Talk:Ethiopia/Archive 5

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Archiving and WikiProject Ethiopia

As part of my efforts to recharge the WikiProject Ethiopia, I will be archiving many of the discussions on this page. I will also start a FAQ section much like the one on the Talk:India page. This section will address the many opinionated and much discussed topics that frequent this talk page and that have already been addressed. I would like the more seasoned editors of this page to suggest questions/answers to be included in this section. My goal is to create a clean and concise talk page so we can FINALLY bring this page to GA or even FA status.

Also see new section in Talk:WikiProject_Ethiopia, for my proposed restart of the WikiProject Ethiopia. አቤል ዳዊት (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Coffee

Hi. As this is the exports sub-section, I replaced the pic of certified coffee tasters or "cuppers" with actual Ethiopian Blessed Coffee brand exports. There already appears to be material on cuppers on the Coffee production in Ethiopia page which I also added a link to. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

The only picture in this section can not be of a specific brand. That is advertising. I was going to allow it and then hopefully get others to look over it and reach a consesus. But since you insist on have it your way, I must object. I will instead find another picture to place. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 20:09, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

There's no policy against this. In fact, such sections often link to specific chief exports from a country. See, for example, the Iran Khodro material here. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

That is hardly the same thing. Is there any evidence that "Blessed Coffee" is a major exporter of Coffee, let alone the biggest? That is what Iran Khodro is. It is the largest producer of motor vehicles in THE REGION. Much like Ethiopian Airlines, which is mentioned in this article, is the largest airline in Africa (I think?). "Blessed Coffee," which does not even have enough notoriety to have its own article does not belong on the main article page of a country. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

It's an example of perhaps Ethiopia's chief export, coffee, and in the relevant section (c.f. [1]). If you prefer, I can remove identification of the company and just refer to the exported bags as "Ethiopian coffee". Middayexpress (talk) 21:09, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

What I would rather have is a more general picture showing coffee production. Like these two:Image:Sifting good beans from bad.jpg and Image:Ethiopia Export Treemap.jpg

As this is the export sub-section, an image of actual Ethiopian coffee exports is most appropriate. That pic above is not of Ethiopian coffee exports, but of coffee being prepared for exportation. I maintain that an actual brand of Ethiopian coffee is best for the section. I'll ask around if it's appropriate. If it is and does not constitute advertising as you say, I'll re-add it. In the meantime, this picture(Image:Keeping a quick turnover of stock.jpg) would make an alright substitute since it shows the coffee bags themselves that are to be exported, in addition to the manager of the Ethiopia Commodity Exchange warehouse in question. Middayexpress (talk) 15:15, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

PERFECT... I like it! I think we have a consesus for now. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 15:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I got word back about the brand issue. It's apparently not a problem (c.f. [2]). Middayexpress (talk) 18:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

We need to really review all the pictures on this article. I think we need to update to more higher quality pictures that demonstrate the diverse human cultures in Ethiopia. However, I think there is a better way of doing this besides simply adding the pictures we think are appropriate ourselves. I propose we use the method developed by the editors of India in the past. They first all suggested as many good quality pictures as they could find and then voted to decide the best ten or so. They then included all ten using a script to rotate the pictures randomly each time the article is called up. I think that is the best idea for this article and the demographics section would be a great place to try this out on.

So I would like every one to look for pictures to nominate. There should be three pictures in this section a picture of a woman/women, a picture of a man/men, and a picture of a child/children. The best place to start would be Women of Ethiopia, Men of Ethiopia, Children of Ethiopia, Amhara people and other People of Ethiopia, all on Commons. Only nominate pictures that are Hi-res and color (any thing very close to or over 1000px should be good).

I have included my nominations to get things started. You can nominate several pictures but check to make sure they are not already nominated and don't go over board so others get a say. You can look at other places for more pictures. Some of the pages linked to in People of Ethiopia and Demographics of Ethiopia might be a good place to locate pictures not in these categories. We should avoid recognizable or notable people for this section. And try to find people not only in rural areas and tribes but also in urban areas.

BTW if you find a picture that would be good but it is not included in the the picture categories I list above, add it to the appropriate category in People of Ethiopia.

Pictures of Women

• commons:File:President Obama Hosts a Town Hall in the East Room of the White House (2).jpg

Pictures of Men

• commons:File:Ethiopian man portrait.jpg

Pictures of Children

• commons:File:Bahir_Dar_girl.jpg

I know the categories seem kinda bare right now but I will be adding a lot more pictures I have found. Here is a list of sources if you want to help:

• People in Ethiopia by A. Davey
• Ethiopia by babasteve
• Ethiopia by Indrik myneur

The Obama town hall meeting is not actually in Ethiopia, but in the White House; it also includes mostly non-Ethiopians. At any rate, the demographic images don't appear to be low quality. The pic of the Habesha baby represents the country's Afro-Asiatic communities, and the Mursi pic represents the Nilotic minorities. Middayexpress (talk) 18:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

You are write about the White House picture. But what I meant by better quality is not resolution. I was refering to the pictures ability to represent the facial features and look of people from Ethiopia. The child is too young to represent the distinct facial feature familiar to anyone who has meant a Habesha. The picture of the old man and young girl on the other hand are very good at doing exactly that. The picture of the Mursi woman is good at what you said is its intended purpose but 1 picture to represent hundreds of tribes and tens of ethnic groups seems to narrow to me. Hence, why I suggested a picture rotation.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk)

Alright, I see; but WP:IUP recommends image queing/evaluation on the discussion page over constant rotation. The demographics section can aesthetically accommodate only two images at most. The Mursi pic is one. If the Habesha child is too young for this purpose, the Bahir Dar girl would indeed seem a good substitute. An even better representation in this instance would perhaps be these two Habesha girls [3], as their hairstyles are more typical. Middayexpress (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I do not like the fact that they are identified by name. I am very much for representing woman from an urban area. But realize even their hair is not typical when considering the whole country. However, I think you are wrong about the hairstyle of the Bahir Dar girl. That is a very common hairstyle for girls her age. Perhaps not the most typical. But that is the point of regularly changing or adding pictures. Lets start with that picture.

Perhaps, we should consider a gallery of pictures (WP:IG) as we find more appropriate pictures. I think that is the best way to represent the full spectrum of ethnic groups in Ethiopia. We would have to be very discriminating to keep the number of pictures to a manageable level though.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 00:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Picture rotations are generally discouraged because they challenge a page's stability. It's better to select a few images for the long haul. Per the gallery policy, interspersed images are also generally preferred over image galleries. This is why few, if any, other country articles include the latter; particularly vis-a-vis people. Regarding the Habesha women pic, although they are identified by name on the page description, they wouldn't be in the actual wikipedia link. All people pics are ultimately subject to per personality rights anyway, regardless of who is chosen. With respect to the Bahir Dar girl, her almost completely shorn hairstyle is not more common amongst Habesha females than the Habesha girls' longer hairstyle. Habesha women have traditionally worn their hair long (e.g. [4]). Of the short hairstyles, though, this [5] other Habesha girl's hair length is a bit more typical and would be another acceptable substitute. Middayexpress (talk) 12:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I see what you mean on rotation. Also, perhaps the gallery is more appropriate for People of Ethiopia, or not at all anywhere (btw we should both work on differentiating People of Ethiopia from Demographics of Ethiopia). As for the picture of a child, I would instead suggest 1 or 2 as most typical hairstyle. Rarely do girls straighten their hair except in very urban areas. I believe a weave is the most common hairstyle. I would be happy with either one. If you like either one go ahead and add it instead of the baby.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 01:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The girl in the first link does not quite have the distinct Habesha facial features that you alluded to earlier. However, the girl with the almost completely shorn hair clearly does, as does the girl in link #2 above. The latter seems to be wearing dirt-stained clothes, though, which I'm not certain is the best and most typical representation for Habesha on this country page. My preference would be either the original photo of the Habesha baby (which I restored pending an agreement here), or the two alternative Habesha female pics linked to in my previous post. Regarding the page merge, myself and Gyrofrog both support it. I've left a response there. Middayexpress (talk) 17:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, I have had to take action because of repeated attacks at self-promotion by User:Dmitri1999. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Understood. I've tried to accommodate one of his personally taken photos in place of the Mursi woman, though this may be a bit generous given the circumstances. Middayexpress (talk) 17:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not satisfied with the pictures suggested, I must either insist on Bahar Dar girl or suggest these: A, B, C, or D. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Hard to say if any of those images are of Habesha girls specifically. One of them is actually from the Rift Valley. At any rate, I recommend the following Habesha women as an alternative to the Habesha baby and Habesha girls: [6], [7], or [8]. Middayexpress (talk) 15:23, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Why do they have to be "Habesha" (i.e. your strict definition of Habesha)? This section is about People in Ethiopia. You can tell if someone is from Ethiopia even if they are not "Habesha". They all share a characteristic look. Actually, "Habesha" as defined by you are a minority, compared to Oromo or Cushitic people. Everyone of the pictures of girls I have suggested is a better representation of the mix or variety of ethnicities found in Ethiopia. Counting the baby, this is the third time you have suggested pictures of Tigray people, which consist of 6% of the population, again a minority (besides the fact that these pictures are of poor quality, eyes closed, face turned away, overly made-up). Again, I insist that A) A girl from Bati, Amhara (who is actually distinctly Habesha, which you fail to recognize perhaps because she is not wearing the tradishional white) or B) Four girls from a variety of backgrounds in ADDIS ABABA (Addis Ababa is one of the best rep. of the demographics of the country as a whole). A vast majority of Ethiopians ARE NOT purely "Habesha." They also don't wear traditional clothes MOST of the time. You must see the clear NPOV represented in the pictures I have suggested (everyone of them). If we can not find a picture of a Oromo man/woman/child (which I believe this was), then we must do the second best with a Amhara or mix ethnic person.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 22:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

BTW I think User:Dmitri1999 was deleted and perhaps blocked. Funny, he cant revoke his beautiful pictures.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 22:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no indication what ethnic group those Addis Ababa girls belong to; neither in the picture titles, nor the file descriptions, nor the file tags. They are just girls in Addis Ababa, and the picture quality is little different from any of the images I've linked to. The same applies to the Awassa girl and the Bati girl (which is in the Oromia Zone, btw); their ethnic group or macroethnicity are not indicated anywhere. Since there's room for only one more demographic image, a Habesha pic would be the best representative here for the Afro-Asiatic communities because Habesha have historically been the most socioculturally influential. The term traditionally refers to both Ethiopia's and Eritrea's Semitic-speaking highland groups, not to Ethiopians in general. It is synonymous with "Abyssinian" (c.f. [9]). That would include the Amhara, which, going by appearance and location, the Bahir Dar girl probably is. But again, her hair is almost completely shorn off; this is not the length at which most Habesha women have traditionally worn their hair. I therefore recommend either the Habesha baby ([10]), the two Habesha women in Addis Ababa ([11]), or any one of the three Habesha women ([12], [13], [14]). The fact that some of the latter Habesha women are facing forward but not looking directly at the camera shouldn't be an issue here since the one Ethiopian woman in that White House audience pic linked to earlier was shot entirely in profile. Middayexpress (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

So, lets include the Bati girl with the caption exactly as:

A girl from Bati located in the Oromia Zone, which has a 86.07% Oromo population but is located in the Amhara Region.

First of all, it represents the blurred lines of ethnicity that are present in Ethiopia. Perhaps, we can even include this fact in the text. As pointed out in Bati, Ethiopia article:

According to Philip Briggs, this market "forms an important cultural crossroads for the Amhara, Oromo and semi-nomadic, desert-dwelling Afar people."

Ethiopia's ethnic co-existance is a very relevant fact and a more complete representation of the demographics of Ethiopia.

Second, it most likely represents the majority ethnicity in Ethiopia which is Oromo (not only because of her facial features which I would still call Habesha features but also because "[the] two largest ethnic groups reported in Oromia were the Oromo (86.07%), and the Amhara (12.54%)"). At the very least, it represents the macro majority Cushitic people. I will point out again, this section is about the demographics of Ethiopia and "socio-cultural" influence is not as important as pure population numbers. Actually, this idea and picture represents their influence very well because the zone even though it is predominately Oromo is considered part of Amhara or part of Habesha land (I just made up this term, but you get my meaning). We should expand the culture section to include Fashion and perhaps include a picture of a Habesha woman in traditional dress there. I think that is the best place to include one of your pictures.

I don't know if you have noticed but we together have gone through two sections now of this article and made significant improvements. We can move on to the culture section next. Don't consider this the only place that Habesha can be represented. Their importance to understanding Ethiopia and Ethiopian culture is undeniable. They are at the moment very well represented in the history section and could be better represented in culture section (that is if you don't consider Gurage who are also Ethiopian Semitic as Habesha). But Oromo dominance when it comes to population cannot be ignored.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:22, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Habesha women in urban wear.

We don't actually know what is that Bati girl's ethnicity, as it is indicated in neither the file description nor the tags. It's also impossible to say what exact ethnic group she belongs to based alone on her particular features. The most we can say is that she is a girl in Bati, a multi-ethnic town in the Oromia Zone of the Amhara Region. Perhaps she is of mixed ethnicity, perhaps not. Either way, the section should illustrate what is actually discussed in the text. An image of Habesha (Abyssinians) is the best representative here for the Afro-Asiatic groups since Habesha lent the country its original name (Abyssinia), official language (Amharic), most widely used calendar (Ethiopic), national writing script (Ge'ez), etc.. I've presented several such files above for selection. You have not explained, for example, what is wrong with the image on the right of a Habesha woman in traditional attire? She has the distinctive Habesha features you emphasized earlier. Since fashion sections are uncommon on country pages per WP:WPC, discussion of attire should be incorporated into the demographics area; the woman is correspondingly in traditional clothing. Alternatively, we have the image on the right [15] image of two Habesha girls in urban wear. Middayexpress (talk) 15:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Besides the fact that her face is made-up in a western style, there is no indication that she is actually "Habesha". You must understand that the word "Habesha" as it is used in common speech today relates to all Ethiopians. So that whether these women have been labeled as "Habesha" MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If you don't believe me look at this picture where the same woman is dressed in Afar attire. And this picture where she is in what looks like Somali or Muslim Oromo attire (she is the last one in the line). These pictures you have suggested are pictures of actors and performers. They are fake performances paraded in front of tourists.

Argobba girl from Bati located in the Oromia Zone, which has a 86.07% Oromo population but is located in the Amhara Region. Bati is an economic crossroads of the Oromo, Amhara, Argobba and Afar people.

When I uploaded the picture of Bati girl, I could have arbitrarily chosen to label her as "Habesha" and someone taking my word literally would have taken that statement as absolutely true and strict. But I know better. I would not label someone as part of a particular ethnic group with out clear evidence. For example, there is evidence that this girl could be Afar as this girl and this girl also photographed the same day have a similar hairstyle. The girl that is betrothed in first picture is identified as Afar. All of them have distinctly Muslim patterns on their cloths. Actually, after some research, I have identified all of them as Argobba (watch this video), which are "Habesha" by your definition.

When I referred to Habesha features, I was referring to the features that are common to and distinctly found in Ethiopians and Eritreans. The reason an Ethiopian can meet another Ethiopian and immediately recognize them as a fellow Habesha, whether they are Oromo, Amhara, Tigray, Somali, Gurage................

As for Azeb and Meseret, there is no indication even if they are "Habesha". My aunt is named Meseret, she is fully Gurage and Oromo, not Amhara or Tigray. My entire ancestry comes from a small woreda called Soddo (woreda). A woreda in the Gurage Zone of the SNNPR that is surrounded on three sides by the Oromo Region. It actually almost voted to become part of Oromo Zone because the Soddo Gurage people are so closely related to the Oromo people. Actually, all four of my grandparents are partially Oromo and partially Gurage. There are hundreds of places like this in Ethiopia, where the lines of ethnicity are extremely blurred.

There is not even any evidence that the baby previously pictured is "Habesha". The only evidence presented is that he/she is from Tigray, which is 96% Tigray. So it is assumed the baby is as well. Bati girl is easily [ identifiable. I am suggesting that the term "Habesha" is inherently POV and merits no prominence or special attention in a section about the demographics of Ethiopia (besides perhaps the matter of fact mention of the collective reference of certain ethnic groups as Habesha):

dem·o·graph·ics [dem-uh-graf-iks] (used with a plural verb) the statistical data of a population,
especially those showing average age, income, education, etc.

Notice there is no mention of influence or culture.

Notice also that my suggestion clarifies and expands on several points raised in the text:

1. "the Oromo are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia"
2. "The country's population is highly diverse"
3. "Afro-Asiatic communities make up the majority of the population"

It also clarifies the confusion that Ethiopia's ethnic groups are as divided along ethnic lines as they are along regional and administrative lines. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 07:14, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

A Habesha woman in traditional attire performing a cultural dance.

Demographic sections are but summaries of a country's demographic page (c.f. WP:SS). That said, arguing that the historically-attested term Habesha -- which, again, means "Abyssinian" and denotes the Semitic-speaking Ethiopian highlanders [16] -- is pov is not really compelling. For one thing, there's an entire wikipedia article on the Habesha people. I see that you have also presented above a second example of the Bati girl's image and re-labeled her Argobba. It's more obvious, though, that the Habesha baby is indeed Habesha based on appearance, clothing and location alone than it is that the Bati girl is specifically Argobba based on the same factors. The original file does not specify her ethnicity [17]. Sure, some commentator in that other photosbypaulo link suggests she might belong to that ethnic group; but the author could be anybody and posted that any time, nor is he/she the photographer. Moreover, this situation is not equivalent to the photo on the right of the Habesha woman in traditional attire since that image was tagged "Habesha Restaurant" by the uploader. This is a well-known restaurant in Addis Ababa run by Habesha owners, where Habesha food is served and Habesha dancers perform various traditional Ethiopian dances before mainly foreign patrons (c.f. [18]). As for that Habesha woman's makeup, yes it's western; but then again, so is the lipstick on the Ethiopian woman in the White House that you linked to initially, so this shouldn't be an issue either. Middayexpress (talk) 23:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

You are again confusing the common definition of "Habesha" with the strict and technical definition used on Wikipedia. There is no indication that the word "Habesha" in Habesha Restaurant refers to "Abyssinians". You fail to realize how commonly used the term "Habesha" is and how uncertain the intended definition is when it is used.

As for the ethnicity of Bati girl, there is no doubt. If you watch the video I linked, you would realize this. The Amharic narration describes in great detail Argobba culture, hair style, look and customs. AND THIS GIRL FITS IT TO A TEE. If you don't speak Amharic, a look at the girls at 4:29 of the video should be enough to convince you. So this girl is Argobba and therefore "Habesha" by the strictest definition of the word.

As for your suggested picture, you have conveniently ignored the other pictures of the same woman dressed as other ethnic group and another ethnic group both of which are clearly not "Habesha".

I am tired of arguing. It seems to me that you are being intractable. I, on the other hand, have repeatedly and consistently compromised when you have made good arguments. For example, I have long abandoned the idea of picture of the White House woman dressed in "Habesha kemis", even still you bring it up using it as a Red herring. I have abandoned my idea of a picture rotation because you have convinced me it is not appropriate. I have abandoned my idea of a photo gallery—which I still like and for which there is no good argument against—simply because you don't like it. I have suggested many photographs to meet your requirements and abandoned almost all for which you have raised objection.

I have asked for input from the other members of WP:ETH to possibly arbitrate. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 04:10, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

A Tigray girl in the northern Tigray Region.

Per WP:TPYES, please calm down and try and keep posts short & to the point; also avoid caps locking and writing in bold, and remember to assume good faith. That said, from the discussion above, it's clear that compromises have been made both ways. You complained about the longstanding Habesha baby picture on grounds that he/she was "too young to represent the distinct facial feature familiar to anyone who has meant a Habesha". Although there is no wikipedia policy proscribing images of children on this basis, I presented an image of the two Habesha girls in urban wear as an alternative. You then argued that they too were inappropriate because "even their hair is not typical when considering the whole country". This is despite the fact that the hair of the Ethiopian woman in the White House pic that you had proposed earlier is little different (I only keep bringing up the latter to highlight inconsistencies/double standards in your arguments). After much fruitless discussion, I proposed immediate usage of any of the three Commons images of Habesha female performers. You then suggested that all three were likewise inappropriate because the pics were "poor quality, eyes closed, face turned away, overly made-up". This prompted me to point out that the fact that the image quality here was little different from that of the pics you had put forth and that one of the latter images similarly showed a makeup-wearing Ethiopian woman, shot in profile to boot. Now you are arguing that the Bati girl is specifically Argobba based on her clothing and appearance. However, you wrote elsewhere that "there is evidence that this girl could be Afar". The original uploader also did not indicate her ethnicity, the Argobba make up a tiny percentage of the population in multi-ethnic Bati town, and it's impossible to narrow down her particular set of features to the Argobba or any other Habesha sub-ethnicity. You can't very well complain about the ethnicity of the Habesha dancers when none has been presented in the first place for this Bati girl or any of the other images you suggested using. My final proposal is the pic on the right of a girl in the Tigray region. When I first linked to that image, you argued that it was too inappropriate since "Tigray people[...] consist of 6% of the population, again a minority". The Argobba -- which the Bati girl may or may not be -- are hardly any more populous, so this shouldn't been an issue now. Middayexpress (talk) 17:57, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

As Janweh64 noted, the term Habesha today has different meanings to different people. As such, we shouldn't give it special attention in this section. We shouldn't also use images of performers since they usually rotate attires from various ethnic groups. The child is too young for that image to be appropriate illustration for this section. I think the Bati girl image with the caption "A girl from Bati located in the Oromia Zone, which has a 86.07% Oromo population but is located in the Amhara Region." is a good fit. Although her hairstyle is similar to that of the girls in the video, it's still difficult to ascertain her exact ethnicity as pointed out by Middayexpress. Elfalem (talk) 07:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've addressed the other issues above and presented an alternative image. But just to clarify real quickly, Habesha is an historically-attested ethnic designation. Traditionally, it was reserved for the Abyssinians i.e. the Semitic-speaking Ethiopian highlanders or inhabitants of Al-Habash. Middayexpress (talk) 17:57, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I am still of the opinion that this section needs to include a picture that somehow directly represents Oromo. However, I have failed in my attempts to locate any. I have contacted the author of this article in attempt to solicit permission to use this photograph. There is a clear Amhara/Habesha systemic bias in Ethiopian related articles. We must actively work to counteract that. I know I have previously suggested a Amhara girl, but my attempt there was to at least have a photograph that is of better quality in representing Ethiopian features.

The picture you have suggested, besides the fact that it is of a Tigray girl (an ethnic group already represented in Ethiopia article), fails to represent Ethiopian facial features: her face is squinted, the picture is too closely cropped, and "her hair style is not common". I would also point out that there is no clear evidence that the girl is Tigray. The fact that she is from Tigray Region would be circumstantial evidence with your very strict standard of being identified as a particular ethnic group by the author, whom I would argue are often unreliable.

We must resort to other evidence to identify peoples ethnicity. For example Bati girl has identical hair style to this girl who is said to be wearing a Betrothal hair clip which can be seen in this photo of yet another girl with identical hairstyle. This hair clip can be found as an identifying feature at 4:29 of the video. Now, this is a much better method of identifying the ethnicity of a person based on verifiable evidence in line with Wikipedia standards. As can be seen in the first of these photos photographer cannot be relied upon to correctly identify a persons ethnic group.

I think my very latest idea with caption:

Argobba girl from Bati located in the Oromia Zone, which has a 86.07% Oromo population but is located in the Amhara Region.
Bati is an economic crossroads of the Oromo, Amhara, Argobba and Afar people.

perfectly encapsulates all of the issues I have raised while still satisfying your insistance of a photo of a Habesha.

I apologize for my horrible discussion etiquette.— አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

BTW Also the Argobba are known to be traders and merchants (these girls are seated at a traditional Ethiopian open market selling their wares). Their business acument is a fact I have been able to verify. So, it would make sense that they would be concentrated in Bati which is an economic center. This fact is confirmed by comparing this map to this map. The top green spot corresponds to Bati, the middle to an intersection of two major roads and the bottom, I suspect, to their native land which lies between Afar and Amhara. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 05:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

No worries. There are at present no suitable, representative pictures of the Oromo; so let us discuss what is actually available. I was paraphrasing your words when I described the Tigray region girl as Tigray. I do, though, agree that there's no irrefutable evidence that she is Tigray. It only seems like she would be since she certainly looks like she belongs to one of the region's Afro-Asiatic groups, of which the Tigray are by far the most numerous. Though she is squinting a bit, her overall facial expression is also not all that different from that of the Bahir Dar girl that you picked out earlier [19], so this again shouldn't be an issue. By contrast, the Bati girl (whose ethnicity is also not indicated) hails from a town that is multi-ethnic and primarily inhabited by non-Argobba people (c.f. [20]). It's likewise uncertain that she would be Argobba based alone on her hairstyle since, as you pointed out, some Afars from the region appear to wear their hair similarly. I therefore again propose the Tigray region girl's pic, but with the following caption: "Ethiopian girl in the Tigray Region, a kilil where over 96% of inhabitants hail from the Afro-Asiatic-speaking Tigray ethnic group." Middayexpress (talk) 16:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I only even mentioned Afar because that is what the photographer identifies them as. As I have said before though, photographers are totally unreliable in this aspect. I am now totally convinced as you should be that the tightly braided hair which expands to a puff and the betrothal hair clip are distinctly Argobba. I think this is a Afar girl with braids going all the way down to the tips. The latter's features are also distinctly Cushitic which the Afar are.

Until then I am willing to use the Bati girl as per Elfalem. Even though I think I have made a clear argument that the girl is Argobba, I am willing to forego actually calling her Argobba.

However, Tigray girl is not any better than the baby. Although, the new caption is much better. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 08:17, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

The Bati girl has an identical hairstyle to another girl that the photographer labels Afar [21] along with a betrothal hair clip [22]. That doesn't exactly support the contention (which the photographer does not make) that she is Argobba based alone on that hairstyle. Even if the girl were Argobba, which is uncertain, the ethnic group is but a fraction in size of the Tigray. So it's clear at least based on the population size criteria you picked out earlier that the Tigray region girl is preferable here. I've commented below on Eflalem's other notable people gallery suggestion. Middayexpress (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

How about a photo montage like the one in the Brazil article? It can be a composite of say four images. Elfalem (talk) 04:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I object to the use of famous people to represent ethnicity in Ethiopia related articles. It could lead to edit warring based on POV preference. However, I am OK with that idea if pictures of non-notable people with verifiable ethnicity can be obtained. I had suggested a similar idea in the form of a photo gallery potentially allowing us to represent all 80+ ethnic groups as in Berber people. We could have four featured ethnic groups and a button to expand to show every other group ranked by population (I will settle for a collage of four). I know the example is not the same as representing people. However, that there is no precedent for it should not prevent us from using our best judgement to represent Ethiopia in the most accurate way. Wikipedia is intended to be constantly improved and rules are meant to be broken when they prevent the improvement of an article. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 05:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:PG outlines Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. It indicates that "although Wikipedia does not employ hard-and-fast rules, Wikipedia policy and guideline pages describe its principles and best-known practices[...] policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts." That said, per the gallery policy, interspersed images are generally preferred over image galleries. This is why few other country articles include such montages, particularly vis-a-vis people. The Brazil page is an exception; but note that it's montage doesn't feature any anonymous individuals, only notable ones. This is preferable as a last resort since it streamlines the selection process to a necessarily finite number of choices. Our priority, however, should be to intersperse a suitable image in the relevant section, as per standard. Middayexpress (talk) 16:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

First, WP:IG says:

Images are typically interspersed individually throughout an article near the relevant text (see WP:MOSIMAGES). However, the use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject.

This fits this situation perfectly because two photographs can not fairly and accurately represent the full demographics of Ethiopia. We would essentially be following this policy. The only "rule" we would be breaking is common practice of not using a picture gallery to represent the people of a country. However, there is no rule against not following common practice especially when the new method would drastically improve the fair representation of the subject and as a whole has "encyclopedic value and adds to the reader's understanding of the subject".

Second, I think using notable people will seriously compromise the stability of this article, a concern Middayexpress pointed out that I agree is very important. We would be choosing one famous person to represent each major ethnic group. For example, Meles Zenawi would be an obvious choice for Tigray people. However, many people disagree with his political views and record. This could lead to vandalism and serious edit wars. Also a picture of Meles or any other person in western clothing would not be a good representation of the culture and ethnicity of the people.

Third, I have made progress in obtaining permission to publish the picture of the Oromo woman above. The author has given tentative approval and only has asked for further explanation of licensing. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:54, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

When discussing with another editor, it's best to address him/her directly and in the second person. At any rate, there is no rule stipulating that images must include people in traditional clothing (several of the Addis schoolgirls you presented earlier are in urban wear, btw). The demographic section obviously cannot address the full scope of the demographics of Ethiopia, nor is meant to. All the subtopic is supposed to do per WP:SS is summarize/provide a lead-in for the main demographics of Ethiopia article. It already does this, both in terms of text and images. The fact is, a gallery of people is not at all a common feature of country articles. Such montages are vulnerable to edit wars and oneupmanship no matter who is selected. Famous people may be deemed "controversial" for any number of reasons (Zenawi, incidentally, is already pictured); unknown individuals may likewise be held to be "unrepresentative" relative to other selected persons from related ethnic groups. It's therefore best to follow standard practice and simply agree on one or two images to introduce the main subtopic article. Middayexpress (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting to use notable people, I only meant to point out the montage format. Anyways, it is difficult to represent the many ethnic groups in such a small space. Therefore, I suggest the use of a chart listing the top x largest groups (like in Ghana#Demographics) instead of the picture leaving only the Hamer picture. Then in the "Demographics of Ethiopia" article (after consolidating the other similar articles) to have a gallery to show as many of the ethnic groups as possible. Elfalem (talk) 05:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

The Brazil page you linked to includes a gallery exclusively of notable people and it appears to be the only country page that features a people gallery at all. At any rate, an ethnicity table sounds like an acceptable compromise. However, the Hamer image will have to be replaced because they are a minority group in numerical, cultural and ethnic terms. The Tigray region girl image [23] is more representative of the country's predominant Afro-Asiatic communities in this respect. Alternatively, the section could feature no ethnicity image at all, as on the Ghana page; instead, it would include the existing historical population table and an abridged ethnicity table. Middayexpress (talk) 14:26, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with chart and no photo. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 00:23, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I'll draft the chart/table then present it here shortly. Middayexpress (talk) 15:24, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Not necessary, we have a consensus among editors involved. Unless, Elfalem is dead set on including Hamer picture. Otherwise, I have created a chart limiting to ethnic groups with > 1 million population. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 20:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed; nice chart/table. Middayexpress (talk) 21:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, I wish the Hamer picture was left because of its artistic quality but I'm glad an agreement has been reached. I was thinking we could add a picture for each ethnic group in the List of ethnic groups in Ethiopia page. Elfalem (talk) 21:55, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, the photo is not lost in Wikipedia. It is still included in Hamer people. We can definitely add it to List of ethnic groups in Ethiopia stacked along with others on the right side similar to List of cities and towns in Ethiopia. We would need a lot more of photos where we can agree are clearly identifiable as that ethnic group. Let's start a discussion in its talk page for inclusion of pictures there. If no objections, I have requested this discussion be closed. — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 23:12, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It will be a challenge to find a suitable, representative image for each ethnic group; the Argobba issue in particular shows that. This discussion may be closed, all the same. Middayexpress (talk) 15:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Name

Arabic Habasha is not "modern Arabic" as it is the Classical Arabic name for Ethiopia. It is now not used diplomaticaly or journalisticaly after a systematic campaign by the Ethiopian government in the 1070's to erase all cognates of that word in various languages when refering to the country. I have heard various reasons for this, but the most rational argument is that it refers to the Semitic speakers only. Habashat was the name of a South Arabian tribe. Support for this argument may be found in Encyclopaedia of Islam II. Unfortunately, I do not have a reference supporting my contention, deriving from memory of the event in a newspaper, that there was such a campaign by the Ethiopian government.

Ybgursey (talk) 06:28, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Did you mean 1970's? — አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 01:29, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The name Habesha is Amharic (and Tigrinya), and is not offensive. It refers collectively to Ethiopian Semitic speakers. Should be no confusion or uncertainty there now about what it refers to, right? Until 1930 most other countries in their languages had called Ethiopia by cognates of Habesha, such as Abyssinia in English. From the 1930s, Emperor Haile Selassie I argued that what was already the native official name for the country since at least ca. 300, Ethiopia, would also be more appropriate for international usage than the cognates of Habesha, because the name Ethiopia is inclusive of non-Habesha Ethiopians. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

It would be useful to know what the 'indigenous' people(s) called their country. All the names given in the article have been attached from outside. Ancient Egypt, for example, had several different names, but the only name that those who lived in the country gave themselves seems to have been 'people' (rmt). Pamour (talk) 11:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

'Useful' to what purpose? What exactly would this information be 'useful' to you for? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:17, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Updating population statistics

The article uses several sources that offer quite different and confusing population statistics, some of which are very hard to verify. Others seem to be estimates and projections. The English-language rolling summary on the Ethiopian Govt's own website, for example, seems to give a total figure from 2007. Overall, such variations are likely to confuse readers. No point in claiming source consistency if there's none, but it's a major article and in this respect at least, could do with a thorough clean-up. I'd offer, but I'm somewhat disadvantaged by my complete ignorance of the Ethiopian script and language... Amharic, I guess... my ignorance is boundless, alas. Haploidavey (talk) 09:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Leprosy camp near Mota

In a Hungarian book, there's a report from the year 2000 about a leprosy camp called LC2 (Leprosy Camp 2) "near the lake Tana, above Mota". By that time, it was attempted to be kept secret, guarded by the military. It consisted of three sections, where the patients were sorted according to the progress of their disease. The second section, with more advanced cases was somewhat apart, and the third, with the "faceless people" (final stages), approx. 6-8Km (3,7-4,9Mi) apart from the first, in a depression on a mountain, accessible through a very narrow passage. In the 1990 there were about 2800 patients, in 2000 about 7000. That's all info to be found. Does anyone know about it, or have spotted it on satellite images? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.68.122 (talk) 22:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "known to scientists" in the lead

There's a discussion about the phrase "known to scientists" going on Wikipedia:NPOVN#Attribution_issue_at_Ethiopia_-_do_we_need_to_say_.22known_to_scientists.22.3F. Comments are welcome –Jérôme (talk) 13:27, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

An incredible argument, indeed. "Known" is surely the stronger term, as "known to scientists" may carry an implication that some non-scientists know something different. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks. I don't know why Til decided to pick this to edit war about, maybe it was simply because it was me reverting him, which I did simply because it was so obviously wrong (and pov, although he seems to think he was the one following NPOV). Dougweller (talk) 15:06, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—168.187.28.120 (talk) 18:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

You haven't explained what you think is erroneous, but I've tweaked the coordinates in the infobox slightly. If you still think that the coordinates need to be corrected, please post a clear explantion of the problem below, including the {{geodata-check}} template, and someone will be along to address your concerns. Deor (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Dictatorship, one-party state or an authoritarian democracy

Is Ethiopia a dictatorship, a de facto one-party state or an authoritarian democracy (in the mold of Russia)? --TIAYN (talk) 20:40, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Was Ethiopia previously landlocked?

I don't know all that much about Eritrea, but I know it was considered part of Ethiopia for a while. Now that Eritrea is independent, we know that Ethiopia is definitely a landlocked country, but was it landlocked BEFORE Eritrea became part of Ethiopia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 20:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

In general, yes. The Red Sea coastal regions, right down to Somalia, were part of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century onwards (to at least the mid-19th century I think). Not sure exactly when that ended, but at any rate Ethiopia certainly didn't have any kind of effective control over any area near the coast in the late 19th/early 20th century. 83.254.159.43 (talk) 05:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Global Fire Power

Global Fire Power is the original ranker and its system is global; hence, its tradename. It has Ethiopia at 40th in the world, not 1st in Sub-Saharan Africa [24]. The latter is from the Nazret blog, which is merely relaying Global Fire Power's ranking, albeit with its own angle. Given the foregoing, I've linked directly to Global Fire Power's actual 40th worldwide ranking. Middayexpress (talk) 17:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

first hijra in Islamic history

This could use some explanation or sourcing. The first Hijra in Islamic history was from Mecca to Medina. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe what was meant is the First Hijirah, in capital letters. Middayexpress (talk) 17:52, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Population Estimation

How can an estimate of Millions be accurate to a single digit? That number should be rounded sensibly. Stefanhanoi (talk) 09:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it should've read 88 million. Middayexpress (talk) 21:56, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Rastafarianism

Rastafarianism is not a religion of Ethiopia, nor are Rastafarians one of Ethiopia's recognized populations. They are therefore WP:OFFTOPIC in the lede. See the Israel wikipage for the similar Hebrew Israelites, who by contrast do have a notable presence in that country. Middayexpress (talk) 21:55, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

:Nonsense, there is a significant Rastafari presence in Ethiopia, do not try to sound like an authority on things you are clearly not Binghi Dad (talk) 22:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and there's a tourist presence too. Neither is sizable or one of the Ethiopian government's recognized local populations. Also, kindly refrain from using anonymous ips. Middayexpress (talk) 22:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

:::It is obvious that you have issues. However wikipedia does not care what your issues are or if you consider Rastafarians (not -ism) something like a tourist movement in your esteemed opinion. Ethiopia is significant as a spiritual homeland to the Rastafari movement and this fact should not be unilaterally and repeatedly censored from the lede by you. Binghi Dad (talk) 22:51, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware that Rastafarians claim Ethiopia as their spiritual homeland, just as the Hebrew Israelites claim Jerusalem as their spiritual homeland. That doesn't change the fact that Rastafarians similarly are not one of Ethiopia's officially recognized populations nor is Rastafarianism one of Ethiopia's major religions. Neither have roots in the country, so mentioning them in the lede when not even Ethiopia's own actual populations are is undue. Ironically, you also simultaneously removed historical material on the Kingdom of Aksum (an actual Ethiopian entity) from the Book of Aksum. Middayexpress (talk) 23:22, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

"Nonsense, there is a significant Rastafari presence in Ethiopia", you must be joking. If this community was "significant" as you claim why did you not provide a source? Seeing how "significant" they are it would have been quite easy for you to find one. I would also like to point out how you removed sourced content without a legitimate reason. There is absolutely no reason for such act on Wikipedia. AcidSnow (talk)

You must be joking, it is absurdly easy to verify that the Rastafari presence in Ethiopia is significant - and even includes non-immigrants, are you saying you did not know this without a source? That is only why I disputed the edit, nothing to do with Aksum. Binghi Dad (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

You have completely missed the point if this discussion. You might want to see WP:VERIFY and WP:UNDUE. As for this, "That is only why I disputed the edit, nothing to do with Aksum", there is no reason to take a dispute out on Wikipedia. That is a complete violation of Wikipedias policies. AcidSnow (talk) 23:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The WP:BURDEN is not on us to disprove the allegedly "significant" presence of Rastafarians in Ethiopia, but rather for you to prove it. Regardless of whether or not it was a mistake on your part, you also removed the historical testimony on the Kingdom of Aksum's first capital and builder. Middayexpress (talk) 23:50, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

:::::::::This is starting to look like a case of "article ownership". User Middayexpress feels that he OWNS this article Ethiopia. He looks at it, says, "We're not going to have any mention of Rastafari in MY article." and fights like hell to get it out, including running first and only to his collaborating partner who always backs him up regardless. The important thing you are forgetting though is, even if you do not care for Rastafari in Ethiopia, this still isn't just YOUR article. Binghi Dad (talk) 17:34, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks and incivility like the above are both against policy and counterproductive, "Binghi Dad". It's also peculiar that you keep alluding to website policy when you just registered this account a little over a month ago (per WP:NEWBIE, "it is very unlikely for a newcomer to be completely familiar with all of the policies, guidelines, and community standards of Wikipedia when they start editing[...] even the most experienced editors may need a gentle reminder from time to time"). At any rate, the WP:BURDEN is still very much on you to disprove the allegedly "significant" presence of Rastafarians in Ethiopia. More than that, you must also prove that "Ethiopia is also the spiritual homeland of the Rastafari movement" since that's what the wikitext actually indicated. That's a statement of fact in Wikipedia's voice, not of personal belief attributed to Rastafarians. It is also undue for the lede, where not even Ethiopia's own actual populations are mentioned. Similarly, asserting that "Israel is also the spiritual homeland of the Hebrew Israelites movement" would be undue for the Israel wikipage's lede (although the Hebrew Israelites do, by contrast, have a sizable presence in that country). Unfortunately, the late User:Til Eulenspiegel (who coincidentally specializes in this area) is no longer with us to provide clarification. Middayexpress (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The above is a living example of your repeated attempts to deflect from the basic simple question at hand, (i.e. Could the Rastafari connection to Ethiopia and Haile Selassie I be noteworthy to readers of this article even though it is not noteworthy to you?) and deflect attention onto me as your opponent. Even if you could make me "go away" by using some technicality or another do you seriously believe to yourself that you are making the "problem" go away? It won't go away, it will come back to bite you and expose you before the whole world in so doing. Binghi Dad (talk) 18:35, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

You might want to stop with the accusations like I recommended earlier. Nowhere does Midday state ""We're not going to have any mention of Rastafari in MY article.". You might want to read WP:NPA and WP:CIV and the others that you previously ignored. AcidSnow (talk) 18:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

You're now arguing something different. You wrote above that "Ethiopia is significant as a spiritual homeland to the Rastafari movement and this fact should not be unilaterally and repeatedly censored from the lede by you". Now you are suggesting that the matter is actually whether "could the Rastafari connection to Ethiopia and Haile Selassie I be noteworthy to readers of this article". I actually agree that the latter is probably notable, just not in the lede or on Haile Selassie's image. It would also need qualification since, for one thing, Haile Selassie did not regard himself as a living God and is on record as having expressed confusion over the Rastafarians' worship of him. He was also lambasted by the Rastafarian founder Marcus Garvey, after Haile Selassie had rejected an invitation to attend one of the Garvey organization's functions abroad. Middayexpress (talk) 19:21, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

::It is your assertion that "Haile Selassie did not regard himself as a living God and is on record as having expressed confusion". I believe this has been explained patiently to you before, but this is only your assertion, since there is no such record of him expressing any confusion, so you must be careful not to prevaricate. Western governments are on record as repeatedly begging him to issue such a clarifying statement but he pointedly refused on several occasions to their considerable disappointment. Not content with that, the Wetsern media such as the BBC and Time Magazine sought to put these words into his mouth following the end of his reign. However all of his public statements regarding the Rastafari movement and directly to the Rastafari movement are on record. We had hoped that you were ready to drop this stick but if you want to take it up again now let us know. Binghi Dad (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Who exactly is "we"? lol The discussion above is between myself, you and AcidSnow, and your account was just registered. It's also amusing that you should try and project Haile Selassie's own assertions onto me and the vague "Western media". But alas, it's indeed Haile Selassie himself who asserted this [25]: "Selassie said, "I am a man; I am mortal. I will be replaced by the oncoming generation. They should never make the mistake of assuming or pretending that a human being is emanated from a deity."" Middayexpress (talk) 20:35, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

A very interesting statement for a man that has "no such record of him expressing any confusion". AcidSnow (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

:::::Where did Haile Selassie I ever state "I am confused about this" ??? Where did he ever state any words suggesting to you that he was confused? He was not the least confused and never said he was; thus if you say he admitted to being confused you are "prevaricating" about his words.

Where did he say he did not regard himself as living God? Once again you are falsely putting the very words into his mouth that he was repeatedly requested by Whitehall (on record) to utter, but refused even once to do so during his lifetime. He said he was a man and he was mortal, sure. In case anyone out there is still ignorant about his subtle answer, according to Ethiopian Christianity Jesus Christ is a man and was mortal,in addition to being God. Haile Selassie was asked directly the question if he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. He did not say yes or no, however he wisely gave two points of similarity between himself and Jesus Christ, ie his being a man and mortal, that answer does not rule out their being the same nor does it rule out if he thought he was God (which is not what he was asked). I am quite aware that this very question was the matter of a previously settled arb-com case, which is why I wonder why you have chosen this moment to begin again militating against inclusion of information on Rastafari views, and I strongly question your wisdom in doing so as well. Binghi Dad (talk) 21:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

This is quite confusing. you keep asking "where?" when we have always already shown you. What is even more confusing is how you have yet to provided us with anything other than your own original research. It would be nice if you could do something other than that. Anyways, read this: "He wanted to be absolutely clear that he was not a saint or a messiah or whatever. He was just an Emperor of Ethiopia". AcidSnow (talk) 21:50, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The man indeed could not have been clearer. He was actually an observant Ethiopian Orthodox Christian throughout his lifetime. Middayexpress (talk) 22:08, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

::::::::You cannot show a single quote from him expressly denying being either Jesus or God, although he was on record repeatedly refusing to. He told the Prime Minister of Jamaica in 1966 expressly that he would agree to no such statement, saying "Who am I to tell them what to believe?" It was a similar story with the British government as far as the 1950s. At no point did he once say nor imply he was "confused"; that is a bald faced prevarication. This has all payed out before in arb-com as no doubt you were aware, or should have been. You have only provided materials attacking the Rastafari faith and your opinions about their faith should not be reason for you to censor mention of them fro this article. Binghi Dad (talk) 23:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

You must be joking. Can you at least provide one source backing your statements? Anyways, this whole discussion has become WP:OFFTOPIC. AcidSnow (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Do you expect me to believe that you - presumably an adult - are honestly incapable of finding any source verifying these statements removed from the article and therefore as far as you are concerned it is all bogus, like you are the supreme judge here and everything has to be run past you to see if it is acceptable? On the contrary it is you who have pulled arguments out of the woodwork to censor mention of a religion because of your expressed opinion of it, and you say I am the one who must be joking, no sir I am not joking Binghi Dad (talk) 23:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you read WP:BURDEN? " AcidSnow (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::::If you are pretending you do not know these were true statements, and are too lazy to do a simple five second google search in case you honestly were ignorant of these things, what right do you have to lay a burden on me to "prove" them to your satisfaction? Binghi Dad (talk) 00:17, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Then why are you asking us to prove ours when you to could have done the same? This would have nerver became a "burden" for you if you had done it earlier. Anyways, I have yet to make any "attack" against Rastafarianism let alone any form of "censorship". In fact, you asked us to prove that Haile Selassie stated that he was not God after Midday pointed out. Anyways, this disscusion has become WP:OFFTOPIC. You might also want to read: WP:BURDEN, WP:VERIFY, WP:CIVILITY, PERSONALATTACKS, and most of all WP:IDONTLIKEIT. AcidSnow (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::::::No actual quote of Haile Selassie I ever once stating he was not God, was ever found, and once again, this very point has been arbitrated upon. Binghi Dad (talk) 00:34, 11 August 2014 (UTC) "No quote", you must be joking. Midday and I have pointed it out several times. Here it is again: "Selassie said, "I am a man; I am mortal. I will be replaced by the oncoming generation. They should never make the mistake of assuming or pretending that a human being is emanated from a deity."". As you can clearly see, he has stated that he is "mortal" (a human) and that you must not mistake a human (a mortal) for a "deity" (a God). This means that he is not Jesus, a Messiah or a God. I have now broken this quote down for you. Anyways, as I pointed out earlier, you have a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. AcidSnow (talk) 00:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC) :More like you have a case of "ICANTHEARTHAT"... One more time: This entire side argument has been played out thoroughly in arb-com, bringing out a few pages worth of all the recorded statements he gave over the years regarding the Rastafari movement, and never would he dissuade them in the slightest from their faith. At any rate, what does your estimation of the claims of someone else's firm belief system, really have to do with whether the article about them can be linked or mentioned from this one? Binghi Dad (talk) 00:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

You must be joking. I told you several times that this discussion has become off topic but you have refused to acknowledge it. Instead, you asked us constantly to prove pointless things that were off topic. AcidSnow (talk) 01:17, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

You just keep pasting the same irrelevant quote. As for that quote that you "broke down" for me, let me try to explain it like this. If we believe that Haile Selassie I was a man and mortal, and if we believe that Jesus Christ was a man and mortal, and if we believe that one is the reincarnation of the other, then how is that quote any problem for us? But more importantly - and this is what I do have trouble understanding - why should it be a problem for you if that's what we want to believe? And what do you hope to accomplish by mounting your own attack on doctrines Rastafari believe, as a rationale for excluding them as unworthy of mention in this wikipedia article? Thanks Binghi Dad (talk) 01:23, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

"same irrelevant quote", you must be joking. You asked us several times to prove that he said he was not God. So explain to us how it is "irrelevant'? I have never made an "attack" against Rastafaris or their beliefs. So please stop with these personal attacks. You are seriously risking being blocked for this behavior. Anyways, as I stated earlier you are arguing pointless and off topic stuff with me and Midday. AcidSnow (talk) 01:43, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

:::::Ooh, then I take it from that response then that it is definitely a problem with you if we believe that Haile Selassie is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Binghi Dad (talk) 01:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Take what you want but I doubt it is the truth. Your belief is not the problem but how you keep arguing pointless and off topic things. I don't care what you believe but keep it off Wikipedia. AcidSnow (talk) 01:56, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I am only here to argue for the continued inclusion of mention of the Rastafari belief as a worthy and notable topic for researchers in this article. Your response was to mount your own direct rebuttal of core Rastafari tenets, and threaten me with block for disagreeing (and agreeing with arb-com). You ought not to get off that easy. Binghi Dad (talk) 02:01, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I have never threaten you with anything. "Your response", you asked us to prove this! "threaten me with block for disagreeing (and agreeing with arb-com)", what are you talking about? You were warned about being blocked for your inapproabte behavior! Can you please stop making things up? AcidSnow (talk) 02:06, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

:::::::::As anyone may read above, from the beginning when you raised the quote, I advised you that this was the outcome of an arb-com decision and that your own peculiar reinterpretation of the quote is not at all relevant to the question of including a mention Rastafari on this page. You proceeded to adduce your reasoning that this must mean Haile Selassie cannot be God, even though he pointedly did not even address that particular question at any time (that takes basic reading comprehension). You falsely claimed that His Majesty stated he was confused (about what was he confused?) Your argument constitutes an attack on the religions of other editors and readership among others, then you seek to have me penalized with an admin, just for being here and responding to your falsehoods instead of saying "Sure, that's fine! I have no problem with your attacking other religions as an argument for excluding relevant mention of them, go right ahead." If that's what I was expected to say, go ahead and block me for disagreeing with you. Binghi Dad (talk) 06:30, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Binghi Dad What is all this about ArbCom? ArbCom doesn't make content decisions (I used to be an ArbCom clerk). So what exactly are you claiming? Dougweller (talk) 19:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I certainly support a reliably sourced mention of Rastafari in the article, it clearly passes any notability threshold because in the world rasta and Ethiopia are associated in a reasonably mainstream way. It doesnt seem to me that a significant presence of rastas in Ethiopia is required but signioficant sources that connect Ethiopia and Rastafari. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:30, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Among Rastafarian adherents there's perhaps a close connection, just as Hebrew Israelites feel a spiritual connection with Israel. However, on the ground in Ethiopia proper, Rastafarianism barely has a presence [26]: "Selassie, a devout Ethiopian Orthodox Christian, rejected the notion that he had divine powers[...] Selassie was alternately bemused and perplexed by the Rastafarians, and by the adoration he encountered whenever he traveled outside his country[...] But he also firmly rejected their theology, and Rastafarianism never took root in Ethiopia." Given this, a note in the body mentioning that Rastafarians regard Ethiopia as their spiritual homeland wouldn't seem out of place; however, placing it in the lede would be undue. Middayexpress (talk) 20:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I dont disagree that Rastas from outside Ethiopia are rare in Ethiopia and perhaps it has not spread there as much as in other parts of Africa though even so its a minority religion everywhere in Africa where it is found. Having said that google books are NOT a reliable source for anything on wikipedia. I dont though agree with your comments re Selassie and Rastafari at all, they sound like they have come form an anti rasta Christian website, of which there are a number. He firmly rejected disturbing their faith but there is no evidence whatsoever that he rejected their theology. I would have thought a mention of Rastafari and the movements connection to Ethiopia would be entirely right, posibly in connectionw ith Bob Marley. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The material above isn't from anti-Rastafarian websites (which by the way I agree aren't reliable sources). That said, this page is under WP:Countries, which has specific guidelines as to what is appropriate on country wikipages. For the lede, it indicates that the name of the country, location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like should be noted, as well as "a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for" i.e. its main attributes. That's why whether or not Rastafarians have a significant presence in Ethiopia matters. According to the Pew Research Center, which documents the percentages of the major and minor religions in all countries, Rastafarianism is neither a major nor a minor religion in Ethiopia [27]. WP:Countries also indicates that only a country's "major religions" should be noted. Despite this, an exception could perhaps be made. It could be noted in the relevant religion area that although Rastafarian adherents do not have a significant presence in Ethiopia, they nonetheless regard the nation as their spiritual homeland. Middayexpress (talk) 21:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

It also matters how the world sees Ethiopia. May not be for the opening but its a significant enough fact about Ethiopia that Rastas for instance use the Ethiopian flag and see it as a homeland (spiritual? not exclusively). How the world sees Ethiopia is also important, not merely how it percieves itself, and rasta should not be mentioned because its a rleigion practiced in Ethiopia but because itis soemthing well knownm int he world connected to Ethiopia so a rasta presence in the country is NOT required to include something about them. And Selassie's views on Rastafari are not appropriate in this article. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 21:42, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Please have a look at WP:Countries for the appropriate national criteria; it is strictly centered on the actual country. I realize that Rastafarians feel a tie with Ethiopia. The fact remains, though, that they aren't literally Ethiopian expatriates; Ethiopia is not where their ancestors emigrated from to the New World. The Rastafarian situation thus parallels that of the Hebrew Israelites in Israel, who both spiritually and literally regard Israel as their homeland, and consequently cherish the Israeli flag of David. The difference is that Hebrew Israelites do have a minor presence today in Israel. At any rate, if I understand you correctly, you appear to be suggesting that we should indicate that Ethiopia is the spiritual homeland of Rastafarianism, with no attribution that this is what Rastafarians specifically believe. If so, this cannot be done since that would be asserting a personal belief of Rastafarian adherents as a statement of fact in Wikipedia's voice. Middayexpress (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

It is not that rastas feel a tie to Ethiopia, it is that they are perceived to do so by reliable sources. That link is to a wikiproject not a guideline and I cant see where it says what you are saying, can you give me a quote to search on the page? I think we should attribute what the sources say, and it is a belief, yes, rather than them say being ex-pats, so we wouldnt include Bob marley on a list of famous Ethiopians and I havent said we shouldnt say it is their belief, you misunderstood me there, though not sure why. As a side issue I suggest we dont use the word Rastafarianism in the article. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 23:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a Wikiproject, and as it indicates, it helps develop and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. The relevant clauses therein are already noted above, though there are others. That said, Rastafarians do apparently feel a homeland tie to Ethiopia since they believe that Zion (their suggested birthplace of all humankind) is in Ethiopia, advocate "repatriation" to Ethiopia, and regard Haile Selassie as God incarnate. This perhaps could be briefly noted in the appropriate religion area. I'm not sure what you mean by not using the word "Rastafarianism". Are you suggesting that we don't refer to the faith itself? Or do you mean that "Rastafari" is preferable over "Rastafarianism"? I understand that some adherents prefer the former term. If "Rastafarianism" is perceived as pejorative, unrepresentative or otherwise inappropriate by many of the faith's practitioners, it indeed should be avoided per wp:label in favor of "Rastafari" or another acceptable alternative. Middayexpress (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Struck sockpuppet comments

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Til Eulenspiegel. Dougweller (talk) 13:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Question

This article:

"The new Provisional Military Administrative Council established a one-party communist state which was called People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia in March 1975."

But go to People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia:

"The People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (PDRE) was the official name of Ethiopia from 1987 to 1991…"

--YeOldeGentleman (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposition of subsection on landgrabbing in Ethiopia (new)

Hello,

I suggest a subsection on landgrabbing for the section on the economy. Kind regards, Sarcelles (talk) 17:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Human Rights Notable enough to be in Lead of Ethiopia and as Separate Section

If the human rights situation in Eritrea is notable enough for consideration in the Lead of the Eritrea section, then the Human Rights Situation in Ethiopia should have its own section as well as mention in the Lead in the Ethiopia article:

This and following content is extremely notable and should have good representation in the lead. GregKaye 05:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, this seems entirely appropriate. Cpsoper (talk) 23:03, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

This from the Talk on Eritrea Article. --Puhleec (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

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Ethiopia Flag should show All Flags of Ethiopia not only current flag

If this Ethiopia wiki article is about Ethiopia from Past to Present, then referring to Ethiopia as "Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia" which is based on the current Ethnic federalist regime (since 1993). The Flags of Ethiopia under the Haile Selassie, Menelik II, Atsi Yohannis, etc (Solomonic Dynasty) should also be shown as those were for over a thousand year. Also, the reign of the communist Derg regime , the Flag was just the colors (no symbol in the middle). The current flag of "Ethiopia" is the Flag of the EPRDF/TPLF ethnic federalist regime. This article is not showing a Balanced Neutral view of Ethiopia via it's flag. Otakrem (talk) 21:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

There is really no bias here. In the infobox we show the flag used by the United Nations member currently recognized by the other United Nations members. If you click on the article for the flag of Ethiopia, you will see there all the historical flags of the past. This is exactly the same as we do for every other country. 71.246.156.3 (talk) 21:52, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

This flag is Pro-EPRDF/TPLF. The UN is not the final Arbiter of the Existence of Countries. Obviously Palestine(UNbacked) doesn't Exist but Israel(USbacked) does. So you are saying that if the Nazi Swastika Flag was Germany's flag of today, that you would show that Flag to represent Germany all through Germany's history (majority of it Non-Nazi)? Otakrem (talk) 23:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

The UN may not be the final arbiter of the existence of countries, but there is at present no other arbiter in existence that we go by here. 71.246.156.3 (talk) 01:00, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

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