Talk:Environs (journal)

Requested move 8 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:07, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

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Environs (journal) → Environs – Target is a redirect to disambiguation page at Environ. Move per WP:PLURALPT and add hatnote. The DAB doesn't list it (nor have "environs" in the {{wikt}} box, although environs is a separate entry: before 28 June 2018 Environs was a soft R to Wiktionary).

User page views for the last 60 days are 71 for "Environs" and 54 for "Environs (journal)" (= 125 total), the DAB gets 375, a ratio of exactly 1:3.

If consensus is not to move, we should of course list it at the DAB page. 92.249.211.146 (talk) 05:40, 8 January 2019 (UTC) --Relisted. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  20:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Relist note: members of WikiProjects Academic Journals, Law and Environment have been notified of this debate. Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  21:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. There is no other article on WP that could use the title (and the 2 entries on the Environ dab page could never be pluralized). Station1 (talk) 06:51, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Not primary over the plural of the basic term. Fix DAB page to include a listing for the journal. There is no need to for a wikt link to a standard plural, as that is already part of the main wikt definition. -- Netoholic @ 07:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

• There is no singular noun "environ". The noun is always "environs". "Environ" is only a verb, meaning to surround or encircle. Station1 (talk) 07:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

• Its both verb and noun, and the noun form is most often seen in the plural. My point stands. -- Netoholic @ 08:01, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

The OED, Collins and Merriam-Webster only give "environ" as a verb, so I think Wiktionary is wrong to list it as a noun (the quotation, from Austen, uses the plural). The OED, Collins, MW and Wiktionary give separate etymologies for "environ" (14thC from middle English, from Old French) and "environs" (17th Century, from French: Collins says a different route via MedE from OFr, so perhaps earlier).

But WP:NOTDIC, and that doesn't help us with the question: "does 'environs' mean the journal, or can it mean other things we have articles about?" 92.249.211.146 (talk) 09:02, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Complete misuse of NOTDIC. No one here is desiring to create a dictionary definition. NOTDIC doesn't mean we should just fail to acknowledge the English language as it exists. -- Netoholic @ 09:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

I was neither using nor misusing WP:NOTDIC. I was trying to say that it is irrelevant whether "environ" is a singular noun. This subject is called "Environs" and as a title of a periodical is a singular, proper noun (like The Times or Tit-Bits). I was probably wrong to mention WP:PLURALPT in the proposal. (Proposer, different IP) 62.165.227.157 (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose environs means environs, not this journal. 09:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk • contribs)
• Support per Station1. Encyclopedically, "Environs" means this journal, not the dictdef. Dohn joe (talk) 15:58, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support. The only other meaning is the dicdef, and that's what DAB pages and their Wiktionary links are for.

If moved, the article should have a hatnote to the DAB page Environ. Narky Blert (talk) 11:48, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is clear from page views that most people who search for Environs are not looking for the journal. We have an article at Surroundings. If that article shouldn't exist it should be taken care of first, but as it stands Surroundings is a perfectly valid target for Environs. Dekimasuよ! 14:06, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

• Nothing in those pageviews indicates people arriving to "Surroundings" are doing it through "Environ". © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 21:06, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• Right. But it shows the disambiguation page getting over 5000 hits, and only 300 readers eventually arriving at the journal. Dekimasuよ! 05:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Those pageviews cover July 2015-Dec 2018, but until 28 June 2018 Environs was a soft redirect to Wiktionary, and the Environ dab page did not contain any links to either Environs (journal) or surroundings. If we look at July-Dec 2018, the journal gets 162 pageviews compared to 233 for the Environs redirect. That doesn't negate your point, since many readers no doubt get to the journal's article directly, but it's not quite as overwhelming as the longer timeframe makes it appear. Station1 (talk) 08:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, I have no confidence that there is a clear primary topic of this term. bd2412 T 18:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with Station1 (talk · contribs) here. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:29, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. The present article name is clear and unambiguous. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 06:19, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
  • That's not really what the question is about here. Particle (small object) would be clear and unambiguous too, but it's the primary topic, so it's located at Particle instead. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:11, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.