Talk:Folk rock

Bad content forking

To clarify on the tags I placed, there is a huge amount of WP:COATRACK regarding 1960s folk and rock music. Demonstrating my point is the fact that there is actually more info about the British Invasion here than at the actual British Invasion article. More examples:

Although there had been a few sporadic British successes in the U.S. charts prior to 1964, notably the Tornados' hit instrumental "Telstar", the British Invasion began in earnest in January 1964 when the Beatles' "I Want to Hold Your Hand" single reached number 1 on the Billboard Hot 100. This was followed by the American release of Meet the Beatles!, an LP that topped the Billboard album chart in February 1964 and went on to influence many forms of American popular music during the 1960s. In February 1964 the Beatles embarked on their first North American tour, during which they made three television appearances on the popular Ed Sullivan Show; their first appearance drew an estimated viewing audience of 73 million. By 4 April 1964, the Beatles held the top five positions on the Billboard singles chart, the only time to date that any act has accomplished such a feat.

The nucleus of the Byrds formed in early 1964, when Jim McGuinn, Gene Clark, and David Crosby—united by a shared love of the Beatles' music—came together under the moniker of the Jet Set at The Troubadour folk club in Los Angeles. The trio all had a background in folk music, with each member having worked as a folk singer on the acoustic coffeehouse circuit during the early 1960s. In addition, they had also spent time, independently of each other, in various folk groups, including the New Christy Minstrels, the Limeliters, the Chad Mitchell Trio, and Les Baxter's Balladeers. Soon after forming the Jet Set, Crosby introduced McGuinn and Clark to his associate Jim Dickson, who became the group's manager. Dickson had access to World Pacific Studios in Los Angeles, which he began to utilize as a rehearsal space for the band. During the course of 1964, the trio expanded their ranks to include drummer Michael Clarke and bassist Chris Hillman, with the band eventually changing their name to the Byrds in November.

Great info, only problem is that it has nothing to do with folk rock. Per WP:DETAIL, a lot of this material needs to be moved somewhere else, like 1960s in music, Folk revival, British Invasion, Bob Dylan, the Byrds, Cultural impact of the Beatles, and Contemporary folk. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 23:43, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Most of it was added by Kohoutek1138 in a major expansion in 2010 (see thread up above), so it would be worth getting their opinion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:31, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't mind if some of the text/information that I added is relocated, as long as attribution is maintained. However, I think we also need to be careful not to eliminate material that provides context within this article. For instance, the Beatles' adoption of folk/protest elements and how the band first encountered them in Bob Dylan's music, along with George Harrison's distinctive 12-string Rickenbacker sound and its influence on the Byrds and folk rock in general, are all just as relevant to this article as they might be to the Cultural impact of the Beatles one. Likewise, the fact that this article may contain more information about the British Invasion than the British Invasion article does, is not, in and of itself, a good enough justification to delete content from this article and relocate it.

That said, if others do legitimately feel that some text here should be relocated, I guess I'm fine with that, with the caveat being my point about maintaining context in this article. I happen to think that an awful lot of what is written in the Folk revival section, for instance, is pretty relevant to any reader attempting to understand how the sub-genre of folk rock came to be.

Also, regarding where to move stuff to, as someone who has worked very closely on the Byrds article, I can say with 100% certainty that there is nothing in this article that isn't already in the Byrds one. So, I would definitely advise against moving anything from this page over there. Kohoutek1138 (talk) 13:22, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, having just had a look at Ilovetopaint's recent edits, I think he/she needs to tread very carefully here. The fact that this user mistakenly believes that jangle pop predates folk rock (when the very term "jangle pop" was coined in the mid-80s to describe a guitar-based sub-genre from that decade), that he's removing information that is clearly supported by inline refs, and the addition of "according to whom" type tags, when "who" it is that has made these points is obvious from the cited refs is worrisome. They've done much good work to this article, to be sure, but we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am going to reinstate some of the deleted material and also reword parts, citing the critics in question, to try and remove the "according to whom" tags. Kohoutek1138 (talk) 13:40, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

After looking at this article for a while and trying to work though it, I agree that the large Antecedents section is unhelpful. There is too much of it for this general encyclopedia article on folk rock. Because of the importance and complexity of the subject it is appropriate and helpful to have some introduction to the origins of the genre, though the current 20 kB of text (3,301 words) is too long - that amounts to 1/3 of the entire article. I also wonder how much is strictly relevant to the subject matter of folk rock - the first paragraph of the Folk revival sub-section, with material such as "By 1951, however, the [Weavers] had fallen afoul of the U.S. Red Scare of the McCarthy era, and as a result they disbanded in 1952.", may be relevant to the American folk music revival, but is too detailed and too distant to be relevant here. I'm not sure how helpful it would be to work though the three thousand words to trim them. I suspect it would be easier to remove them entirely and replace them with a freshly written paragraph. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

Howdy, Wiki editors! I will be working on this article as part of a class assignment for the next few weeks. I hope to contribute to this article and collaborate with all of you, and any input you have and any changes you can make that will make the article better will be greatly appreciated.

Aside from this article, I will be editing the British Invasion article, so I will hopefully be able to help with edit this section and make it appear more as a summary as Wiki guidelines have suggested. I think that the lead introduction has parallels and repeated information within “Definition and Etymology” section that can be edited. Also, there are a lot of long sections and subsections. Like some of you mentioned, the Antecedents and 1960s sections are very long and very detailed. Perhaps we could summarize and link the Byrds and Dylan subsections to their main articles so it could read more like a general encyclopedia article?

Thanks! Luridshadow (talk) 18:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Welcome Luridshadow! I added a lot of the content present in this article and, as noted in the discussion above, I don't mind if some of the text/information I added is relocated, as long as attribution is maintained. However, I think we also need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water and eliminate material that provides context within this article. For instance, the Beatles' adoption of folk/protest elements and how the band first encountered them in Bob Dylan's music, along with George Harrison's distinctive 12-string Rickenbacker sound and its influence on the Byrds and folk rock in general, are all just as relevant to this article as they might be to the Cultural impact of the Beatles one.

As an aside, I've worked very closely on the Byrds article and added a lot of material, bringing it up to Good Article status, and I can say with 100% certainty that there is nothing in this article that isn't already in the Byrds one. So, I would advise against relocating anything there. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 12:04, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Kohoutek1138, I'm considering separating/bringing out to focus the 12-string guitar section under the British Invasion section because I think that it is a pretty important instrument within Folk music. Any thoughts or suggestions for or against?

Thanks! Luridshadow (talk) 20:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Go for it. Be bold! It's not my place to say "yay" or "nay", since it's the community's article. If I or another editor have a problem with your edits, they'll revert them and explain why in the edit summary. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 21:04, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Howdy again! I tried to summarize the American Folk Music Revival Section, Bob Dylan, and the Byrds. It is currently in my Sandbox and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind taking a look at it before I try to make the changes to the main page. User:Luridshadow/sandbox

Thanks again! Luridshadow (talk) 20:53, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Luridshadow.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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How could Dylan have been influenced by a song that wasn't recorded yet?

"Dylan's decision to record with an electric backing band had been influenced by a number of factors, including the Beatles' coupling of folk derived chord progressions and beat music, the Byrds' rock adaptation of "Mr. Tambourine Man." This makes little sense. As it is stated just above that the recording of Bringing it all Back Home was wrapped up before the Byrds recorded Mr. Tambourine Man. 80.216.164.75 (talk) 20:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The Byrds' version of "Mr. Tambourine Man" influenced Dylan to record with an electric band because he had come to one of the Byrds' rehearsals in late 1964 and listened to them play it. He liked what the band had done with his song and enthusiasticly exclaimed, "Wow, man! You can dance to that!" This was some months before the start of recording sessions for Bringing It All Back Home. The "Mr. Tambourine Man" article and the main Byrds article have more details on this. I have now added a brief comment with supporting reference explaining this in the relevant "Bob Dylan" section of the article. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 16:19, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Kohoutek1138 Thanks for the clarification! 37.205.120.73 (talk) 08:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)