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Why is there a redirect for "Ali Fakhr-al-Din II"?!
editAny source to support him ever being called "Ali"? If not, please remove the redirect. For all I can find, his son was named Ali, not him. Arminden (talk) 21:25, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
- Arminden you are right Ali is the son but it appears you would have to delete the page to remove the redirect. Felinepaw (talk) 19:15, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
GA Review
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Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Fakhr al-Din II/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Ganesha811 (talk · contribs) 00:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi! I'm opening a Good Article Nomination review. Hoping to complete the review over the next couple of days. I'll be using the template below. This looks like a big one - sorry you've been waiting a while! Ganesha811 (talk) 00:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer, if you would like to start responding to some of the issues brought up during the review, particularly the sourcing, as I continue the prose review, that would be good. This one is taking me a bit longer to review due to my general unfamiliarity with the subject, so the quicker we can knock things down the better. Thanks. Ganesha811 (talk) 20:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: With regard to Abu-Husayn's Provincial Leaderships, this is a book and not a thesis/dissertation. The confusion is understandable considering the original publisher is the American University of Beirut (1985) - no ISBN. It was also published in 1985 by Syracuse University Press (ISBN 9780815660729) but I have and use the original edition. The author, and this particular book, are widely cited by scholars of the period, Abu-Husayn being one of the few leading authorities on the subject (the other major authority was his mentor Kamal Salibi). I will address the other issues raised asap. Thank you for your patience. Al Ameer (talk) 04:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for your responses on the sourcing issues. Looks like we're well on our way to resolving all of them. The Daily Star issue turned out to be that my adblocker was blocking the content, oddly. Close to finishing my prose review so I'll have more comments soon. Ganesha811 (talk) 01:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer son, Let me know what you think of the changes I made. It would also be good to go through the prose issues, which should be relatively straightforward fixes. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: No issue with the changes. I addressed most of the prose issues raised, but still working on shortening the Lead. Al Ameer (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer son, thank you, the prose fixes look good. Just two things left, then - shortening the lead, and the 'Memory of the South' source. Feel free to remove that source + the information it cites if that's the easiest fix. Ping me when you're happy with the lead and we can wrap up this nomination! Ganesha811 (talk) 14:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: I have made those changes to the lead, let me know if satisfactory. As for the material from Memory of the South, some of the material appears to be supported by additional sources. I do not have access to any of them so I will contact the original contributor of this section. If no luck, then I’ll have to hide/remove quite a bit of this section. Al Ameer (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Dear Al Ameer & Ganesha811, I am afraid that the "Memory of the South" does indeed not have an ISBN. I think I bought it in the shop of the AUB Museum and it is a real gem, as it contains both high quality photos and info on places in Southern Lebanon which are not easily accessible for obvious reasons. As a then-resident of Tyre I double-checked and found the info on the city all reliable. Personally, I find it a great chance of Wikipedia to feed in info from sources that you cannot have easily sent by Amazon the next day. For instance, I used to work a lot on Sudan and there is a great wealth of knowledge from local publications from University of Khartoum Press etc., which do not have ISBN either. But still: they can be verified, though it might be more difficult than for expample with a standard University of Oxford Press publication. Which is why there is on WP an unfortunate bias in favour of books from the Western World. However, it can be helped: like in the case of "Memory of the South" I would gladly email scans to those interested. It has been cited in other publications already so at least people know that it actually does exist. And on the other side I would argue that from my experience there are also books with ISBN which you can hardly get access to as well, especially if you sit in a place like Khartoum. For those reasons let me strongly plead to keep the reference and info. All the more so, because Southern Lebanon is such an important yet marginalised area with next to no specialised books on it and it deserves to be mentioned comprehensively in the context of Fakhr al-Din II, too. In any event, best regards & wishes RomanDeckert (talk) 09:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- RomanDeckert, Al Ameer, thanks for this information. WP:AGF is one of the core principles of Wikipedia, so I'm content to trust you and keep the source+information in the article. If there are *any* other parameters or identifiers that you can fill out in the citation, please do so, to help future readers identify the source. Publisher, editor, photographer... whatever you've got. As to the article as a whole, I'll take another look, though on first glance I think the first paragraph of the lead could still some work. It spends the bulk of its time describing his area of power/influence, and only the very beginning and end actually talk about him and his life, accomplishments, or legacy. Take a look at it and imagine you are a reader who has literally never heard a thing about him before - it must be hard, since you have written this article, but I think it's a useful exercise. Most readers will not be Lebanese or likely very familiar with the geography of the region, so the list of place-names will be largely glossed over. That kind of detail should be further summarized and discussed later in the lead and body of the article. Ganesha811 (talk) 12:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, Ganesha811, I really appreciate and shall try asap to find any additional parameters, though I think I already put in all I could get.. Dear Al Ameer, I did not want to interfere with the intro and obviously have not researched the emir nearly as much as you did, but sometimes it perhaps does help to have a bit of a distance to the subject and so I dare suggest the notion which I got from my readings, i.e. that his notability for present times lies in his aspiration to establish an independent state and that this has been widely viewed in the public discourse as the earliest vision of Lebanon as a country (I found this in: Bayeh, Joseph (2017). A History of Stability and Change in Lebanon: Foreign Interventions and International Relations. London / New York: I.B.Tauris. pp. 19–20, 33. ISBN 978-1784530976). Best of luck, RomanDeckert (talk) 22:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- RomanDeckert, Al Ameer, thanks for this information. WP:AGF is one of the core principles of Wikipedia, so I'm content to trust you and keep the source+information in the article. If there are *any* other parameters or identifiers that you can fill out in the citation, please do so, to help future readers identify the source. Publisher, editor, photographer... whatever you've got. As to the article as a whole, I'll take another look, though on first glance I think the first paragraph of the lead could still some work. It spends the bulk of its time describing his area of power/influence, and only the very beginning and end actually talk about him and his life, accomplishments, or legacy. Take a look at it and imagine you are a reader who has literally never heard a thing about him before - it must be hard, since you have written this article, but I think it's a useful exercise. Most readers will not be Lebanese or likely very familiar with the geography of the region, so the list of place-names will be largely glossed over. That kind of detail should be further summarized and discussed later in the lead and body of the article. Ganesha811 (talk) 12:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Dear Al Ameer & Ganesha811, I am afraid that the "Memory of the South" does indeed not have an ISBN. I think I bought it in the shop of the AUB Museum and it is a real gem, as it contains both high quality photos and info on places in Southern Lebanon which are not easily accessible for obvious reasons. As a then-resident of Tyre I double-checked and found the info on the city all reliable. Personally, I find it a great chance of Wikipedia to feed in info from sources that you cannot have easily sent by Amazon the next day. For instance, I used to work a lot on Sudan and there is a great wealth of knowledge from local publications from University of Khartoum Press etc., which do not have ISBN either. But still: they can be verified, though it might be more difficult than for expample with a standard University of Oxford Press publication. Which is why there is on WP an unfortunate bias in favour of books from the Western World. However, it can be helped: like in the case of "Memory of the South" I would gladly email scans to those interested. It has been cited in other publications already so at least people know that it actually does exist. And on the other side I would argue that from my experience there are also books with ISBN which you can hardly get access to as well, especially if you sit in a place like Khartoum. For those reasons let me strongly plead to keep the reference and info. All the more so, because Southern Lebanon is such an important yet marginalised area with next to no specialised books on it and it deserves to be mentioned comprehensively in the context of Fakhr al-Din II, too. In any event, best regards & wishes RomanDeckert (talk) 09:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: I have made those changes to the lead, let me know if satisfactory. As for the material from Memory of the South, some of the material appears to be supported by additional sources. I do not have access to any of them so I will contact the original contributor of this section. If no luck, then I’ll have to hide/remove quite a bit of this section. Al Ameer (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer son, thank you, the prose fixes look good. Just two things left, then - shortening the lead, and the 'Memory of the South' source. Feel free to remove that source + the information it cites if that's the easiest fix. Ping me when you're happy with the lead and we can wrap up this nomination! Ganesha811 (talk) 14:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: No issue with the changes. I addressed most of the prose issues raised, but still working on shortening the Lead. Al Ameer (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer son, Let me know what you think of the changes I made. It would also be good to go through the prose issues, which should be relatively straightforward fixes. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for your responses on the sourcing issues. Looks like we're well on our way to resolving all of them. The Daily Star issue turned out to be that my adblocker was blocking the content, oddly. Close to finishing my prose review so I'll have more comments soon. Ganesha811 (talk) 01:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: With regard to Abu-Husayn's Provincial Leaderships, this is a book and not a thesis/dissertation. The confusion is understandable considering the original publisher is the American University of Beirut (1985) - no ISBN. It was also published in 1985 by Syracuse University Press (ISBN 9780815660729) but I have and use the original edition. The author, and this particular book, are widely cited by scholars of the period, Abu-Husayn being one of the few leading authorities on the subject (the other major authority was his mentor Kamal Salibi). I will address the other issues raised asap. Thank you for your patience. Al Ameer (talk) 04:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- RomanDeckert, thanks. I generally agree with your comments on the lead. We're there on everything but prose now! Ganesha811 (talk) 15:27, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: I shortened it further but still trying different versions and scrapping them until I strike the right balance. The lead was the main issue I anticipated when nominating the article. It’s a bit complicated. Need to mention his formal and traditional roles in the first sentence or two as this is standard. The duration of his office/rule should also be mentioned. This sounds straightforward enough but Fakhr al-Din governed and tax farmed several districts and subdistricts, sometimes at once and sometimes at different periods, officially or in practice through family members and close associates. And this should probably be underlined by the fact that he ruled with great autonomy and power and was often seen as a rebel. He was an emir of the Chouf area Druze and later the paramount chief of all the Druze and he forged ties with the Maronites unprecedented in their closeness and impact at the time by any local outside of that community. As the idea of a greater Lebanon developed in the early 20th century he was naturally credited as the country's original founder though this is probably more nation-building myth than fact. This legacy role is very important but not sure if it should be in the first sentence but perhaps the last of the first paragraph, which should probably be 3 to 4 sentences. As for his accomplishments, they are many, but are best left for the third paragraph imo. I will continue to try different versions and welcome proposals as well. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer son, take a few days and come up with a version you like, and I'll take another look. I'm willing to accept something that's less than perfect, especially as this is a GA review and not an FA review. Ganesha811 (talk) 14:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer, how's it going? Are you comfortable with where the lead is now, or are you still planning to do some more work on it? Ganesha811 (talk) 18:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: I just finished the latest version and believe it should pass muster. I do plan on an FAC soon but would be prepared to rewrite the lead from scratch at the point if necessary. — Al Ameer (talk) 04:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Al Ameer son:, no I think you've done enough! The FAC crowd may have their own comments, but I'm prepared to say this passes the GA standard. Congrats! I'll do the needful now. Ganesha811 (talk) 04:57, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: I just finished the latest version and believe it should pass muster. I do plan on an FAC soon but would be prepared to rewrite the lead from scratch at the point if necessary. — Al Ameer (talk) 04:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer, how's it going? Are you comfortable with where the lead is now, or are you still planning to do some more work on it? Ganesha811 (talk) 18:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- Al Ameer son, take a few days and come up with a version you like, and I'll take another look. I'm willing to accept something that's less than perfect, especially as this is a GA review and not an FA review. Ganesha811 (talk) 14:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Ganesha811: I shortened it further but still trying different versions and scrapping them until I strike the right balance. The lead was the main issue I anticipated when nominating the article. It’s a bit complicated. Need to mention his formal and traditional roles in the first sentence or two as this is standard. The duration of his office/rule should also be mentioned. This sounds straightforward enough but Fakhr al-Din governed and tax farmed several districts and subdistricts, sometimes at once and sometimes at different periods, officially or in practice through family members and close associates. And this should probably be underlined by the fact that he ruled with great autonomy and power and was often seen as a rebel. He was an emir of the Chouf area Druze and later the paramount chief of all the Druze and he forged ties with the Maronites unprecedented in their closeness and impact at the time by any local outside of that community. As the idea of a greater Lebanon developed in the early 20th century he was naturally credited as the country's original founder though this is probably more nation-building myth than fact. This legacy role is very important but not sure if it should be in the first sentence but perhaps the last of the first paragraph, which should probably be 3 to 4 sentences. As for his accomplishments, they are many, but are best left for the third paragraph imo. I will continue to try different versions and welcome proposals as well. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
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1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. |
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2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). |
Source check:
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2c. it contains no original research. |
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2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. |
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3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. |
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6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. |
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7. Overall assessment. |
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More sources?
edit@Al Ameer son: I've just come across two articles about Fakhr al-Din II which aren't in the bibliography – possibly because with their unusual spellings of his name they wouldn't have come up in a search?
- Cuffaro, Rosangela (2010). "Fakhr ad-Din II alla corte dei Medici (1613–1615): Collezionismo, architettura e ars topiaria tra Firenze e Beirut". Marburger Jahrbuch für Kunstwissenschaft (in Italian). 37: 209–217.
- Scham, Sandra A. (2015). "The Legacy of Fakhreddine II—Renaissance Prince of Mount Lebanon". Journal of Eastern Mediterranean Archaeology & Heritage Studies. 3 (4): 428–438.
I haven't given them my proper attention yet, but might they have something that can be added to this article? The one in English is admittedly brief, but the one in Italian looks more substantial. The articles are on JSTOR, to which I have access via The Wikipedia Library; I assume you have access as there are already six JSTOR articles in the bibliography? Ham II (talk) 16:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)