Talk:Ezra Meeker

Ox cart

An ox cart is a two wheeled vehicle, pulled by an ox. A cart is any two wheeled vehicle. A wagon is a four wheeled vehicle, pulled by a pair of draft animals. The picture shows a wagon not a cart. Not one person traveling on the Oregon Trail between 1846 and 1856 used a cart. If you think they did then you need to produce a document written on the trial at that time. I have a diary, published in 1987, written on the trail in 1853. This diary is daily, missing not one day, starts in Illinois and end in Oregon. The word "wagon" is used a hundred times. The word "cart" does not appear once.

Nick Beeson (talk) 04:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Removal of video game high score, please indicate views

I've removed the video game high score from the Legacy section. First, it is unsourced, utter trivia. Second, it has nothing to do with Meeker or his life. Third, it destroys a carefully constructed ending of the article. I'd like consensus that it should be kept out, if people are minded to think that way.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:25, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• Remove totally meaningless.PumpkinSky talk 11:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
• Remove I removed it once per WP:TRIVIA, but it was immediately reverted by Ryan Vesey (talk · contribs) with the edit summary Not trivia at all. Unless I am completely missing how a minor video game's passing mention of Meeker provides insight into his life, I think it is pure trivia. —EncMstr (talk) 16:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
• Keep, if a reliable source can be found. While I've seen it mentioned in enough places to be confident in it's accuracy, none of the sources I've seen are exceptionally reliable. I don't care exactly where it's included, but I feel that it should be The Oregon Trail was one of the most popular computer games of the early age of computing. The fact that Meeker was memorialized in the game is not trivial and appears to be the only significant recent mention of Meeker in popular culture. I'll also note that I prefer the text as it was introduced in 2006 "The programmers of the mid-1980s version MECC computer game 'The Oregon Trail' paid tribute to Meeker by listing his name alongside a fifth-place score of 2052 on the default version of the high-score list known as the 'Oregon Top Ten.'" To the text as it appeared recently. Ryan Vesey 16:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• Here is a link to Meeker appearing on the scoreboard with the score of 2052. I'll note that the scoreboard shown isn't the default scoreboard. Ryan Vesey 16:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• What do video games say about Meeker's life and legacy? It's sticking a trivial point, and yes it is trivial, immediately after a thoughtfully-considreed conclusion. I think it would have been better to refrain from the revert.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• Remove: It is one thing if the game's article links to this one, but toys and video game references to a topic (however educational) are not relevant to enlightening people about the topic. Just for one offhand example, we don't link My Little Pony in the mane (horse) article, and and the same principle applies here; plus, once we start adding this stuff, the trivia lists become endless. Meeker's appearance also makes him practically a poster child for the old pioneer stereotype. WP:TRIVIA most certainly applies here. Montanabw^(talk) 17:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
• Remove: Adds nothing, detracts from the ending. YBG (talk) 03:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Wagon

Very nice article. Within the body of the text under the sub-heading, "the Advocate for the Oregon Trail (1909–1925), it states that the replica wagon was removed from museum display due to its fragility and it sources a couple of references. The photo of the 1906 replica wagon within the article however shows it on display in 2012. Evenrød (talk) 04:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

That troubled me too. I have enquired of Dennis Larsen, Meeker expert via email. The reference that covers that is the historylink.org one, take a look if you like. Of course, it is possible it was restored to display after 2009, when that page was published, but I didn't see it when I was there in March. Thanks for the good words.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The 2012 date is based on the "date and time of data generation" listed in the picture info here YBG (talk) 18:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, this says that it was on display in 2010, although the blogger could not find the oxen. Somewhat the opposite of my experience in 2013.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, Larsen replied "In 2006 the wagon was in storage in the basement of the WSHS research center in Tacoma (the research center is the old museum), where it had been for a number of years. That year the Meeker Historical Society arranged a special visit for several of us. We got to take pictures, look at it close up, etc. Then a couple of years ago the WSHS Museum ran an exhibit called the icons of Washington State. For that exhibit, which ran over a year, they brought Meeker's 1906 wagon out of mothballs and displayed it. The wagon exhibit was so popular that they left it out for some additional time. The picture in your article is from that time period." I would suggest that we clarify "while returned temporarily to exhibit" or similar language.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Wehwalt I'm glad that you know Mr. Larsen and could email him. His reply is very informative and shows how complicated something can be that appears so straightforward on the surface. It would have been easy to just make assumptions because of the photograph, so thanks for taking the time to research the matter further (and it also helps that you were recently at the museum). Evenrød (talk) 03:54, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, the subject of Meeker was sufficiently complicated (lots of legends, lots of false info in sources) that I felt I needed a competent expert to guide me through, so I got in touch with the Ezra Meeker Historical Society, who put me in touch with him. He's been very useful, some of the 19th century newspaper cites are from him, for example.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Provisions

In Meeker's book, Ox-team Days on the Oregon Trail, he relates that at one point Indians were demanding "payment" to cross a makeshift bridge across a river. On page 43., Meeker writes, "The word had been passed around in our little party that not a cent's worth of provisions would we give up to the Indians." Money is never mentioned in the account, only provisions. And in other trail accounts that I've read from the 1850s, it's always provisions that are sought after vs. an exchange of money - compared to when whites were manning different river crossings. Evenrød (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2013 (UTC) (I have corrected 'Meeker' in place of 'Meek' in two places above. YBG (talk) 03:47, 24 June 2013 (UTC))

Good point, I must have misunderstood. Change made.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Meeker Mansion

Am I misinterpreting what the source says? Ezra's wife, Eliza, had the mansion built:

Having now been presented to the Queen, Eliza Meeker was finished with living in a dirt-floored cabin. In 1887 she hired Tacoma architects Ferrell and Darmer to design and build a 17-room Italianate Victorian mansion a few blocks from the log cabin.

— Paula Becker, history.org

Hoof Hearted (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oliver Meeker?

I see that he was Ezra's older brother, but the section about the migration starts out by indicating that Ezra, his wife, and infant son began the trip. I will change that first sentence to indicate that Oliver went too.Terry Thorgaard (talk) 15:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Birthplace

Ezra Meeker's birthplace is stated as being near Huntsville, just wondered whether a note should be added that this is not Huntsville, Ohio (which is in Logan County) but another Huntsville in Butler County. I have corrected this mistake in both the Ezra Meeker Mansion and Huntsville, Ohio articles...Thanks GrahamHardy (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, feel free. I think people have edited that over time.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Text sandwiched by the images

While I was reviewing this before its main page day, I saw that there was quite a bit of sandwiching of text by images and did some pruning. Peaceray seems to disagree -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:28, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I viewed this on the desktop. The two pictures were in different section, & the situation described by MOS:SANDWICH does not seem to apply. I also question why the pictures were removed altogether. Usually the remedy for the sort of problem that Guerillero alluded to can is to put images on the same side, usually the right side, & repositioning. I do not think that MOS:SANDWICH should be used to justify removal of the images. Let's see what others say about whether they need to be removed. Peaceray (talk) 21:40, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I see quite some sandwiching, beginning with the first image and the infobox (the left image also displacing the next header), but also later when pics are left and right in the same section. I think some captions might be shorter. Wehwalt, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to keep as many of the images as possible. The article is well-illustrated, as you'd expect about someone who once he became a public figure (1906) took care to have pictures taken at every opportunity, and I took three of the present-day ones myself. But I wasn't going to argue about a sketch of Meeker's dog.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:54, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

The dog sketch seems to be the weakest one to me -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:09, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. And the Meeker Mansion one can probably be moved to another section.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay, let's scrap the dog picture. After all, what pioneer didn't have a dog? Nothing notable about that. The mansion is noteworthy. I thought Guerillero was indicating the text was sandwiched between the two removed pictures but now I see that there is sandwiched text was between the mansion & the previous picture. That said, it seemed to be just two lines of text that can easily be remedied by repositioning the image. Peaceray (talk) 01:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Is this correct?

"In 1895, Meeker chartered a special train to bring whites to Leschi's reburial on tribal land": is this means, that Leschi was reburial on tribal land sometimes before, doesn't have to be 1895, and Meeker just bring whites to that land? To do what?--Jarodalien (talk) 12:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

To attend the reburial, which occurred in 1895. Leschi was originally buried elsewhere.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Got it right after I sign and submit, thanks.--Jarodalien (talk) 15:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

"Meeker found another ox, which he named Dandy, and broke him in on the way to Indianapolis", what's "broke him in" mean?--Jarodalien (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

That is, accustomed the ox to pulling a wagon, which is not something cattle do naturally.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:51, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Like a training? So "him" is the ox Dandy...--Jarodalien (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes on both counts. Many of the wagons on the Oregon Trail were pulled by cattle (oxen); horses were relatively expensive and delicate. Meeker was experienced in training oxen to pull a wagon. I suppose there's a case that male animals can be referred to as "it", but I'm not terribly motivated to change it.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:48, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

"not needed" image location?

Hello Wehwalt. I see you did a quick rv on an image caption I had edited to include the location as stated on the image's commons page. Can you explain why this was not needed? I added your fuller description because I recall that Pacific Springs has a full trail marking monument: https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=96660 And the image name states it is "Oregon Trail at Pacific Springs, Wyoming.jpg". As you took the image (thanks!), is this marker also there at Pacific Springs? Or is it southwest further along the trail road? It seemed generic and a bit confusing. – ░▒▓ №∶ 71.59.218.160 (talk) 04:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC) ▓▒░

The idea of having the image there is just to evoke the Oregon Trail, which Meeker spent the latter part of his life preserving, and it is linked in the hope the reader will click on it and learn more about it. Saying where on the Trail it is sort of demotes it to an illustration. I think I saw the monument you mention when I was there but I don't think I photographed it as it would not have been copyright-free. Aside from the one day I went trail-walking I was mostly photographing the OTMA markers on that trip.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:15, 12 September 2022 (UTC)