Talk:Finger vibrato

Removed text

There are three main types; arm vibrato, produced by moving the entire arm, wrist vibrato, in which the wrist moves to and fro instead of the arm, and of course, finger vibrato, in which the finger stopping the sounding string(s) moves up and down. That is, as the finger approaches the fingerboard, as soon as the note has first sounded, the finger move away ever so slightly, and then moves back to the fingerboard, and this proscess repeats for as long as the player wishes.

This is inaccurate on several grounds. Firstly, you can't have it both ways... either arm vibrato and wrist vibrato are types of finger vibrato (as I believe) or they are not. Describing the third type as true finger vibrato might solve this I guess. But it's not really a matter of types at all... there's a continuum from finger-only movement through wrist movement to whole arm movement, with no clear dividing line between these three techniques, and actual playing often combining two or more of them.

Secondly, the finger doesn't approach or move away from the fingerboard. It moves but remains in contact with the string, which is itself in contact with the fingerboard (or with a fret on a fretted instrument).

No. This isn't an accurate description of finger vibrato. I use finger vibrato regularly on both fretted and unfretted instruments, and I think this description was written by someone who has seen the technique but doesn't understand how it is done. Andrewa 06:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the guitar vibrato definition needs expanding somewhat, I think to say something like the is more accurate. "Vibrato on the guitar is created by tones rapidly alternating between the tonic and a quarter tone for the duration of a note (keep this open that way the reader will learn vibrato can last a crotchet, sambrieve, quaver etc.). Vibrato can be created by rapidly bending(link to bending article) the string alternately between the tonic and the quartertone,alternatively vibrato is created by moving the finger from side to side quickly thus alternating between the tonic and the quarter note, this technique is used with slide guitar." do excuse the word 'tonic' being overused there's another word but it won't come to mind, please comment on whether something like this can be used instead and point out any ammendments. --Mikeoman 01:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Axial and radial vibrato

I don't know if there are correct terms for axial and radial vibrato, but I know both techniques exist, and I didn't see any other easy way to distinguish between them, so I put those terms in. If someone else knows correct terms, feel free to fix this.

-- TimNelson 08:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Rename?

At least for guitar, vibrato and string bending are all subsets of the technique what one might call "left-handed pitch shifting". I'd suggest a rename to the more general definition, but only if there's a good name for it. Would "Head-hand pitch-shifting" be an appropriate name, as it refers to the hand closer to the head? -- TimNelson 10:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I note that no other pages link to this page. If you think about what other pages should link here, and why, that may well give you useful ideas for how this page should be named. CaughtLBW 11:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No other pages link where? There are plenty of other pages linking to Finger vibrato. No-one's linking to the talk page, sure, but to the main page they are.

-- TimNelson 05:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Nobody calls string bending "radial pitch-shifting", and it's not a variant of finger vibrato, so it's not useful to merge the articles or look for an artificial term like "head-hand pitch-shifting" (there's no such thing as a "head hand", too). We should unmerge the articles. Bending is for reaching a note, vibrato for adding an effect to it.Herringgull2 06:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You can add my voice to your cause- Vibrato is the radical moving of different pitches whereas with a bend is slower and doesn't always return have to the tonic, please unmerge them, it's misleading--Mikeoman 23:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal withdrawn in favour of the naming proposal below -- TimNelson (talk) 03:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The vibrato a violinist uses is never called "finger vibrato". It's either wrist or arm vibrato. TheScotch (talk) 10:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Move proposal

• Move to Tone bending. This technique can be done on non-string instruments such as synthesizers with pitch bend levers or wheels. Badagnani (talk) 22:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Nah, don't agree. See Naming proposal below -- TimNelson (talk) 03:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Naming proposal

I think the problem here is that we're describing two different tonal effects, and a variety of methods of achieving them on different instruments. I think what needs to happen here is that:

• The vibrato-specific information needs to be merged into the Vibrato page
• The bending information needs to be put on a separate page
• Cross-references between he two need to be established
• This page needs to be converted to a disambiguation page

Thoughts all?

-- TimNelson (talk) 03:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is simply that people have added off-topic material. The article was originally about finger vibrato. Finger vibrato is a good topic, with plenty of material if it's allowed to grow on-topic. Merging it into the vibrato article isn't disaster, but it's unnecessary, and means we miss the opportunity to clarify the confusing situation regarding so-called vibrato units and tremolo arms. So IMO we'll have a better encyclopedia if we take the more difficult course and simply restore this article to on-topic material. Andrewa (talk) 10:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I didn't mean to start an edit war by that last comment. I'll post a comment on User talk:Badagnani and suggest they join in the discussion. Andrewa (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I agree with Tim Nelson. This article is pretty confused about vibrato, and it isn't just the "off-topic" material. For one thing, no violin-family instrument uses a vibrato anyone who really plays a violin-family instrument ever calls "finger vibrato". TheScotch (talk) 10:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

That may well be true about the violin, and if true and verifiable should be said in the article. But the technique is a fact, and the term finger vibrato is well established among guitarists. If there's a better term for this technique when applied to other instruments, then suggest it. Andrewa (talk) 13:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed split

Most of the guitar techniques described here are off-topic, which seems to have been the motivation for the renaming request above.

The problem is, the non-guitar material is on-topic, encyclopedic, and this is the place for it.

So we need an article - a separate article - on the related guitar techniques. Bend (guitar) seems the best title to me, or is there a better one? It would at least be a place to start, and if there's a better term, we can move it there in due course.

This also has the advantage that such a split would essentially reverse a merge of some time ago, thus restoring the article history. Then if the topic is moved, this history will follow it. Andrewa (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I second the proposed split; as the article stands, it's dreadful - string bending is a specific part of guitar playing, with its own terminology and, recently, even equations to describe bending. It is distinct from vibrato, and having it in here makes no sense. Can we start that Bend (guitar) page? I'm happy to add relevant equations and acoustic science part. Drg85

Radial Pitch-shifting ??

I've been playing, composing for, teaching, and writing about guitar for 35 years and I've never before encountered the term "radial pitch shifting" to describe string/pitch bends. While the term may be descriptive from a psychoacoustical perspective, the vast majority of musicians who employ the technique are unlikely to ever refer to it my this phrase, and therefor the general public is even less likely to encounter it.

I'd suggest just calling pitch- or string-bends ... pitch-bends or string-bends. [[[Special:Contributions/208.100.240.10|208.100.240.10]] (talk) 21:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)]

It's developed into an appallingly bad article! Most of it is off-topic and unsourced. The particular phrases you mention aren't a part of any sort of established guitar technique that I've come across in 45 years of playing in many different styles, either. I suspect they're the personal theories of the contributors or their teachers. We have the same problems with the various articles on cymbals, but worse... Some cymbal companies spent the second half of the 20th century very successfully selling cymbals by means of transparent lies in their product literature, things that any metallurgist would have said couldn't possibly be true. (I happen to be both a drummer and a metallurgist's son, so they didn't wash with me.) The result is that the confident sales jive in most cymbal shops in the world is to this day 100% rubbish, as is much of what is printed in what would at first glance seem reliable secondary sources, and most drummers believe at least some of it.

Anyway, the lesson is, in any sort of popular culture there's a lot of folklore!

I'm beginning to wonder whether it might be better to merge this article somewhere after all. Finger vibrato may well be a term that only guitarists use, and even then only those guitarists who are cross-genre enough to be exposed to several different things called vibrato, including of course the "vibrato" produced by the original Fender "vibrato units" and their imitators. On most instruments, and in most styles of guitar if you stick to one genre, vibrato means something quite specific, and so there's no need for a classical guitarist for example to say finger vibrato because they never use any other type. They just call it vibrato and perhaps arrogantly decide that for example surf band guitarists don't know what the word really means.

Pity, it's an encyclopedic topic, and there's no other unambiguous name for it that I've seen suggested yet. But the article as it stands isn't worth a lot IMO. Andrewa (talk) 02:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)