Talk:Elizabeth Brontë

My reply to User:DoubleGrazing

Dear DoubleGrazing,

You recently declined my article Draft:Elizabeth Brontë, and I would like to say that more sources have been added including a school report about her which is currently preserved in the British Library. I appreciate all your concerns, however you say that I should “add the salient points of this draft to the existing Brontë family article instead”, but the level of detail between the main article of a Brontë sister and their entry on this page (Brontë family) is so different that many facts concerning Elizabeth would have to be edited out to suit other content: these are facts which I believe are worthy of a separate page. I one-hundred per-cent agree with you that she is less notable than her siblings, however:

1. The school in which she so suffered owing to her and her sisters’ treatment led to her sister Charlotte Brontë immortalising it in Jane Eyre.
2. She is notable as a sort of antithesis to her more literary siblings and her character provides an insight into the early life of the Brontës.
3. Her school report has been deemed so important that it is currently conserved in the British Library.

I don’t think the life of Elizabeth Brontë should be considered solely because of her more famous siblings and replaced with a a redirect to another page because her story has much to offer and as you have mentioned I have added many more sources.

Finally, even though Elizabeth died at such a young age, she is very similar in notability to her sister Maria, who has her own page despite also dying very young.

I’m not asking you to accept the draft but merely consider my thoughts – is there any advice you feel I should be aware of?

Best wishes, Scientelensia (talk) 18:38, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Scientelensia; that is a perfectly reasonable and well-articulated case you make. The acid test for accepting drafts is "would this have better than 50:50 chance of surviving a deletion discussion based on notability", and I think as this stands, it probably would. I will therefore go ahead and accept this, but I won't autopatrol it so that New Page Patrol can form a view; that way we will have the benefit of at least one more reviewer's opinion. Hope that's okay. Best, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much 😃😁 Scientelensia (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

No worries. In any case, it was actually Ritchie333 who accepted it (thanks!) in the end. :) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

As DoubleGrazing said, the litmus test is "would it have better than 50:50 chance at AfD?" As there is about 4K of reliably sourced prose in the article, I think those odds are met. I do have concern that some editors may think someone who only lived to 10 can't be particularly notable, but the worst case scenario is it goes back to a redirect again. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

😄 thanks again! Scientelensia (talk) 16:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

"1. The school in which she so suffered owing to her and her sisters’ treatment led to her sister Charlotte Brontë immortalising it in Jane Eyre" – surely if anything is made notable in such a way (and I disagree that it would be), it would be the school, not Elizabeth.

"2. She is notable as a sort of antithesis to her more literary siblings and her character provides an insight into the early life of the Brontës" – WP:NOTINHERITED, WP:BIOFAMILY

"3. Her school report has been deemed so important that it is currently conserved in the British Library" – surely that is only so because it is a Brontë souvenir. Doubtless, if one of Sara Fricker's laundry lists had survived, it would be preserved as a souvenir of the Wordsworth/Coleridge circle, but Sara has no English WP article.

Just some of my thoughts.. Harfarhs (talk) 23:06, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

In some ways I agree with you, but we cannot get around the fact that Maria has her own page with about the same amount of relevancy. Scientelensia (talk) 00:07, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

That has no relevance to the appropriateness or otherwise of a page for Elizabeth. Perhaps two deletions would be best, it depends on assessments of both articles. Harfarhs (talk) 00:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

It actually does. Would say though that this article is relevant as Elizabeth should be considered as with the rest of her family. If notability is “NOTINHERITED”, then why are there existing pages on Maria Branwell, Maria Brontë, Elizabeth Branwell and Patrick Brontë? Simple. It is because these pages help those who are interested gain a full and complete information about the literary Brontë family, a family which is very significant (and one which plays a large role in culture in Yorkshire) and one which has been studied by scholars and researched by many since the Brontës died. There was a gap in information about Elizabeth which seemed rather unfair considering the vast amounts of beneficial knowledge available for her family members, thus I created this page. I must insist you do not try and delete this page as it would serve no useful or valid purpose.

P.S. If you think that people don’t really care about Elizabeth Brontë, merely check this websites out: https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wiki.x.io&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Elizabeth_Brontë (these views are quite high as opposed to such an article as this https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wiki.x.io&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Berlin_Görlitzer_Bahnhof, although I am not saying to delete the second page!)

P.P.S. This isn’t my website, but I found it very interesting: http://www.annebronte.org/2017/04/30/elizabeth-bronte-more-than-a-footnote/ Scientelensia (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

"If notability is “NOTINHERITED”, then why are there existing pages on Maria Branwell, Maria Brontë, Elizabeth Branwell and Patrick Brontë? Simple. It is because these pages help those who are interested gain a full and complete information about the literary Brontë family" - OK then, six deletions. The only people mentioned by name in the lead of Brontë family, for very good reason, are the sisters and Bramwell.

"I must insist you do not try and delete this page" - I respectfully suggest that you never attempt to forbid me, or any editor, to do anything within the rules of the English Wikipedia. Harfarhs (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry if my tone came across to you as inflammatory (I did not think I was forbidding you), but I would urge you to consider my suggestions and not delete information which is useful and which people are clearly interested in. Scientelensia (talk) 20:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)