Talk:Forge

Proposed reworking

I would propose this article and that on blacksmith be reworked.

"Forge" is a noun describing first a device/mechanism for heating metal specifically so it can be shaped by deformation of one kind or another. From the device comes the name "forge" for a smithy or blacksmith shop or a factory (where the word would be synonymous with "ironworks"). "Forging" being a verb is about the processes of shaping metal as well as creating counterfiet documents. "Forging" does not necessarily involve a "forge". I believe between the two articles, blacksmithing and forge, which cover about the same topics there could arise some confusion.

I would propose the following reorganization for clarity:

1. The article on "forge" be rewritten to make it more exclusive to the noun meaning device/mechanism for heating. It should contain links to "forging" and "blacksmithing".
2. "Forging" should be established as an article to deal briefly with the aspects of the verb forge/forging (with a recommended link to "forgery" and creating a "forgery" article if it does not exist). This article should have at least three sections:
   • a section defining the verb and giving an overview
   • a section devoted to industrial forging
   • a brief section on forging as a "hand craft" with a link to "blacksmithing"
   • a brief section on "forge" and "forging" as related to "forgery" with a link to that article.
3. "blacksmithing" should be an article on it's own and that article should cover the aspects of "forging" which are more hand craft (I hesitate for some reason to use the term "handicraft") as opposed to topics like drop forging and machining which are more industrial processes.

I believe the foregoing reorganization would fairly logically move elements of each of the articles into groupings that would present the topics involved more intelligibly.

I suspect that the article "blacksmith" should be separated and linked into this reorganization as well.

Comments and replies and discussion are always welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erraunt (talk • contribs) 16:25, 25 August 2005

I've seen no replies or further comments since my previous posting in August. Therefore unless I hear objections I will commence to move elements under "Forging" in this article to that topic, and link to "forge" rather than redirect.

I also intend to adjust the opening paragraphs of this article to clarify the several uses of the term "forge". Erraunt 19:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The article also confuses forges with forging hammers and presses. A forge is a metal heating furnace or the shop where the work ocurs. Hammers and presses are forging hammers and forging presses, eg. Drop-forging is done with a drop-hammer. Heat sources and forming tools should be seperate categories under equipment in the article. Fciron 15:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Anon edit

anon (65.60.182.89) edited the Forge#Forging section by adding the following (red) statement:

Forging results in metal that is stronger than cast or machined metal parts. This is because during forging the metals grain flow changes such that is stronger and more ductile.(note that there is no evidence to support this and it is a common myth)

while ductility may be in question, I'd have thought the strength benefits of forging were undisputed, certainly when compared to older casting methods. However thought ain't fact so, can anyone with more expertise in the field or access to good references reword and, preferably, reference this paragraph? — Graibeard 23:43, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

When using wrought iron (metallurgically speaking) there is a grain in the metal and forging complex shapes is superior to machining. However wrought iron is rarely used today and is primarily an art material. I can speak to the use of different metals in blacksmithing and will look through the material and my references.Fciron 15:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

(re: the myth about forged articles) Cast metal necessarily contains a certain degree of porosity. These small holes (formed by gas inclusions) act as focal points for the development of cracks. When any cast metal article is wrought (ie; worked under a hammer at welding (white) heat) these porosity holes are closed up. ¶ In lieu of retaining the services of blacksmiths in modern steel mills, the bars being produced are subjected to "rolling mills" to effect the same purpose. Most modern steel is worked into the stock which is sold to consumers, as either HRS (Hot Rolled Steel) or CRS (Cold Rolled Steel). HRS is rolled at a glowing heat to effect the compression and welding-shut of the porosity. On purchase, HRS will be seen to have a noticeable firescale still attached to the surface. CRS is subjected to the same rolling, but in a cool state which leaves a better surface. On purchase, CRS has a smooth gray surface. Additionally, both hammering bars, and rolling billets leads to an elongation of the crystal-units (grain) which form the bulk of any metal. This produces a difference in the tensile strength of the bar whether you are measuring with or across the grain. In (metallurgical) wrought-iron, the ratio of these strengths is as 20:17. ¶ If that is not enough to convince one that forged metal parts are stronger than cast, then one might ask why industry invests in equipment to "drop-forge" metal parts. Here, a metal blank is placed on a bottom die, and a top die attached to a very large weight which is then dropped. The metal blank is squashed between the 2 dies, deforming to fill the cavity of the dies. Upon removing the article from the dies, the 'flash' is removed from the parting line (deburred), and the article is ready. It is just as easy to cast the parts for a wrench, but the drop-forged wrench will advertise how it was created by actually saying "drop-forged" on it. It is a valid selling point, and a much stronger tool. ¶ Further, cold machining does not renormalize the crystalline structure of the finished article. Something as simple as a drill-hole becomes a weakened stress point - subject to breaking there at some point in the future. In contrast, in hot forging the metal is repeatedly heated and cooled, and somewhere along the way annealed, so that the stresses worked into the metal by shaping are relieved. It's not a myth, you really can end up with a better,stronger article by forging. What you can't get is a more precisely dimensioned or cheaper article. Forged articles MAY be worked further into precise dimensions by careful filing and scraping, but this additional work only worsens the price disparity. In the future, we will demand less for less; and strangely enough, we will get just that. 68.37.59.70 03:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Blacksmiths not here anymore

blacksmiths are not here today because we now have factories that makes the metal. In medieval times, people would have blacksmiths make their weapons for them, and in return, they would get charcoal from the lord. The stronger the metal was, the better the blacksmith was. Usually more people would come to the blacksmith whose metal is strong enought to go through a person without losing it's head.

Factories do the same think blacksmiths do, only they are more complex, and dont break down as easily. Blacksmiths could get tired and decide to quite, while factory machines dont ever quit, they keep on going. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.55.152 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 7 June 2006

Blacksmiths in mediaeval times did not by-and-large make weapons. I have no problem with weapons but I wish people would stop getting confused between blacksmiths and bladesmiths (and farriers come to that). They produced domestic items; fire dogs, fire tools, cooking items, belt knives, fire-strikers etc. etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.255.242 (talk) 20:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

FYI blacksmiths ARE here today. There are a large number of people who supplement income by blacksmithing and many who are employed full time. Here is a link to an organization I, as well as thousands of other modern day blacksmiths, am a member of www.abana.org/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.17.115.253 (talk) 15:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Good article candidacy?

This is a really nice little article. With the addition of some good refs I think it's worthy of being nominated as a WP:GA. Chris Cunningham 11:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No it isn't especially when it redirects from something that isn't even mentioned in the article.

The grammar and punctuation are also appalling, especially in the first section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.206.111 (talk) 09:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Forge/smithy

It should be made clear that: A "smithy" is a building, in which a "smith" practices his/her craft. A "forge" is a tool used to contain and control the fire used in this craft. A forge is housed in, and a necessary adjunct to, a smithy. The art of 'working metal at/in the forge' was shortened to the verb "forging". 68.37.59.70 02:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC) 27jul2007

Semantically this may possibly be correct, but the position is not quite so simple. Smithy is also the vernacular for a bloomery. Forge can also refer to the whole building of a plating forge or finery forge. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest adding a "List of Forging Companies"

I believe it may be useful to add a list of forging companies sorted by geogpraphical location. I think this could become long, so it should be on a seperate page. Celiksanayi 14:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This might be a better idea to add to the Forging article Wizard191 (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I am far from sure that this is a good idea, as it would attract linkspam from every working blacksmith. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

FORGE WORK

Bold text —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.220.15.146 (talk) 14:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Firebox

This article seems like it could use at least a summary explanation of different designs of fireboxes, or at least an explanation of the firebox, as well as an explanation of clinker and clinker breakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.17.115.253 (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Drop Forging

I corrected a mistake in the description of drop forging. The article incorrectly said the name comes from the dropping of the workpiece into the forge. It does not. The name comes from freely dropping the hammer onto the workpiece. The hammer is carefully aligned with the anvil, and constrained by the machine to fall onto the workpiece. But once released there is nothing but gravity moving the hammer. The alternative is called Press Forging. In this process the forging machine forces the two halves of the die together using hydraulic rams or some other power source. Nick Beeson (talk) 18:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Assessment

I have in the past probably contributed to this article. I came here, wondering whether to revert some recent edits, which I have decided not to do. As it currently stands, it is almost wholly devoted to blacksmith's shops, and their larger scale equivalents. However blacksmiths shops are not the only thing that are called forges. Other kinds of forges are involved in making iron. Perhaps confusingly the vernacular term for a water powered bloomery forge is also a "smithy". We also have finery forges, covered in this article by a title and main link. However the term is also applied in processes used in the subsequent period for rolling (in the "forge train") iron from the puddling furnace and later (mild steel) processes into long products. How do we resolve this issue? Peterkingiron (talk) 11:03, 19 May 2016 (UTC)