Talk:Emmental cheese

Misplaced origin

The explanation of the name's origin is misplaced: the cheese is typical and representative for the Emme valley, not for the town of Emmen. The town belongs to Kanton Luzern, while the valley belongs to Kanton Bern. The town is situated at the Kleine Emme (Little Emme), which belongs to another drainage subsystem than the namesake river of the Emmental. Ijuedt (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide?

Could a pronunciation guide be added to this? --Navstar 20:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

History?

[1]: "...often put foward as the original Swiss Cheese... but Gruyère was being made and traded around 1249 ... Emmental was developed around 1292, nearly fifty years later.." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Cheese was made for centuries and the secrets of its making date back to prehistoric times. The difference is when somebody writes it down. So most of those cheeses were made long before any written sources.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 15:05, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Source inconsistency regarding hole ("eye") forming bacterium

In The Cheesemaker's Apprentice, an apparently American-centric but broadly sourced book, there is an inconsistency regarding the hole or eye-forming bacterium used in Emantaler. The relevant quote: "Propionibacterium shermanii: Forms the eyes in mountain-style cheeses such as Emmentaler." This is also backed up by the PhD-authored source, specific to Swiss Cheese, on the Propionibacterium page. prat (talk) 01:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Title change?

Currently the article is titled using the "Emmental" variation, but seems to use "Emmentaler" throughout the text. For the sake of consistency, either the text should be modified or the article should be renamed. Which title is appropriate per WP:COMMONNAME? Deli nk (talk) 18:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point. I only have read or heard the name Emmentaler used. I would support a title change unless someone can come up with evidence of more usage of "Emmental" in reliable sources. --В²C ☎ 01:28, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, have only ever heard it called "Emmental". It seems like Emmentaler is the German name and Emmental is the French name. Ngram gives a moderate preference to Emmental[2] so I'd suggest keeping it there. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 07:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

In Switzerland, there is only one designation: Emmentaler Käse. The name is after the river Emme, which forms the Emmental valley, which is the origin of the Emmentaler Käse. So Emmental means the valley and Emmentaler means somebody or something that originates in Emmental (genitive form). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giftzwerg 88 (talk • contribs) 14:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

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Requested move 8 July 2016

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move after extended discussion. bd2412 T 03:23, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• Emmental cheese → Emmental
• Emmental → Emmental valley

– I think the cheese is the primary topic for Emmental, even if it is named after the valley. Page views show almost ten times the traffic for the cheese compared with any other of the contenders for the topic: [3]. Also Emmental is the proper WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME for the subject, rather than "Emmental cheese".[4][5] I'm open to suggestions about where the valley should go. Emmental valley seems natural enough, but could also be Emmental Valley, Emmental (valley), Emmental, Bern, Emmental, Switzerland etc.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear @Amakuru: following the discussion below, there seems to be no consensus for your proposal but some advancement towards a solution with Emmental (cheese) + Emmental (valley) + dab page. Would you support this? — JFG ^talk 23:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@JFG: yes, that would certainly be a step in the right direction! Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 14:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Then I'd suggest you self-close this, open a new RM below with the alternate proposal and ping participants for support. — JFG ^talk 23:04, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Even though as a German-speaking Swiss I personally associate Emmental with the valley and Emmentaler with the cheese, I agree that in English the cheese is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and its WP:COMMONNAME is just Emmental. However, for the valley I suggest using Emmental (valley), because that makes it clear that "valley" is not part of the name. "Tal" already means valley, "Emmental" ist the valley of Emme (river), therefore "Emmental valley" sounds nonsensical. As opposed to, e.g., Limmat Valley, where Limmat is indeed the name of the river. I also suggest creating Emmental (disambiguation) to link to the other articles in (see [6]) --Novarupta (talk) 22:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. The cheese is "Emmentaler" and the valley is "Emmental," according to Merriam-Webster. Surely the common name in English is "Swiss cheese." Gulangyu (talk) 11:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't agree that Swiss cheese is the common name for Emmentaler, they are different things. The article Swiss cheese makes a distinction: "Swiss cheese is a generic name in North America for several related varieties of cheese, mainly of North American manufacture, which resemble Emmental cheese, a yellow, medium-hard cheese that originated in the area around Emmental, in Switzerland." --Novarupta (talk) 07:57, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Here is Britannica: "Emmentaler, also spelled Emmenthaler, also called Swiss Cheese..."[7] Gulangyu (talk) 01:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
• Mild oppose. A more WP:NATURAL resolution would be to use Emmentaler for the cheese and Emmental for the valley. Now, this seems to be a bit of WP:ENGVAR situation, and that naming of the cheese differs across the English-speaking area. Some more research about readers' expectation and input from native speakers would be beneficial. No such user (talk) 15:56, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose – The native Swiss-German name is definitely Emmentaler (literally: from the Emme valley) vs Emmental which is unambiguously the valley; only French language commonly uses "emmental" for the cheese. I'm not sure about English, however several dictionaries name the cheese Emmentaler. I would support a move to Emmentaler as the unambiguous, concise title. Failing that, I would alternately support Novarupta's solution with Emmental (cheese) and Emmental (valley) + a dab page at Emmental. — JFG ^talk 08:31, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

  The native Swiss-German name is definitely Emmentaler, is entirely irrelevant. We are not a Swiss-German encyclopedia. And no, it is not only French that uses "emmental". That is the more common English name as you can see in this ngram: [8] Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 14:36, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

@Amakuru: I agree that the original German name should not carry much weight here, I was just answering No such user's request for input from native speakers. I still disagree with this particular move request and I would prefer to see a dab page for the base name "Emmental", pointing to Emmental (cheese) and Emmental (valley). This solution would also improve the clarity of autocomplete results displayed in the search box. — JFG ^talk 01:44, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear – I meant "native speakers of different varieties of English" (I'm not one). I understand that it is called both "Emmental" and "Emmentaler" in English, in different areas or contexts (as the dictionary links and Google book search), and I'm trying to assess relative frequencies of both, and whether WP:NATURAL title "Emmentaler" would be widely understood; it is recorded by at least 4 online dictionaries [9][10][11][12].
While I'm here, I must day that the dab page at Emmental would be by far the worst solution, as none of the readers would get the article they want, and would go against recommendations at WP:TWODABS to pick one as the primary topic and use hatnotes to point to the other. I would argue that the current setup satisfies the "not broken" and WP:ASTONISH criteria, and is probably not worth the editorial effort to "fix" the situation. After all, the exact collocations "Emmental cheese" and "Emmentaler cheese" are quite natural and unambiguous references, and are used in thousands of books. No such user (talk) 07:45, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:TWODABS does not require us to pick a primary topic, it only applies where we've already established there is one. So if there's no primary topic, then we have a dab page, rather than arbitrarily picking one of the two options, like at John Quested. Although in this case the cheese seems a lot more notable than the valley. THanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - the cheese is not called "Emmentaler", it is called "Emmental", as per my links above.[13] etc. Furthermore, it is a clear primary topic over the valley. The only reason I can see to oppose this is "long term significance" of the valley, because the cheese is named after the valley, but with its international success, I woudl think the cheese is a good long term significance contender too. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 14:34, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

A recipe may not be the best source, but Oxford Dictionaries says the same thing. Gulangyu (talk) 21:30, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support move to Emmental (cheese) and Emmental (valley) with a dab 2601:541:4305:C70:7418:8611:1E75:3AAD (talk) 20:03, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 10 August 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for move(s) regarding the cheese in discussion. The valley article depends on actions for the cheese, no moves performed. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 03:29, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

---

• Emmental cheese → Emmental (cheese)
• Emmental → Emmental (valley)

– No primary topic for the "Emmental" term. Potential emerging consensus from previous move request. We would have a short dab page at "Emmental" and hatnotes on each article. — JFG ^talk 15:47, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Participants in the above discussion @Amakuru, Novarupta, No such user, Gulangyu, 2601:541:4305:C70:7418:8611:1E75:3AAD, and BD2412: please comment here if you still care. — JFG ^talk 15:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support, because I think the suggested solution is better than the status quo. However, I would prefer either just Emmental or Emmentaler for the cheese, with a hatnote pointing to Emmental (disambiguation). --Novarupta (talk) 19:25, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Support moving the cheese article to Emmentaler. An elegant solution. Unsure about the other issues here. Andrewa (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Like I said before, the dab page at Emmental would be by far the worst solution, as none of the readers would get the article they want. I'm much more comfortable with the previous proposal (that I only "mildly" opposed), accept that the primary topic for "Emmental" is cheese and work on from there. No such user (talk) 20:17, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Emmental cheese → Emmental (cheese) per WP:NATURAL. Emmental should be a dab per nom. ^Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv. 17:54, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support these moves 2601:541:4305:C70:D044:E5C3:3EE7:8268 (talk) 17:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose any move for the cheese - it's both natural and recognizable where it's at. Neutral on the other suggestions. Red Slash 18:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move. Emmental means "Emme valley"; Emmental (valley) would be redundant. Support moving the cheese to Emmentaler.  Sandstein  09:35, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The cheese is called emmental, not emmentaler

The cheese is called emmental in English (and French), not emmentaler (which is its native Swiss-German name). And the article name is emmental, not emmentaler. Googling on any WWW search engine is easy to confirm that the common name of this cheese in English is emmental, not emmentaler. Why the article uses the Swiss-German name emmentaler in the main text instead of using the English name which is also the title of the article? Viktoria Tatiana Bogdanova (talk) 03:52, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

This American has only ever come across this cheese as emmentaler, for whatever that's worth. --Khajidha (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Kim Jong-un

I have removed the addition about this sentence twice: Kim Jong-un of North Korea is said to enjoy emmental cheese. The first addition ([14]) was backed by a non-reliable source for the topic eater.com) that, in turn, cited a source that we consider generally unreliable (WP:RSP#International_Business_Timess) and was coatrack to spread rumors that have been unconfirmed for years. The second addition cited Newsweek ([15]): The U.K.'s Metro reported that Kim Jong Un had to retreat from public life after eating too much Emmental cheese, after a large shipment of it arrived from Switzerland. Newsweek clearly attributes it, and Metro is considered a generally unreliable source (WP:RSP#Metro). I fail to see how this trivia associated to unconfirmed rumors about living persons (WP:BLP) is relevant for the Emmental cheese article at all. --MarioGom (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@MarioGom: I am not really aware of how we weight of sources like this on BLP. Thanks for your help. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Bold, revert, discuss

@Oknazevad:, @Johnbod:. Might I be so bold as to suggest that if you guys continue with this edit war, you will both get sanctioned because you have not tried for consensus. Do you really want to choose this as a "hill to die on"?

Can we at least agree that

• (a) this has become a controversial article and that any further corrections or clarifications must be proposed here first and consensus reached
• (b) that the version as at 16:47 UTC+00, 29 October 2020‎ is a reasonable foundation for any such corrections or clarifications

and recognise that there is conflict of values between the European and US perspectives, which has also dogged the Budweiser article. Changes that favour one value-set over the other are doomed to failure.

I recognise that I have been wp:involved and am not a neutral observer, but I suggest we have reached the point where we need to step back and take a long breath. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

That's probably a good idea. The 16:47 UTC+00, 29 October 2020‎ version looks good to me. Apparently the term "Swiss cheese" may not be used in the UK (except where "Swiss" is just an adjective, or when used as a metaphor). The term is sometimes or often used as an alternative for Emmentaler, however, in the USA, Australia and India, and Swiss cheese, labeled as such, is produced in at least Switzerland, Ireland, Finland, Estonia, Australia and the USA. To say Swiss cheese is produced only outside Switzerland is incorrect. To say it is produced mostly outside Switzerland is probably technically correct, but that's probably also true of Gruyere, etc. Station1 (talk) 23:38, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

It was never said that no Swiss cheese was made in Switzerland. I'm really confused by "To say it is produced mostly outside Switzerland is probably technically correct, but that's probably also true of Gruyere, etc." What meaning can be assigned to these words? It is the New York deli faction that insists "Swiss cheese" only has the American meaning. I'm not sure much "Gruyere" is produced outside France, although apparently Comté cheese, a very traditional French Alpine cheese, is also known (presumably in France) as "Gruyère de Comté". I've never seen that myself. "Apparently the term "Swiss cheese" may not be used in the UK (except where "Swiss" is just an adjective, or when used as a metaphor)" is also a jumbled mixture of mistakes and half-truths. You can't sell cheese in the UK as "Swiss" unless it is made in Switzerland, or at least nobody does; that much is true. Johnbod (talk) 01:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

It was said that no Swiss cheese is made in Switzerland with this edit and again with this edit, as well as on the dab page, which was factually incorrect. You then changed it to "mostly" made outside Switzerland, which is not as bad. Station1 (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

"In some parts of the world, the names "Emmentaler" and "Swiss cheese" are used interchangeably for Emmental-style cheese made outside Switzerland" is very far from saying "no Swiss cheese is made in Switzerland", especially when Swiss cheese (North America) is being talked about. Johnbod (talk) 20:45, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

No, it's the same. "made outside Switzerland" is a restrictive clause implying that "Emmentaler" and "Swiss cheese" are not used interchangeably for Emmental-style cheese made inside Switzerland. It changes the meaning of the sentence from true to false. Station1 (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

That may be the case in the UK, but is not the case in other English-speaking countries (more than just the US, so calling it the "American meaning" is itself incorrect). I'm going to say it again, the term "Swiss cheese", in the eyes of many (if not the majority) of English speakers from all over, is a generic name for Emmental cheese specifically, not all cheese styles originating in Switzerland. And "Emmental cheese" is not uniquely used for cheese made in Switzerland using only raw milk and traditional methods. Even Emmental (or "Swiss cheese", depending on local convention) made in Switzerland can be made from pasteurized part-skim milk; I just bought some two days ago. "Emmentaler AOC", always including the "AOC", is the brand used for cheeses produced by the members of a single trade consortium specifically because "Emmental" is a generic term, and even appears in the names of other protected versions.

The distinction you apparently think about the names indicating place of origin or the exclusive use of traditional methods doesn't exist. "Swiss cheese" is not the name of a distinct product originating in the US, and the use of the term as a synonymous name for Emmental cheese is not a purely North American usage, which is why I still say the disambiguator at the Swiss cheese (North America) article is a very poor one based on a factual error. And "Emmental cheese" does not indicate a specific version of the cheese, but is just as generic of a term in some English dialects as "cheddar", used for any cheese of the style regardless of where it's made.

So, with that all said, I frankly think this article and Swiss cheese (North America) should be merged, as they're just two generic names for the same style of cheese produced around the world, one referring to the country and one to the more specific region of that country where the style was created, and Wikipedia articles cover concepts, not words. oknazevad (talk) 03:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Station1 (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't, and we flogged a related horse to that to death a while back. Johnbod (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

It's not dead. It's resting. Station1 (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

If you want to merge Emmental cheese and Swiss cheese (North America), what about Jarlsberg cheese, Leerdammer and Maasdam cheese, which all have exactly the same relationship to Emmenthal as American Swiss cheese? No doubt there are others. Johnbod (talk) 02:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

They do not. That's the point. Jarlsberg is Jarlsberg; it's not Swiss cheese and is never called that anywhere to the best of my knowledge. Leerdammer and Maasdam probably could be merged with each other, but they are also not Swiss cheese. They cannot legally be marketed as Swiss cheese in the USA because their moisture content is too high and they are not produced according to the Swiss (Emmentaler) process. Only "Emmentaler" is "Swiss cheese". They are synonymous. Not so with any other cheese. Station1 (talk) 03:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Bringing us back to Swiss cheese (North America) being its own thing, with its own article. Johnbod (talk) 04:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Except that's not at all what Station1 said, and in fact is the exact opposite of what he said. Did you actually read his response beyond the first line? I mean, he literally just said they are the same thing! oknazevad (talk) 09:34, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm confused - I'm the one saying they are the same thing (Emmental-style cheeses) & he's saying they are completely different, referring once again to entirely and exclusively American standards. Johnbod (talk) 15:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Then I must truly question your reading comprehension abilities. He really did just say that "Emmentaler" and "Swiss cheese" are synonyms. Maybe you're confused because he's using the phrase "Swiss cheese" in the sense of the style, not the country. oknazevad (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Evidence, schmevidence

Progress might be made on some of the disagreement above given some citations.

1. It is illegal under the UK's Trade Descriptions Act and other national equivalents to describe something as being other than it is, so it is illegal to describe something as Swiss if it is not made in Switzerland. For example see "Greek-style" yoghurt that is described thus because it is made in England:
2. It is illegal in the EU and EFTA (at least) to use a protected origin name for a product not from that origin, for example Feta cheese. The designation can be fairly broad (like Feta and Champagne) or precisely limited if a suffix like DOC,DOP, AC, AOC etc applies.
3. AFIK, many names like Emmental and Cheddar are allowed to be used generically anywhere (subject to 1 and 2 above). I think we can take that one as given.
4. I think we can take as given that North America uses the term "Swiss cheese" in a way that would be illegal in the UK (and rest of Europe).
5. We need citations for custom and practice in Australia, New Zealand and maybe South Africa. NB that these countries (esp NZ) export to the US so citation would have to be clearly something aimed at the domestic market.
6. I suggest that we can ignore marginal markets like India, China, Japan because whatever European-style cheese is sold there is very much luxury category or aimed at European or North American immigrants.

Is that reasonable to everyone? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. But we have Swiss cheese (North America) to cover the generics there, so don't need too much here. That should be linked much higher up. Johnbod (talk) 15:44, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I was partly trying to address oknazevad's challenge to the existence of that disambiguation. From this side of the pond, a "Swiss cheese" has to be Swiss, like a "Swiss watch" is not "Swiss" if it is made in Thailand. So while we would consider it self-evident to qualify, they do not. Fair enough, that discussion belongs on a different talk page. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

And again Johnbod insists that "Swiss cheese" applies only to generics (it doesn't) or that "Emmental" doesn't apply to generics (it does). "Emmental" as a generic name and "Emmentaler AOC" (which you were correct to revert me on, JMF, I misread the source; my apologies) are not the same name. As JMF noted in his point No.2, the suffix is necessary to turn it from the generic name into a protected origin name, so acting as though this is the article for "genuine" Emmental and the other is the one for generics is based on the paradigm that "Emmental" and "Swiss cheese" are not both generic terms for the same widely made style is incorrect and misleading. To put it bluntly: "Emmental" is a generic name, and it's use for the style has absolutely zero indication of it being actually made in Switzerland or having a protected status. As such, this article is already the correct article for generics, because generics are already the subject of this article. oknazevad (talk) 01:14, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

To address those specific points:

1. I don't think there's any dispute about what terminology is used in the UK.

2. I'm not sure I understand that point, but Swiss cheese, labeled as Swiss cheese, is made in Ireland, Finland and Estonia. It's possible it's made or labeled only for export.

3. Certainly true in many places if not everywhere.

4. Yes but not only North America. And see #2 just above.

5. Citations for Australia are already in the Swiss cheese article. I don't believe I came across any specific to New Zealand or South Africa.

6. Citation for India is already in the Swiss cheese article. Japan and China are not English-speaking, so agree are not relevant. Station1 (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

1. This terminology and legislation is used all over Europe, varying only by national language and legal conventions.

2. Cheeses labelled "Swiss cheese" are certainly made in these countries, but they are all for export. It would be illegal (fraudulent) to label them as such anywhere in the EU, EFTA or associated countries. Who knows what will happen in the UK from January??? (as in many ways, chaos reigns: the government has just announced its intention to destroy cycle manufacturing in the UK by ending the 48% anti-dumping duty on subsidised Chinese imports.)

2a. It is possible that additional or replacement labels have been added by the importers. (I have seen many cases of the opposite: supplementary labels for Europe, giving the list of colouring and flavouring additives as required for consumer protection).

3. nfc

4. No, again see 2 above.

4a. But they can (and do) use the words "Emmental" and "Cheddar" for cheeses made neither in Emmental, Switzerland nor Cheddar, England – because these names have become generic and legal for anyone to use unless suffixed as above.

5. Australia citations will need more analysis than I have time for, so I will AGF on that one.

6. India is not an English-speaking country. For most educated people, English is [with varying degrees of fluency] a second language lingua franca, a small minority use it as a first language. The per-capita amount of imported emmental-style cheese must be very small per EFL speaker and homeopathic for the total population.

--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

2a and 4a added immediately above. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:25, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

References