Talk:Flag of Wales

Merge

Does anyone else think that Y Ddraig Goch should be merged with this? - calum 17:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Flag of Saint David

How come that is not the national flag? I think it is a political statement that England's Saint George the Dragonslayer rules over Wales's Dragon. Besides, isn't the dragon a pagan symbol and aren't most Welsh people deeply Christian? Éponyme 18:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The Red Dragon is likely to be Celtic in Origin, and I feel that it symbolizes the fact that Wales is still a part celtic country. Although many religious groups have wanted to change the flag it has been upholded by traditional beliefs--McFlame 19:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Satanic?

Is there any reason for any of this "opposition" section to exist? A new political party surfaces and announces the dragon is satanic; fails to be elected; disappears off Google. What is encyclopedic about this? I can't find the party website, only stories in the press from around the time of the election. A case of undue weight? Telsa (talk) 18:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

In the absence of replies, I have been bold. Zap. Telsa (talk) 09:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Two flags

Why is there both and on Wikipedia? 212.137.63.86 (talk) 12:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Malta

hate to be pedantic but where's the dragon on the maltese flag? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.73.132.82 (talk) 09:59, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Not that I added the information to the article, but if you go to the Flag of Malta, enlarge the top flag, and within the George Cross is St George on horseback attacking the dragon. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion it's a bit tenuous to claim the dragon as a design element of the Maltese flag. OK, theoretically there's an image of Pistrucci's St George slaying the dragon in the middle of the George Cross, but in practice nobody would ever be able to see it if they were looking at the Maltese flag flying on a flagpole. I'm going to de-emphasise it. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Here is the question. Is there, or isn't there a dragon on the Maltese flag? Yes or no. Size is not an issue. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is, and it deserves to be mentioned in this article. However it is a bit obscure, and so I am quite happy with Arwel's change. I'm not sure why you say that size is not an issue - remember that this is an article about the Welsh flag, not about flags with dragons on. Bazonka (talk) 07:09, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Fair point, I too think the update is fine. I hit the talk page before seeing the ammendment. FruitMonkey (talk) 08:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Exclusion

I am waiting to hear why the Cross of St George is not the official flag of Wales seeing as it represents Wales on the country's sovereign flag, the Union Flag. I am sure there is a valid reason why the official Welsh flag is not the English flag but this article does not deal with it at all.219.89.230.157 (talk) 09:48, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

The section on exclusion is over-written: Wales is not represented in the Union flag because it was considered part of England; oh and a bit of trivia that the Daily Telegraph had a fun competition to add Wales in. No one of great noteworthiness proposed the image shown, the shown image does not represent any great significance. May as well try to find a still from The Simpsons with a Welsh flag in the background, that would have just as much significance. 81.97.131.168 (talk) 22:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The same could be said of the paragraph that starts: In 2007, the Welsh Christian Party adopted the stance that the Red Dragon was a symbol of the devil... I'll add Template:Importance-section to both sections. Ham 20:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

so the consensus is to remove both parts? Tinynanorobots (talk) 22:59, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Welsh Dragon Memorial Mametz Wood.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Before 1959

Whilst editing, my reason for doing so was cut short. Simply because the Welsh Flag was "accepted" by the British Heraldic establishment in 1959 does not mean it was not used by the people of Wales before that. (It quite obviously was, as any discussion with any Welsh person born before 1959 will show.) However, that is immaterial, as the onus of proof is on someone to prove that the use of the Welsh flag at the election of Lloyd George was wrong or anachronistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.254.249 (talk) 01:43, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Just one quote from BBC history site after quick google search, " in Caernarfon in 1911, at the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales, the flag appeared in its current form" . This takes it back well before 1959, and it may well have been used by Welsh people rather than the British establishment establishment before then. If it were up to someone to prove it was used before 1959 I would look for (much) better references than the BBC, but as I say, it is up to someone who wishes the deleted section to stand to prove that the deleted reference is incorrect/anachronistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.254.249 (talk) 02:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

A photo of the Welsh Flag ("in its current form") being flown at the International Six Day Trials (motorcycle event) at Llandrindod Wells in 1938 on this site- http://speedtracktales.com/index-of-isdt-events/isdt-1938-wales/

Just one piece of evidence showing that the use of the Welsh flag before 1959 is not "incorrect" or "anachronistic".Ceiniog (talk) 11:53, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Did you mean this photo? It's so small that there's no way to be certain that the flag is identical to the modern one. For example, in a small grainy photo this particular flag may well appear to be identical to the modern one, but clearly it isn't!--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:22, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I mean the flag which both you and I linked to. It is quite obviously the Welsh flag, as is the second one you link to. What is your point? The second image is the Welsh flag. Assuming you (for some reason) think the dragon in the second link is a bit different (to whatever you have unilaterally decided a Welsh dragon should look like), the dragon appears in many different forms on the flag, there is no official version of it. It appears in many different forms on Welsh flags. The one you link to is not particularly unusual.

I would suggest you invest in a pair of reading glasses if you cannot see the obvious Welsh flag in the 1938 photo. Ceiniog (talk) 00:27, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, on rereading, that last sentence of mine is unfair. You are obviously not saying you cannot see it, just that you can not be sure that the dragon is exactly the same form as- well, whatever. I apologise for the last sentence, but refer you to the first paragraph of my answer. Ceiniog (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:46, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

In fact, I may have fallen foul of not assuming "good faith", if that is the term? I apologise further for the tone of my answering text! But if you could read the facts in it rather than the rather confrontational tone, I would be obliged.

Thank you for your interest on this subject! 00:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)Ceiniog (talk)

So, just to establish in a better way than I did above the point I am making! The Welsh flag consisting of a red dragon on a white and green background was used by the Welsh people as the Welsh flag long before 1959. Ok, "how long before?" I have no idea! But the deleted text said that it was "inaccurate" and "anachronistic" in 1890. As the flag (red dragon on white and green background) was used by Welsh people as the Welsh flag before 1959, it us up to someone who wants the text to stand to prove that it is "anachronistic". If the form of the red dragon was less uniform as you go back in in time (I would guess this is correct!) this still does not mean that any form of the Welsh flag is "anachronistic". The form seems to have gone from "many different forms" to "one form", rather than from "one form" to " another form" if you see what I mean. So the dragons tail seems to gave gone from sometimes pointing down and sometimes pointing up to always pointing up.

And the 1959 date seems to be a bit of an irrelevance in the way the people of Wales use the flag, (but that is a debate for a different issue concerning the flag!)

This does not mean if a Welsh flag was used in 1890, it would not have had a dragon resembling the ones today in all such points. (Not that there are many such points!)

Therefore, I believe the text I deleted should stay deleted unless someone can link to evidence as to why the use of some form of a red dragon on a white and green background as a Welsh flag by a group of Welsh people would be anachronistic in 1890. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceiniog (talk • contribs) 01:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Heraldic penis?

There is currently a petition going to the Senedd about whether the flag should have a penis which has attracted some national news attention (Daily Mail; Express). The depiction of the flag on this page currently has a penis, but this doesn't appear to be normative. Should the image be neutered to reflect this?

Modern flag

The current exact version of the flag may be more recent than 1959. Issue 088 (Winter 1997) of the Flag Institute's journal, Flagmaster, refers to the 'design of the dragon approved in 1970'. Issue 142 (from 2012) of the same publication states that the 'pattern was defined in 1973'. Both referencing the current design. Christian Fogd Pedersen's International Flag Book in Colour (published 1971 for English language version, original Danish publication in 1970) illustrates a slightly different version of the dragon which it states is the correct version, and which appears to be virtually identical (except for having the normal background of white over green stripes) to the form of dragon shown (albeit on a green mound rather than stripe) in this link https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gb-w-col.gif in the Flags of the World website page https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-wales.html. This indicates the pre-1953 & 1959-1970/1973 flag is different from the current design. Domhnallbeag (talk) 20:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Cadwaladr Myth

The use of the flag by Cadwaladr is potentially a (long standing) myth based on the available sources born out of a historical misunderstanding. While not a a reputable source on it's own, there's a well researched video on the topic whose sources seem to stand up to scrutiny. - LoomCreek (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I just removed citations 5 and 6 as well as it can easily be verified that those citations do not mention or support the claim whatsoever, however I am new to Wikipedia editing and believe I made a mistake in my formatting of the citation needed which could possibly be fixed by someone who is experienced. I think I was supposed to add the reason for the citation needed inside the <ref> but instead did so in my edit summary. Therydog100 (talk) 21:09, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

No worries! Your edit summary is fine in explaining the removals. For adding the tag you would add a standalone template that would look like the following "{{Template:Citation needed}}" it would not be place inside <ref>, similarly useful is "{{Template:Better source needed}}"

- LoomCreek (talk) 21:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Appreciate it! Saw your change and it does make quite a bit more sense. Therydog100 (talk) 21:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The information is longstanding on this page but was unsourced until this edit [1] which was a copy/paste from other pages where this was being tried. Llywelyn (2017) has been discussed before. It is a masters thesis in creative writing (written in Welsh) that follows Turvey quite closely. It is not a WP:RS in my opinion. Not only is it a masters thesis, not a Ph.D., it is not in history, and there is a lack of critical analysis of the sources. This information should never have been added. I'll excise it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

In fairness, it seems like this was already a very long-standing historical myth, a very long game of telephone mentioned over at least a few hundred years. It's less an indictment of Wikipedia, and more the muddling of sources over time. - LoomCreek (talk) 00:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

It could still be worth mentioning the misnomer, for the sake of acknowledging the mythos around it. Because people did/do actually refer to it as the "Red Dragon of Cadwaladr" it was just hundreds and hundreds of year later, built on a false idea. The mural that was included for example, (which I believe was first made in 1919?) - LoomCreek (talk) 00:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that we should mention the misunderstanding, but we shouldn’t refer to it as the “Red Dragon of Calawaladr” because it had no association with him. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 04:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

We probably shouldn't refer to it as the "Red Dragon of Cadwaladr" ourselves, but that name should be mentioned somewhere in the text given it's an alternative name by now (just because it's historically inaccurate doesn't mean it isn't an alternative name), or at the very least something mentioning Cadwaladr should be mentioned (there are currently no mentions of Cadwaladr I can see in the article). Skarmory (talk • contribs) 17:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Lost track of which article this was about. Not sure if a mention is necessary here, but on Welsh Dragon it should be (which has the same lack of Cadwaladr mentions). Apologies. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 20:56, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@LoomCreek and Sirfurboy: I posted on the YouTube video, mentioning your actions. The host (Dr Williams is it?) was appreciative, and I thank you both on his behalf. Narky Blert (talk) 06:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. @LoomCreek, I left mention under Henry VII but that has now been removed too. The facts were already correctly described in the Cadwaladr page based on suitable historical sources. That states that the dragon became associated with Cadwaladr after Henry VII began to use it. See the section Cadwaladr and the Wars of the Roses.

The problem with this article and Welsh dragon is that these articles were edited by an editor who persistently used newspapers and the BBC as a basis for editing articles, inserting those as the sources, and then would shoehorn in other sources when challenged. This happened in many articles, some of which have now been deleted and the editor was eventually topic banned from Welsh articles (because there were also POV issues. In this case an attempt to remove the English kings from the story). There is still cleanup to do. This is a textbook example of why editors should not start editing a history article based on something they read on a BBC/newspaper page. Any mention of Cadwaladr should be under the Henry VII usage, showing how, after his usage of the dragon, it became associated with Cadwaladr. This may be done per the Cadwaladr page. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:53, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and more specifically, the association with Calawaladr was made by Alexander Nisbet in An Essay on the Ancient and Modern Use of Armories in 1718. We should note this in the article if we can find a good secondary source to support this. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Speaking of which, any thoughts on this text I found at Cadwaladr?

"During the Wars of the Roses the prophecies connected to Cadwaladr were used by various contenders as part of their claim to the throne. This was linked to the story of the struggle between the Red Dragon and the White Dragon, part of the myth of Merlin, interpreted as warring Celtic and Saxon peoples. Edward IV claimed to be restoring the authentic ancient lineage of Cadwaladr, thus fulfilling Merlin's prophecy of the victory of the red dragon. His chancellor gave a sermon asserting that 'the British line, which perished with Cadwallader's exile in 689 was restored by the arrival of Edward the king prophesied by Merlin and others.'"

Could this reference an earlier mention of the dragon which Cambrian Chronicles didn't pick up? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

We can't mention Nisbet at this stage because that claim is only in the YouTube video, which is a self published source. Should the video maker publish their research, we would have a source to follow, but it is likely any claim would merely say this is the first known source, not that the association was made by Nisbet. Either way, at this point, we don't have a source to follow. It is well established that the association with Cadwaladr followed Henry VII coming to power, and we don't have to specify the exact date it occurred (but given sources we would). As for the piece about Edward IV on the Cadwaladr page, that is indeed in the source, which has, inter alia,

Neville was the political brains. His sermons allude to the prophecies of Merlin and the angel to Cadwallader, claiming that the British line, which perished with Cadwallader’s exile in 689, was restored with the arrival of Edward the king prophesied by Merlin and others.

And it is not just Edward (and the people behind him) who were making such claims. Henry VII also made claims to cast himself as the prince of Wales and ruler of prophecy. The link to Cadwaladr was certainly being made at this point. What was not being said was that the red dragon was the flag (or arms) of Cadwaladr. That came later, but it came about because Henry VII and others were making these genealogical claims. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Narky Blert Happy to hear! Thanks for the heads up LoomCreek (talk) 19:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Lifeschool: I updated the page a bit today to make it clearer about Saint Cadwaladr and his connection to the Welsh flag, but some revisions were reverted. "Henry Tudor popularised it's use in heraldry after falsely claimed to have descended from Cadwaladr, a later 7th Century ruler of Gwynedd, to legitimize his kingship claim over Britain."

It is a fact that Henry did this. Take a look at the Henry VII page. It gives a reference of:

• Mackie, John Duncan (1952). The Earlier Tudors, 1485–1558. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-198-21706-0.

If the word '"falsely" is an issue, then just edit that out.

As for "of Cadwallader" The Cadwaladr page uses this reference for the claim: Dobin, Howard, Merlin's Disciples: Prophecy, Poetry, and Power in Renaissance England, Stanford University Press, 1990, p.51. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeschool (talk • contribs) 20:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi Lifeschool, just to note, we usually sign our comments at the end. Just add four tildes (~~~~). Also to note that Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia, so when adding information, include the references on this page. Bear in mind that referenced information on another page could be removed. Thirdly, bear in mind that the lead section summarises main text so be careful not to add anything in the lead that is not covered in the body of the article. Happy editing. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing this. Much appreciated. Titus Gold (talk) 16:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

First modern use - could someone please add this to the article

Some evidence has come to light of the first modern use of the dragon on a flag or draped standard.

1. 1840 Liverpool Eisteddfod; silk dragon standard draped over a chair (Jobbins, page 43); suggestions for an "order of Knighthood for Wales" and suggestion of a golden dragon drape, Carnarvon & Denbigh Herald 1, the report of the event cited a red dragon with a motto "y ddraig goch a ddyle gychwyn", Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald 2
2. 1842 Abergavenny Eisteddfod; banners used with a red dragon (Illustrated London News)
3. Ship Mimosa in 1865 (Jobbins, page 40), (Sea Breezes) etc.

Could someone add this to the article, please? Would be much appreciated, thanks. Titus Gold (talk) 16:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)