Talk:Fort Mose

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WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

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"Mose" or "Mosé"?

The correct spelling of the Spanish name does not have any accents. It is spelled Mose, not Mosé. The name is pronounced like "MO-say." With an accented E, the stress would fall on the accented syllable: "mo-SAY". (Compare the name José.)

I think the article needs a discussion of how the name should be pronounced — not an arbitrary accent. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 13:52, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

The correct Spanish spelling is Mosé, not Mose. Look at [[1]]. There is also a redirect on the Spanish Wikipedia from Fort Mose to Fort Mosé. Please undo what you have done. deisenbe (talk) 15:10, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the Spanish WP article is incorrect. After all, Wikipedia itself is not considered a reliable source for WP articles, and if anything, Spanish WP is even less reliable than English WP. Most Spanish academic sources spell the name Fuerte Mose; here are some examples:

• "En el sudoeste de Fuerte Mose y en el borde del pantano que da al río San Sebastián, se conectó en 1762 a Fuerte Mose con una empalizada."
• "Cabe imaginar la irritación de las colonias vecinas y de las autoridades inglesas ante esta sangría, que trataron de cortar atacando incluso el fuerte Mose, pero entonces los esclavos se refugiaban en el interior de las inexpugnables murallas del fuerte de San Agustín."
• "En junio Montiano atacó el fuerte Mose, tomado por los ingleses, dejando 68 muertos y 34 prisioneros."
• "El fuerte Mose se construyó para ellos, y conoció muchas vicisitudes, así como continuos ataques por parte de los irritados plantadores ingleses."
• "Cuando España cedió en 1763 la Florida a los británicos, los cimarrones del fuerte Mose fueron trasladados a Cuba, entonces colonia española."
• "Cuando España cede en 1763 la península a los británicos, la mayor parte de los cimarrones del fuerte Mose son trasladados a Cuba, entonces colonia española."
• "El fuerte Mose no pudo resistir y fue capturado; mientras, todos los habitantes del poblado huyeron encontrando refugio en el Castillo de San Marcos, amontonándose junto al resto de la población de San Agustín."
• "...me interesa dejar constancia de dos fenómenos ocurridos durante la época española floridana, porque los estimo significativos y precursores: uno se refiere a la existencia del fuerte Mose y a la función..."
• "Varios de ellos se establecieron en la guarnición militar de Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose, cerca de San Agustín, convirtiéndose en soldados al servicio de los españoles."

Carlstak (talk) 16:33, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I made a query about this to the Real Academia Española, which is the highest authority there is on the Spanish language. I'm transcribing the reply I received in its entirety:

Estimado Sr. Eisenberg:

Lamentamos comunicarle que no hemos podido documentar esta denominación (ya sea con la forma de fuerte Mosé/Mose o Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mosé/Mose) en nuestros bancos de datos, ni en diccionarios enciclopédicos del siglo XIX, ni en la hemeroteca de la Biblioteca Nacional. Únicamente hemos podido localizarla en textos del siglo XX en Internet, si bien hemos restringido la búsqueda a libros y textos académicos.

Dado que no tenemos referencia acerca de su origen, únicamente podemos indicarle que, en caso de que la pronunciación sea aguda, deberá escribirse con tilde: fuerte Mosé.

En este sentido se inclinaría la propia versión en inglés de la Wikipedia cuando señala:

«In 1738, the Spanish governor of Florida, Manuel de Montiano, had Fort Mosé (pronounced "Moh-SAY", rhymes with "José") built and established as a free black settlement, the first to be legally sanctioned in what would become the territory of the United States. (https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Fort_Mose_Historic_State_Park).

Reciba un cordial saludo.

__________

Departamento de «Español al día» Real Academia Española

Si quiere disponer de un servicio prioritario u obtener respuestas instantáneas y automáticas a sus consultas, suscríbase a Enclave RAE, la nueva plataforma profesional de servicios lingüísticos: https://enclave.rae.es/herramientas/consultas-linguisticas.

Nombre y apellidos: Daniel Eisenberg Nivel de estudios: Superiores Profesión: Profesor (filólogo) jubilado Correo electrónico: danielbeisenberg@gmail.com Repetir correo electrónico: danielbeisenberg@gmail.com Dirección de contacto: (removed) País de origen: Estados Unidos Consulta: En la Florida española hubo una Fuerte que en unos textos modernos se imprime como Fuerte Mosé, y en otros Mose. ¿Cuál es correcto?

El motivo de la consulta es el de imponer una ortografía uniforme en Wikipedia, donde se encuentran, dedordenadamente, las dos formas. Gracias.

___________________________________________

AVISO LEGAL: El contenido de este mensaje de correo electrónico, incluidos los ficheros adjuntos, es confidencial y está protegido por el artículo 18.3 de la Constitución española, que garantiza el secreto de las comunicaciones. Si usted recibe este mensaje por error, por favor, póngase en contacto con el remitente para informarle de este hecho y no difunda su contenido ni haga copias. Los datos personales que aparecen en esta comunicación, así como los que nuestra empresa conserva de usted y de su empresa, se tratan con la finalidad de mantener el contacto, así como de realizar las gestiones que en esta aparecen (Ley Orgánica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre, de Protección de Datos de Carácter Personal). Puede ejercer sus derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y oposición dirigiéndose a proteccion_de_datos@rae.es.

I'm also going to post this on the Spanish WP. deisenbe (talk) 09:43, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, I defer to the Real Academia Española. I must say, though, that the legal notice is a bit funny, here on the talk page, but hey, organic law has gotta be better than that corporate, Big AG law. Sorry.:-) Carlstak (talk) 01:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

The proper spelling of "Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose" has no acute accent (é), and the given sources prove it.

An editor from Peru, Bankster, has been changing the spelling of Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose in the article with the assertion that "The Spanish name includes a tilde by language conventions". This person may be a native Spanish speaker, but he doesn't even know the difference between the acute accent (é) and the tilde (ñ), which in itself should disqualify him from lecturing other editors on what proper Spanish orthography is. What he calls "language conventions" is unsourced WP:Original Research because, as I've pointed out in edit summaries, the original documents show that the Spanish authorities did not use an acute accent in the spelling of "Mose" in official communications. Not only is he changing the spelling of the name incorrectly, he's also removing the citations of sources that demonstrate this fact. This violates WP policy. Carlstak (talk) 12:20, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

First off, the acute accent's name in Spanish is 'tilde', while the tilde in that language is called a 'virgulilla'. Carlstak may seem to ignore Spanish grammar rules, which may disqualify him from even challenging Spanish orthography. The name 'Fuerte Mosé' in Spanish language has a 'tilde' on its name in its Spanish name, not the English one (as shown in the article's history, this is the one I only modified' because of Spanish orthography regarding phonetics, in which a tilde must be added if a word in the Spanish language has stress on the last syllable if it ends with a vowel (which is the case with Mosé) or if it ends with the letters 'n' or 's'. The irony of this is that Carlstak implied this was unsourced, while there's literally a whole article in Wikipedia about this topic, and even Spanish-language news outlets use the accented name (Outono, ABC.es and even a book). It's more than evident that there exists enough sources to maintain the accented name in Spanish, which may not be the case in English. --Bankster (talk) 00:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

User Bankster is doggedly edit warring to change the spelling of the official Spanish name of Fort Mose. As I said in my last edit summary, Jane Landers writes in Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose: A Free Black Town in Spanish Colonial Florida, p. 15, note 40: "The name is a composite of an existing Indian place name, Mose, the phrase that indicated the new town was established by the king, Gracia Real, and the name of the town's patron saint, Teresa of Avilés, who was the patron saint of Spain." Mose is not a Spanish word, and as such is not subject to Spanish grammar.

The fact that 'Mosé' was originally an Native American word is of no relevance, as with other languages, the Spanish adapted the name to their orthography and turned it into a proper name. This can also be seen in other cities and forts in all Latin America, with Fort Mosé being no exception on its Spanish name only, not the English one. It is subject to Spanish grammar. --Bankster (talk) 01:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

If user Carlstak even bothers to read the link to the book I just embedded in the talk (which he certainly didn't), Kathleen Deagan's chapter on Spanish Pathways in Florida, 1492-1992: Caminos españoles en la Florida uses the accented name in its translated Spanish version: Aunque no es un nombre muy conocido en la historia de la Florida, el Fuerte Mosé fue la primera comunidad negra libre en la América del Norte, sirviendo de escenario para un extraordinario capítulo en la historia de la Florida y de los Estados Unidos. Gran parte de lo que se sabe de Mosé y sus habitantes (incluyendo mucho de lo que aquí se trata) proviene de los estudios hechos por la historiadora Jane Landers. [...] --Bankster (talk) 01:25, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Bankster, your English is sub-par, so perhaps you should stick to Spanish WP. We don't link to sources on Spanish (Peruvian) Google Books for English Wikipedia, we use English Google Books, and you did not give a page number when you cited the book in your edit summary. Surely you noticed that the Spanish Pathways in Florida, 1492-1992: Caminos Españoles en La Florida has two parts, one Spanish, and one English. Kathleen Deagan's chapter was not translated into Spanish by her, she wrote the chapter in English, which is what I naturally referred to. The Spanish translation was done by the book's editors, Ann L. Henderson, Gary R. Mormino, and Carlos J. Cano, who are not authorities on Fort Mose, as Deagan is. You are mistaken, because as I've already pointed out, the primary sources she refers to don't use the acute accent for Mose. Carlstak (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Carlstak, sorry but you won't tell me what to do regarding my involvement in either the English or Spanish Wikipedias, so keep it to yourself. The Spanish and English Google Books are identical in content, I don't know what are you talking about when pointing out the difference between them, which is just the web dominion that is different (.com.pe). Google tracks my location and assigns that dominion automatically, so that issue is completely discarded. And going back to the topic, the primary sources she refers to specifies the English name of the Fort, which bears no accent as English does not use diacritics natively, while in Spanish this is a must and it is specified in the sources I provided. It seems that you're mistaken because I haven't questioned the stance of the English name having no accent, but the Spanish one. --Bankster (talk) 02:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

You should realize, Bankster, that you can control which language version of Google Books you cite. As I said, you didn't give a page number in your edit summary, if you had, then you could have pointed to the Spanish version of her chapter. Since this is English WP, I used the English text of her chapter, and that is what I responded to. How many times do I have to say it? You say you "haven't questioned the stance of the English name having no accent, but the Spanish one", yet you are still ignoring my point that the primary Spanish sources researched by Deagan and Landers don't use the acute accent in Mose. Do you get it? Carlstak (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

You should also know by now that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and can't be used as a reference for a WP article. Carlstak (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

That's enough from both of you. Stop insulting each other. Stop assuming bad faith. Bankster, you have brought compelling evidence for Mosé as correct in Spanish, enough to make me reconsider my position. (I started the "Mose or Mosé?" discussion above and argued for "Mose".) But you haven't made a case for changing the spelling in the article, which should reflect the consensus in English usage, not try to change it. Carlstak, your zeal to point out perceived errors in Bankster's contributions seems to have taken priority over everything else, including reading for comprehension rather than for the detection of weaknesses. You are both cordially invited to stop being jerks. -- ℜob C. alias ALAROB 17:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Alarob, but you're late to the party and we already stopped a day and half ago. I think you're reading too much into this minor contretemps. We had a disagreement that got a little heated, and we've both moved on. I'm contacting Jane Landers, the acknowledged historical authority on Fort Mose to ask her. I've actually found a great article, Fort Mose: Earliest Free African-American Town in the United States, by Landers and Kathleen Deagan, the acknowledged archaeological authority on Fort Mose, that seems to support Bankster's position, except that it was written in 1976; although their orthography for the word "Mose" may have changed since then. I heard both of them speak recently at Fort Mose, and they both pronounce it MOH-say, as our own article says, and which seems to support my position. Carlstak (talk) 18:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Findings from the Mose/Mosé spelling debate

Let me try to summarize the debate about whether to spell the name Mose with or without an acute accent over the final e.

1. The name is probably a Spanish rendering of a Native American name. It is not Spanish in origin. We have no other source for the Native (or possibly African) name.
2. In modern Spanish orthography, the spelling Mose implies normal stress on the penultimate syllable (mo-). If the stress falls on the last syllable (-se) then an acute accent (or tilde in Spanish) over the vowel is correct.
3. In modern Spanish academic writing, both Mose and Mosé are used. Mose may be more common, but we may not have a consensus on that.
4. In 18th-century Spanish manuscripts, both Mose and Mosé are used, but Mosé appears to be more common. Here, too, we may not have a consensus. One area to explore is whether usage within Florida itself and among Spanish criollos differed from usage in Spain and among peninsulares.
5. In English academic writing, Mose is used except when quoting Spanish sources that use the Mosé spelling.
6. It's probably not insignificant that the National Park Service omits the accent mark from the name Fort Mose Historic State Park.

Now, talk amongst yourselves, and keep it civil por favor. -- ℜob C. alias ALAROB 18:07, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Please see above, Alarob. Carlstak (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Jane Landers has graciously replied to my query regarding the question of whether or not Mose should be written with an acute accent on the "e":

"None of the actual documents had any accents over Mose...it's always just been in Spanish Mose...although you'll see on English maps Mossy and other variations. The full name was Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose. (By the Royal Grace...and Santa Teresa was the patron saint of the Spanish military)

In Spanish you would pronounce it stressing the o if there were no accent over the e.

We've always wondered where the name came from. It might have been an indigenous place name because there was an indigenous village at the site of the first Mose...that was ruined by an epidemic.

There is also an African ethnolinguistic group Mossi."

I'm not going to revert the spelling in the article just yet. I want to find a primary Spanish source on microfiche at the St. Augustine Historical Society Library, and a secondary source that explicitly mentions the spelling, if I can find one. Carlstak (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2019 (UTC

I've added information about the history of Mose and the historical research and archaeological work done by the Fort Mose Research Team, with scholarly sources. I've also added an image of the Plano del Sitio de la Florida, a map of St. Augustine, Florida, drawn by Spanish royal engineer Pedro Ruiz de Olano in 1740. It shows the location of Fort Mose, part of the town's defensive network. The text was transcribed and translated by Charles A. Tingley of the St. Augustine Historical Society Research Library, who referred me to documents I've used. Claire Barnewolt and Chad Germany, librarians at the Historical Society Research Library, also provided assistance. The original of the Olano 1740 map in the Archivo General de Indias, accessed through the Portal de Archivos Españoles (PARES), includes the name "Mose" in the legend without the acute accent over the "e": Fortin de tunas y tepes que ocupaban los Negros fugitivos de la Carolina Nombrado Mose.... I've also got microfiche images of communications by Governor Montiano that mention Mose, which I will add to the article when I get a chance. Carlstak (talk) 07:13, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm changing the title to Fort Mose

That's what the article is about. The State Park is by comparison unimportant. deisenbe (talk) 09:55, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring and recent edits made by the user Carlstalk

I am reaching out to express my concern regarding the recent edits made by the user Carlstalk. It has come to my attention that they are attempting to remove valuable information from our shared content. Instead of providing a valid justification for these deletions, the user has inserted the phrase "Learn English," which does not contribute meaningfully to the discussion or enhance the material.

This edit

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I appreciate your attention to this matter and look forward to any potential actions we can take to ensure the quality and relevance of our contributions. 194.230.146.181 (talk) 09:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)