Talk:Evolution Aircraft

Is the company in business or not?

The most recent ref from AOPA says they went out of business in 2017. The company website still exists, but web-hosting is often paid years in advance and commonly websites stay up a long time after companies are long gone. The most recent posts on the website are more than a year old and pre-date the AOPA article saying the company is out of business. To change this you need to cite a new ref. You can't just remove reliable refs you don't like or disagree with. So if the company is running again where is the ref? - Ahunt (talk) 14:37, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Just to help sort this out I have written to the company. Emails can't be cited as refs, but at least it might give us an indication whether they are in business and if they are, why the most recent news was the AOPA article saying they are out of business. I'll drop a note here if or when I hear back from them. - Ahunt (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Well it has been a week now and no response at all from the company to inquiries as to whether they are in business or not. So it seems that AOPA was right, lacking any new evidence it seems that they are not. - Ahunt (talk) 11:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Facebook page is abandoned and this page says they are out of business. [1] Legacypac (talk) 09:01, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I found a source which says earlier reports of their closure were incorrect [2], instead they'd reduced to a skeleton staff and were looking for a buyer. True this source is mostly reporting what the CFO told them, but unlike anything actually promoting the company like talking about what it's doing, I don't think the existence of a company is the sort of thing that's generally particularly controversial. Likewise, I don't think this can be considered a dispute between sources so I just removed the earlier stuff [3]. Of the other sources we have one of them just says "appeared" and actually then talks about stuff like not returning phone calls and actually does mention a skeleton staff anyway (so by definition why they may be winding down they can't be shut down) [4]. And while the other does say

Less than two years after Evolution Aircraft separated from the Lancair International brand, the company has shut its doors. When a manufacturer goes out of business, aircraft owners are generally left high and dry until the company’s assets are bought up by someone willing to take on the project and the liability that comes along with it.

it seems to mostly be about some other company offering support to customers [5] so doesn't seem the best source to establish what happened to Evolution Aircraft. Of course Evolution still existing doesn't mean they could offer support to customers anyway. What happened after October 2017 I haven't yet found any sources. Nil Einne (talk) 10:12, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I found another source from November 2017 [6]. But then I realised I made a mistake. I thought the service network source [7] was from the time of the closure but it was actually several months later and so postdating all the sources I found. So I've self reverted for now. I still don't think the Flyingmag/service network thing is a great source. But I'm not finding any mention of them ever finding a buyer so either I'm missing them, or sources didn't notice or more likely they didn't. My hunch is they still barely exist in some form but probably aren't doing much. Nil Einne (talk) 10:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• I was just going to start making changes but I see this is already being discussed. I found the same as what Nil Einne found, and the way I read it the service network was a venture by an unrelated entity responding to Evolution no longer operating. I do read it as a press release, but not one that is unusable. However, over at ANI user Mark Jean is insisting that the company is still in operation, although I can't tell to what extent, and I have not been able to find any sources to back that up. I invited him to provide something. In the meantime, I think based on available sources it is safe to say that the company ceased production in 2017, laid off many of their staff (one source says 21 out of 46, others say "half"), and were seeking new investment, and that the service network emerged afterwards. I think we cannot say that the shutdown was due to being unable to secure insurance, that is speculation. As for a skeleton staff still operating as a company winds down (not that I'm saying that's what's happening here, we don't know) that's normal, they might be "winding down" for years, sorting through legal issues and selling off assets and such, and none of that is likely to be particularly newsworthy. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:41, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

We have run into this sort of situation with other aircraft manufacturers in the past here on Wikipedia, where the company claims that the reliable refs are all wrong, that the company still exists, but then next the website is taken down and they are never heard from again. Typically what drives this this is potential rescue investors reading the Wikipedia article and balking. So we have two of the most reliable refs in the aviation media world AOPA and Flying that says the company went out of business in 2017. Now we have a COI editor claiming the company is still, or back, in business, but no press release, no evidence of any kind. I think what we need to do is indicate in the article what the reliable refs reported at the time and also what the company last reported on 5 October 2017 and then see if the company issues any updates. It is pretty much a no-brainer that if the company is still in business that they will update their blog to indicate their status, especially given that last blog post, saying that they were restructuring and had laid off almost half their staff. If they still exist that can't be the last message that they want investors or customers to see. - Ahunt (talk) 14:12, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with labelling them "out of business" given the available sources. We need to reflect the situation as best we can without saying things which we aren't certain are true. "Believed to be out of business" is probably even a stretch. We could say "AOPA speculated" and detail the company's response at the time, that would be a fair presentation I think.

"On October 5, 2017, Bob Wolstenholme took over as Evolution's CEO, and announced on the company's blog that 21 out of 46 staff had been laid off as the company entered a restructuring plan and sought new investors. The AOPA reported on October 19 that the company appeared to be closed and was not responding to phone calls. AOPA speculated that the company had ceased operations following a July 17 fatal crash[8] and subsequent legal challenges. However, on November 4, CFO Randy Akacich said that employees were still at work in the company's facility, focused on fulfilling existing orders.[9]"

Sure, I am fine with showing it as a matter of opinion from the sources. Really, that is all we have to go on. The one thing with companies of any type is that they rarely put out press releases when they fold up or cease operations. One thing I have seen is typically the first round of lay-offs includes their PR person and webmaster, which results in no one outside knowing what is happening. I think both AOPA and Flying came to reasonable conclusions based on customer reports, not being able to get in touch with anyone at the company, plus no communications, including social media posts, blog updates or anything, but I am fine with attributing these as the conclusions of the media outlets. We can also cite the last blog post from the company in 2017 and indicate that there have been no further updates and let readers draw their own conclusions. - Ahunt (talk) 15:07, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I can only find two kits listed as manufactured by Evolution EVO-0086 N143VH and EVO-0090 N167FX the ones before (are listed as Lancair Built). N143VH was certified in 2019 and N167FX in 2018 but they are listed as homebuilt so may have taken time to build from kits. Not saying that more kits have been produced and sold (0087, 0088 and 0090 are likely). Sorry it doesnt provide any evidence that the company still exists. MilborneOne (talk) 15:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

A press statement about downsizing from the CEO from October 2017 at https://ozlobo.wordpress.com/2017/10/07/important-announcement-from-the-evolution-aircraft-company/ and another from October 2017 about being up for sale http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=591f6c8e-31ad-4901-99aa-47437e125f55 MilborneOne (talk) 15:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Those are useful finds, especially Aero New Network, which confirms that "Evolution Aircraft, a company created when Lancair restructured its assets is 2016, is for sale. And while reports last week of the company being closed appeared to be premature, the kit maker is certainly struggling." As part of the story here I think we need to report what each media outlet said in chronological order. The wordpress release is a copy of the last company blog post. - Ahunt (talk) 15:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Given those four refs I think we actually have enough information to figure out what really happened now. I'll try updating the article and then everyone can see what they think. - Ahunt (talk) 16:08, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

 Done, please have a look. - Ahunt (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

There are a number of problems, unfortunately, primarily copyediting but I can take a pass over it later. We need to fix, though, that the Flying reference is from 2018, not 2017 - the service network emerged after all of the other information we have. I still think we should report Akacich's statement from November, as it's the most recent update with respect to the company's operations that anyone seems to have reported up to the Flying piece.

I do want to hear from Mark Jean, he was pretty adamant that the company is still operating to some extent, but we can't do anything with that info without a source. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I'll fix the Flying date issue. The ANN ref abrogates the Flying and AOPA refs, although they should still be reported for completeness and the text now shows that. - Ahunt (talk) 20:56, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Okay I have fixed the ref dates and the chronological order, now all we need is some indication from the company that the last news that they are closed is not correct. - Ahunt (talk) 21:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

and I have added the November 2017 information. I think that is all we have for now. - Ahunt (talk) 21:12, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Yep, I think that's a pretty fair presentation of the available information. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:26, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I have just added a couple more refs I found, but that seems to be the whole public story. If the company would even put out a blog post or even a Facebook update we could that to indicate the current status of the company. If they can't do that much, then ... - Ahunt (talk) 21:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

There's actually a comment on one of the reviews which appears to come from someone working for the company (not from their official account but the person's private account) back in August 2018. Won't link to it for various reasons and it's obviously not something we can use as a source, but I think it further supports the view something is still going on at the company. BTW, as per my earlier comment, I agree with MPS1992 that the service network/flying source looks almost like a press release for that other company. Nil Einne (talk) 04:37, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree. It is possible that Flying took the other company's word for Evolution's status. To give the other company credit though, or at least not blame, Evolution was apparently not answering any inquiries and had been reported as out of business in the aviation media, so it wasn't an unreasonable conclusion. - Ahunt (talk) 14:01, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh it's definitely a press release. But we can use it as a citation for the starting up of the service network after the company's apparent demise, which is relevant encyclopedic information. The only part of it where it's iffy is using it as a source for Evolution being definitely out of business, as that other company would have some commercial incentive to say that they're filling the gap left by Evolution's closure, but we also have no good evidence to the contrary. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:09, 8 March 2019 (UTC)