Talk:Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife

Merge Proposal from Fairbairn-Sykes_Knife

Agreed. I can do this mid-May if someone else has not done so already, then set Fairbairn-Sykes_Knife up as a redirect to here. Rorybowman 23:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed'. scot 14:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. MMad 13:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. --Knife Knut 02:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and did this. Dalf | Talk 07:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Old Talk

There were two quotes here before, the second of which I recognized and the first of which I believe is on a proprietary site. If someone can confirm this, that would be terrific.

John F. Murphy Jr., "Secret Weapons of the Secret War," International Journal of Intelligence and CounterIntelligence, Volume 14, Number 2 / April 1, 2001, pp. 262 - 278. [1]

When will the contents fo Get Tough! be in the public domain? A diagram of Fairbairn's cuts would be good to add here, as it would very clearly convey the spirit of Fairbairn's text. Rorybowman 02:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, since it dates to after Mickey Mouse, then approximately never. See Micky Mouse Protection Act. scot 23:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Move from F&S Fighting Knife to FS fighting knife

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was to move this article to Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife --Lox (t,c) 22:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

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I'd say move it to "Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife" rather than an abbreviation, and create redirects from the "FS" and "F-S" and "F&S" abbreviated versions. scot 23:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Even better! What scot said... - Rorybowman 05:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Support per scot's suggestion! --Lox (t,c) 21:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Stamp on 3rd Patter Knives

I can't believe that the words "BROAD ARROW" were really stamped on the knives, I think it more likely that the broad arrow symbol (that of the War Department) would have been stamped instead. Could someone correct this if I'm correct.

Cheers —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.69.83.247 (talk) 21:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Interesting aside re the photo

I uploaded the photo of the FS knife. I took this of a knife in the Australian 1 Cdo Regt Q Store and reported that it was from stock originally issued and used by Australian WWII Commandos. I have recently learnt that this knife was actually from a container confiscated by Australia during the infamous "sandline affair" in PNG. WWII stock had long previously dissappeared.Greynurse 13:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife

Rename from Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife to Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife

• The full name of the article should be capitalized, as it is the name of the knife. Chessy999 (talk) 16:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Is the knife a stiletto or not

In the first sentence it states that the Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife is a type ofstiletto. Later on it states that the knife isn't a stiletto due to differences in the pommel, grip and blade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.82.121.38 (talk) 18:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the modern definition of stiletto, it is indeed a stiletto blade design. Fairbairn himself admitted that his design, while capable of slashing strokes when properly sharpened, was primarily intended as a thrusting weapon, ideal for sentry elimination. See Dunlop, Richard, Behind Japanese Lines: With the OSS in Burma, New York: Time Life Co., ISBN 0809485796, 9780809485796 (1991): Fairbairn had invented a stiletto as precise as a surgeon's scalpel. He wielded it with a flashing, slashing vigor that invariably proved fatal to an opponent. "Why is it so long and thin?" I asked him one day in a question period during my own course of instruction. "It doesn't have a cutting edge." "It doesn't leave any marks on the body," he replied. "Scarcely more than a tiny drop of blood." See Dunlop, Richard, Behind Japanese Lines: With the OSS in Burma, New York: Time Life Co., ISBN 0809485796, 9780809485796 (1991)

Not relevant to the question I know but by unscrewing the pommel and sliding off the handle, one is left with a rod that can be inserted in to a suitable length of bamboo to make a makeshift spear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 19:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

fairbairn and sykes dagger

with all due respect to above gentlemen i doubt that they invented the dagger. its is a precise replica of the dutch stormdolk 1917. as used by Dutch special troops and marines since 1917. even the sheat is the same At the time this dagger was introduced by fairbairn and sykes they probably saw it in Shanghai were also dutch marines were stationed just google stormdolk 1917 for pictures

a driessen the netherlands— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.194.200.24 (talk) 18:53, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The stormdolk has a broad wooden handle, held to the tang by two rivets, whereas the F-S has a metal vase type held by a screw pommel, so the F-S is not exactly a precise replica at all. The sheath is different as well- it has a loop for suspension from a belt, whereas the F-S scabbard has tags which are sewn on to clothing. The oval metal guard resembles that of a 2nd or 3rd type (but not the original F-S). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 16:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Some interesting comparison pics here: http://www.fairbairnsykesfightingknives.com/odds-n-ends.html Andy Dingley (talk) 17:14, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I removed a section which quoted a source as referring to "Dan" Fairbairn- didn't seem a particularly reliable source. William Fairbairn was, according to Wilkinson-Latham, the superintendent of the Shanghai Municipal Police Reserve Unit, a "riot squad", in 1931. I doubt Fairbairn spent most of his time creeping up on unsuspecting rioters and stabbing them, which suggests that the Shanghai daggers were designed as defensive last-resort weapons. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 12:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

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Admired, or not?

It says: "The OSS Stiletto was a double-edged knife based on the Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife. It was so admired that the US military created several other fighting knives based on it."

Is that several others based on the OSS Stiletto, or on the F-S?

Then it says that because of the incorrect tempering, "Its reputation suffered accordingly." The reader is left wondering whether the OSS knife was popular or unpopular. The citation for "Its reputation suffered accordingly" has apparently rotted, even though it is the Wayback Machine; perhaps the link was never a good one - I didn't think that Wayback Machine links were prone to rot.

Anyway, we now seem to have a paragraph that contains a contradiction, with no useable citation to resolve that contradiction. I propose to remove everything in that para up to "accordingly", if nobody can help with this problem. After all, this material is only tangentially about the F-S knife; removing it would not remove any info about the F-S knife. MrDemeanour (talk) 14:40, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• Flook p 219 states that testing during early production discovered the incorrect tempering. Some (maybe all) of the production run of 10,000 have a Brinell hardness test dot on the blade. 1,000 were delivered to the British Ministry of Supply Mission in New York. At the end of the war 1,047 were left in stock, which were passed to the CIA for use in the Bay of Pigs operation. The OSS scabbard has been likened to a "pancake flapper" or fish slice, and that I think was unpopular (got no cite for that). "The Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife and other Commando knives" Ron Flook published by Ron Flook 2013 ISBN 978-0-957-62410-8 (hmmm… self-published). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Could you please sign your contributions? Four tildes at the end does the trick.

I would still like someone to de-confuse the article, or give a citation that would enable someone like me to do the job. MrDemeanour (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• As far as I can tell, the two reliable sources are the Flook book mentioned above and the Wilkinson-Latham book mentioned in the references. Apart from the OSS stiletto there's the US Marine Corps stiletto (14,370 produced- Flook page 222), the Petrie knife (p. 224), the Japan Sword Vietnam Special Forces knife (p.226), Australian, Canadian, Belgian, Malaysian, Indian, Indonesian and Polish copies, and the fakes of the first pattern (for some reason missing the hyphen between F and S). Also a small Wilkinson Sword combat version, small versions used as paper knives, chrome-plated presentation knives, and antler-handled versions. The USMC stiletto was designed in 1942 by Lt. Col. Clifford H. Shuey and made by the Camillus Cutlery Co. N.Y. (Flook p.222). The OSS stiletto was ordered from Landers, Frary and Clark in June 1942 (10,000 at $2.03 each) and delivery completed in August 1943 (Flook p. 219) The Petrie knife was made by J.W. Petrie and advertised as "Closely following specifications developed by Chief of Police of Shanghai". Made circa 1944 and supplied to US Navy pilots (Flook pp.224-225). In 1946 Wilkinson Sword made miniature first pattern FS knives to be presented to razor salesmen (W-L pp.147-149). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 22:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

This is all very interesting, but entirely orthogonal to the questions I raised:

1. Which knife, the F-S knife or the OSS Stiletto, was "so admired that the US military created several other fighting knives based on it"?

2. If it was the OSS Stiletto that was admired, why does it say ""Its reputation suffered accordingly"? MrDemeanour (talk) 03:15, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

• Question 1: Design and specification for the OSS stiletto (Flook pp.220-22) are dated February and March 1943. The USMC stiletto was designed in 1942 (Flook p.222) The second pattern F-S knife (on which both the US knives were based) was in production by August 1941 (W-L p.53). Major Fairbairn arrived in Canada March 1942 (Flook p.21). From some point in 1942 Fairbairn was on loan to the OSS- he appeared with his knife in a number of training films and in newspaper articles in the US (Flook pp.24-25). His "Get Tough" book was advertised full-page in the New York Timesin July 1942 (Flook p.22), part of what Flook describes as "the Fairbairn publicity machine" (ibid.) It appears that Fairbairn was the prime mover in the adoption of the F-S knife by the US military, and he admired his own knife, so the answer to your question is that it's the F-S knife. Can't be the OSS knife since it was preceded by the USMC knife.

Question 2:As mentioned above, the initial run of OSS knives were tested and found to be soft. It's implied that this was a production issue and such knives never left the factory. The USMC knife had an aluminum-zinc hilt which after a number of years started to disintegrate (by which time the knives were in the hands of collectors). I've no idea why or if the reputation of the OSS knife "suffered accordingly". Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:29, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

• Also the statement "the US military created several other fighting knives" appears to be incorrect- the other fighting knives were created by private entrepreneurs. The original F-S knife was a commercial success from the beginning, sold from 53a Pall Mall, London. Second patterns were supplied with etching on the blade to the customer's design for an extra 1s 6d. The price may have been 17s. 9d. which is what the Ministry of Supply paid to Wilkinson's.(W-L p. 65) They were popular with US servicemen stationed in the UK. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 08:56, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the info. However, I cannot cite you as a source, so I cannot repair the article. Do you have sources for the info you have provided above? If so, will you please fix the article? It's not really much help if the info is only available in the form of comments on a talk page. 81.2.68.136 (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• The sources are Flook and Wilkinson-Latham (page numbers given in the comments above). Flook is "The Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife and other Commando knives" Ron Flook published by Ron Flook 2013 ISBN 978-0-957-62410-8 and the other is in the reference section of the article. Flook is a detailed technical survey with a historical introduction, and Wilkinson gives the history according to the Wilkinson archives. I did try a repair, but got really bogged down. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 19:55, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

When did it dropped out of use ?

When did the SAS and the british military in general, abandoned the FS-knife ? Is there a successor of the FS-Knife or does the SAS no longer see the need of a combat-knife ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.171.249.180 (talk) 14:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)