Talk:Empire of Kitara

This article is a collection of assertions

This article is a collection of assertions, none of which have foundation whatsoever.

The Bantu peoples of East Africa all have detailed oral histories of their nations going back several hundred years. These oral histories were written down in the 1890s. The oral histories all mention a people called the Bachwezi as having ruled the area long ago, and having "gone away". There is absolutely nothing else in the oral tradition about the Bachwezi. The statement about their having ruled a particular large area is pure speculation.

The claim that the Babito rulers who established the modern kingdoms were Luos from the Sudan is unsupported by any evidence. The traditional history states that the Babito rulers came from the North. The Babito rulers set up hierachial central governments with a cattle owning ruling class, features not present in any Luo society. In Ankole and Rwanda the members traditional ruling class have discernible physical features which suggest a Hamitic rather than Nilotic origin. (Physical anthropometric studies are detailed in "The Uganda Protectorate" by Johnston

The Bigo bya Mugenyi site has not been studied in detail; the claim that it was the capital of the empire is preposterous.

The lack of any detailed knowledge about the Bachwezi has puzzled scholars, considering the fact that oral histories were so detailed. One scholar, Dr M.B Nsimbi of Uganda, noted the existence of many names whose etymology is unknown. This is odd because most Luganda names have a known origin, such as a proverb. He speculated that they were remnants of a culture whose history was ruthlessly effaced, perhaps that of the Bachwezi.

The third reference cited by the article (Doyle) states that the claims about the Bachwezi are viewed with skepticism by historians.Kigongos (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. There is enough in the oral tales of these people to warrant it to be taken seriously. If tales of Vikings and Normans can be taken seriously, so should be tales of Babito. Ezeu (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

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this page is a mess

this is subpar and not wikipedia-standard writing or information whatsoever, can most of the recent edits be reverted? 73.217.107.48 (talk) 01:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@73.217.107.48 I definitely agree. KiwiNova (talk) 02:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

There's not really any version I can find going back several years that can be salvaged. Its a mess, in various different forms, for much of the page's history. I'd be more inclined to flag the page for deletion or basically start over, writing it only with reliable stories and emphasising that Kitara is a legendary state and not a fully documented historical one. Maswimelleu (talk) 19:43, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Type of kingdom

@Ahiise2 Hi, I was wondering when you have the time could you have a look at Comparison and get back to me with a classification for Kitara with a source? Genuinely no worries if you're too busy Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The classification can change over time Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal I think that modern studies seems to suggest an aristocratic kingdom, contrary to the united empire of oral tradition. Some sources which support this include the following:

The Kitara complex: the historical tradition of western Uganda to the 16th century by Carole Buchanan:

The Isaza tradition communicates a systemization of saza county units. Certain clans, such as the Bagabu, enjoyed hegemony over other groups for periods of time, but there is no clear evidence it was a centralized monarchy. The Isaza tradition testifies to the emergence of the Kitara state under Bagabu leadership which culminated a process of assimilation of ethnically and culturally diverse groups in the Batembuzi period, (by c. 11th century). It probably does not recount a biography or a "reign" of an historical personality, but a period when territorial chiefships and sazas developed, a time when the Bagabu clan was preeminent, the "first among near-equals."

(note that Isaza belongs to the Bagabu clan)

Rituals of Nyoro Kingship by John Beattie:

Banyoro believe that their kingdom is the direct successor to the ancient empire of Kitara, and that the Mukama is the lineal descendant of its rulers. The origins of this 'empire', which is believed to have extended over a large area including most of present-day Uganda, are shrouded in mystery. But it may be supposed that it was a loose and shifting association of states paying sporadic tribute to a central kingdom, rather than any kind of single, centralized polity.

The Antecedents of the Interlacustrine Kingdoms by John Sutton:

There is in fact a reasonable case for interpreting each of the big earthwork sites — Kibengo, Munsa and Bigo — as a capital for those who controlled the grasslands of those districts. In this way Kitara can perhaps be still imagined not as a single united kingdom but as a vaguer system of political organization and economic exploitation of this region some six or seven centuries ago.

Bunyoro-Kitara Revisited by Godfrey Uzoigwe:

What the Banyoro apparently lost in the battlefield and from the politics of shifting alliances and alignments that characterized the history of the region for some 600 years they tried to keep alive through their historical traditions. These traditions inform us in masterful and amazing detail – in spite of several lacunae – how their ancestors founded the first state system in the lake region and later converted it into a large, albeit loosely-organized ‘empire,’ that extended beyond the region. That ‘empire’ they called Kitara Kya Nyamenga, an ‘empire’ won by the sword by larger-than-life individuals.

Ahiise2 (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ahiise2 thank you, I'll make sure to put that in, you do great work Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ahiise2 Hi, you might want to redirect Bachwezi dynasty to here as its deleted page is the first one that comes up when you Google Bachwezi Empire. I’m not entirely sure how these things work so might be being dumb Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Ahiise2 (talk) 20:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ahiise2 and Empire of kitara with a lowercase k Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Ahiise2 (talk) 20:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Should this article mention the Urewe culture as a precursor? Idk how accurate that is. Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal If there were no other prominent cultures in Uganda between the end of the Urewe culture and the start of the Empire of Kitara, then yes. Ahiise2 (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

That was the only one from what I’ve seen (the territory maps onto Kitara quite well). Just edited the History of Uganda article, it’s incredible how badly African history is represented on this site Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Ahiise2 (talk) 16:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Luo migrations

Do the oral traditions not discuss the Luo migrations? [1] [2] [3] and [4]: 'Between the coast and the great lakes' Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Also Luo peoples#Uganda and Luo people#Origins Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal They do, but I forgot to mention them after the article was undeleted. I'll be working on that soon. Ahiise2 (talk) 15:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I’m currently trying to write the post-classical section on history of Africa and plan on referring a lot to oral traditions (but framing them), I’ve bought oral tradition as history by Jan Vansina, is there anything you’d recommend? I’m really impressed by this article, I wish there were more articles on a peoples’ or region’s oral traditions Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:16, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe as a section on a polity’s page Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The Ghana Empire is the one I’m going to have to do the most research on, the first written record was only in the 9th century Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it worth having a section about the climate some of these oral traditions are told in, as I understand it, frequency of telling and formality of occasion greatly impact the content and preservation Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, although I haven't found much information on things like that.

See also: Koogere oral traditions. Ahiise2 (talk) 06:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't really recommend much other than the references already in this article (especially Buchanan, 1974), but I'd try searching on Google Scholar or other search engines like it for sources on this topic. Ahiise2 (talk) 06:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

thank you Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Map

The map showing the territory of kitara is clearly not true. It is tribal nationalism. The northern Ugandan tribes like the Madi and lubgara do not have any oral histody of being ruled under a kitara empire and are decentralized tribes without kingship. Even Buganda does not claim any ties to Kitara in their king lists. this map should just be deleted. Historybuff623 (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the source used, however you don’t need kingship yourself to be ruled over or to accept suzerainty. Why does Buganda claiming or not claiming Bachwezi lineage affect the veracity of the map? My understanding is that Buganda was established after Kitara disintegrated Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

it is a fact that the madi and lugbara and acholi were never ruled by the kitara empire. great lakes Bantu peoples did not venture that north into uganda and south sudan. that is a central sudanic and nilotic area. Buganda was started by the ganda and their North nyzna speaking ancestors and they have very different culture and way of life compared to the savannah pastoralists of western Uganda. Buganda was not suitable for pastoralism so Kitara would not have been interested in that area. Kitara is not even a real empire but mostly just legend. Historybuff623 (talk) 02:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

quoting book: "It is unlikely that Buganda was fully integrated into the system that was probably not called Kitara. Its language is distinct from ‘Rutara’, and the directors of the Ntusi and Biggo systems would not have had much interest in a land that was not really suited to cattle-rearing."

source is from Wrigley, Christopher. Kingship and State: The Buganda Dynasty. United Kingdom, Cambridge University Press, 2002. pages 78 Historybuff623 (talk) 06:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Historybuff623: I can see how tribal nationalism influenced it. The map is based on the oral traditions of a county chief in colonial Bunyoro that the king at the time (Winyi IV) "tremendously helped" to write down. A more realistic map might be needed. Perhaps a map that compares the extent claimed by oral traditions to a realistic extent based on archaeology could be made, like this one from A Thousand Years of Bunyoro-Kitara Kingdom.

You can remove the map from the article if you see it as untrue or misleading, but I don't think the file itself should be deleted. Ahiise2 (talk) 20:16, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes that map is much better. Historybuff623 (talk) 13:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I find that map hard to interpret, maybe have a dark colour for the archaeological version, and a lighter colour for the version from oral traditions? Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: I agree. That map is the result of being restricted to using black and white. Ahiise2 (talk) 14:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

could the the image be edited to make it more readable? if so that would be nice. I dont know how to do that unfortunately. Also why is it "also known as the chwezi empire"? as if the chwezi started the state? The Tembuzi were the ones that established Kitara and the chwezi only ruled for a brief perioid. Historybuff623 (talk) 16:38, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

It's often referred to erroneously as the Chwezi Empire in academia Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell if Rwanda is slightly covered in that map. It seems strange to me that the Kingdom of Rwanda would only form when the Chwezi collapsed yet not be related to it Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The Rwanda-Rundi speakers had their own kingdoms. The Rwandan state is inspired by the hutu kingdon that preceded them. and whats the source that says rwnada was founded at that time? Historybuff623 (talk) 00:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Kingdom of Rwanda says 15th century Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The kingdom of Rwanda wikipedia page is very terrible. Dont take it seriously. Historybuff623 (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Do you fancy rewriting it/ correcting it? Africa is generally very poorly represented on wikipedia Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Ankole is one to take issue with, it was Nkore before the British combined it with the Mpororo splinter states to make Ankole Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

So the pre Rwanda clans were Singa, Zigaba and Gesera as the oldest, Banda, Cyaba, Ongera and Enengwe? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@Historybuff623 I'm not sure if we're allowed to edit the image and upload it here. Commons does not allow copyrighted maps to be uploaded, even if they're redrawn or traced. Ahiise2 (talk) 19:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you can redraw them and cite it no? Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal Doing that isn't listed as a option in the Commons' copyright rules, so I would say no based on the rules alone. Maps that are considered too simple and don't meet the threshold of originality can be uploaded, it seems. Ahiise2 (talk) 19:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I would say this is an extremely simple map that can be redrawn and coloured, however if you do get in any trouble, feel free to blame me. I think as long as you cite it in the image description and say it's a redrawing I don't you'll get in any trouble at all Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal Fair enough, I'll start redrawing it soon. Ahiise2 (talk) 19:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

States that proceeded and succeeded Kitara

Urewe culture was a culture of Proto Great lakes bantu speaking peoples that started in 500BC (over 3,000 years ago). Kitara has nothing to do with it and Rutara speaking peoples did not exist yet. and again Buganda and Busoga formed independantly of Kitara. i dont know why its always brought back after I deleted it. i know you guys want to put more information but false information is not good. Historybuff623 (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The new map will cover Buganda and Busoga with the version based on oral traditions, so I think it makes sense to link them as successors, readers can remain sceptical based on the archaeology version.

[5] [6] [7] link Urewe to Kitara, but it is by no means certain. Urewe covers the same territory of Kitara, so even if they are not the same, predecessor is still appropriate.

I appreciate you being critical though, it is needed Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Historybuff623 (talk) 07:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"A political structure of some sort, small in scale and mainly ritual in function, may be taken to have existed in northern Busiro, where the ancient shrines are clustered, at a time far beyond the reach of historical tradition...the ntuals of Ganda kingship are both too elaborate and too archaic in character to have been evolved within the past few centuries."(page 134 of this source https://www.jstor.org/stable/3171765) Historybuff623 (talk) 22:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

It is very likely that the the Buganda state is much more ancient than has previously been thought. Buganda began as a small principality in the north of Lake Victoria in what is now Busiro County. (A History of African Societies to 1870 by isichei, page 136) Historybuff623 (talk) 22:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"Buganda’s supposed derivation from Bunyoro is validated only by a myth which is not shared by Baganda, who prefer a different version, establishing Ganda origins as distinct and as of at least equal antiquity with Bunyoro’s. We shall see that there are indeed significant structural differences, between the two kingdoms. of greatest interest in the present context, then, is a comparison of the Nyoro state with Buganda, the only neighbouring kingdom (except Toro) with which it shared an extensive land frontier, and with which it has for centuries sustained continuing relations, though mostly hostile ones.' It is remarkable that the two kingdoms differed so much in both culture and social organization. Indeed, although in recent generations Buganda has been by far the most powerful of the four kingdoms, it has always been the ‘odd man out’. Both in language and in certain other aspects of its culture such as its clan and kinship systems, Bunyoro is a good deal closer to Ankole, even to the small kingdoms of north-western Tanzania, than it is to its closest neighbour."

(The Nyoro State by John Beattie in pages 54 and 246) Historybuff623 (talk) 22:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

That’s interesting, what do the Baganda oral traditions say about Kitara?

In the ‘Modern studies’ section of the article it says Kitara was likely to have been loosely organised, so it’s possible Buganda was just a vassal of Kitara. This was common in African empires, the Ghana Empire was made up of a core territory, directly administered provinces, and lots of vassals, some big Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)