Talk:Drama uprising

Title

Obviously there is a problem with the current title since the "uprising" covers only 2 lines of text. Even the section that is supposed to be focused on the uprising describes the events that followed after this event. I assume a new title is warranted in this case.Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

The article can be expanded with text from the Greek Wikipedia. Pavlos1988 (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Greek versions of the villages and names

Hi, would anyone please be kind enough to make correct changes about the Greek versions of people names, villages, towns, mountains in my last edit, cause I'm not sure whether they are written correctly. Alexikoua, are you willing to correct the Greek names in the editorial? Thank you upfront.--Forbidden History (talk) 12:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I want to thank Pavlos1988, for making correction of the Greek versions of the names and toponyms. Once again I appologize that I couldn't write them properly in the first place.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Sources

Jingiby that is the testimonial given by an fighter that took part in the uprising. To them it was of most important thing that the communist party of Greece accepted them as who they are. As this is a important part of struggle of the Macedonian people to get their human rights. Feel free to delete that sentence if you think it's not necessary, but to those fighters and people it was of crucial importance to take part in the uprising. As for neutrality of the page, there are enough sources, I just elaborated what was missing. Feel free to make your edits to NPOV if you think that is not NPOV--Forbidden History (talk) 12:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The serious expansion of the article, based entirely on propaganda sources from the Stalinist period and in the later stages of the development of Communist Yugoslavia, did not meet the criteria of Wikipedia, and more precisely the rules for identifying reliable sources in the field of historiography. The insertion of non-encyclopedic statements such as "Macedonian by birth" concerning people born in a period when Macedonian identity was marginal spoils the encyclopedic image of the article. Jingiby (talk) 13:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

On 30 June 1941 a group of 27 leading Greek communist prisoners were released from the Acronauplia prison at the request of the Bulgarian embassy in Athens with the intercession of Bulgarian Club in Thessaloniki, which had made representations to the German occupation authorities. The members of the group belonged to the Slavic Macedonian community of northern Greece. They all declared Bulgarian ethnicity before the authorities. How this gay above was Macedonian by birth? Jingiby (talk) 13:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Macedonian politburo of the Communist Party of Greece is a nonsense. The Slavomacedonian National Liberation Front (СНОФ) was the first paramilitary organization established by Macedonian members of the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) in 1943. Before the creation of SNOF, there was not political or military organisation in of the Slavic Macedonians in Greece. Andreas Tsipas who was a Slav Macedonian and leader of the Greek Communists in 1941 declared himself as Bulgarian at that time. In January 1942, he sought refuge in Sofia, where he remained for a year and in fact he was then an agent of the Bulgarian secret service.Jingiby (talk)

Per Christopher Montague who was an expert on Greek affairs after he first got involved with the resistance forces in Greece against the Germans during World War II, and then having served in the British Embassy: "Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia, perhaps a million and a half in all – had a Bulgarian national consciousness at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, VMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the WWII. Tito was determined that this should not happen. The first Congress of AVNOJ in November 1942 had parented equal rights to all the 'peoples of Yugoslavia', and specified the Macedonians among them." For more see: The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1-85065-492-1, p. 67. Jingiby (talk) 17:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, Jingiby let's see this "unreliable source" vs. your reliable sources. I agreed that if "Macedonian by birth" needs to be deleted or modified (I just quoted the author). One general note. The fond of literature about this uprising beeing the earliest form of resistance in Greece, is small. Therefore any source should be treated with respect, especially if the author was involved in the organization and was a fighter himself.

1. The author itself was part of the movement in 1941 and the person he interviewed. Most important thing is that, his cites are taken directly from the official "Black Book about the uprising" of the Greek Government printed in Athens (first ever governmental printing about this event). Hristo Andonovski and his books are cited in Георги Даскалов, Драмското въстание 1941, as well.

2. According to your sources you said "Macedonian politburo of the Communist Party of Greece" didn't existed and you deleted the part. You are totally wrong cause you are mixing СНОФ with the Macedonian office of CPG, you can read here, here, here and here - so, your sources seems unreliable about this matter.

3. According to your sources there haven't been slavomacedonian consciousness before 1941 (therefore you discredited my source, about that guy that called himself Macedonian in 1941). Proof of much earlier existence of Slavomacedonian minority has been noted in the League of Nations (modern day United Nations), which resulted in printing the Abecedar in 1925, with Latin letters in Macedonian language and you can read more about the slavmacedonian consciousness before 1941 on this BBC Report as well or the official KKE stand from 1924, for Slavomacedonians and United and Independent Macedonia or this newspaper from December, 1932

4. You discredited my source and labeled unreliable, cause I cited him about Boris III being to Drama and Dedeagach (your reason for deletion was that Boris never was there). Isn't this Tsar Boris III in Dedeagach? and here you can read more about it. It seems to me that your sources are becoming less valid, cause everything you said isn't true.

5. Then you discredited my source about the hour of the uprising. My source is supported by more eyewitnesses and their statements here and here. Again your sources seems lack of information.

6. About the massacre near the monastery of Eikosifonisis on Pangaios Mountain it his direct quote of the Governmental "Black Book..." on page 25, only unsupported info would be that most of the victims were women and children. The massacre happened according to the Greek authorities, as well.

To sum up-my source is more than relevant and above notes are clearly showing that. And it is not a source from 1950/60 as you are presenting above, but from 1968 or the '70es, which is more close to the 80es then to the '50es. So, better check your own sources that are missing all of the detailed info on the Drama Uprising. Therefore please start recovering the non supported edits that you've made, since they are based on your POV not on reliable sources--Forbidden History (talk) 15:56, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Obviously you don't even know what a reliable source is. The memories of the participants are not like that at all. Clippings from the press, too. Please provide academic publications in English from the last 20 years, published by European, or American, University, preferably by a neutral author. Thanks in advance. Jingiby (talk) 16:04, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Some examples:

>James Horncastle, The Macedonian Slavs in the Greek Civil War, 1944–1949, Rowman & Littlefield, 2019, ISBN 1498585051;

>Iōannēs S. Koliopulos, Giannēs Koliopoulos, Plundered Loyalties: Axis Occupation and Civil Strife in Greek West Macedonia, 1941-1949, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999, ISBN 185065381X;

>Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566;

>Victor Roudometof, Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0275976483;

>Hugh Poulton, Who are the Macedonians? C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, etc. Jingiby (talk) 16:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

An objective, detailed and sharply critical to Bulgarian military activity information in Bulgarian can be found here:

> Либерален преглед, Изгледи - България, Потушаването на въстанието в Драма, 1941 г. Автор(и): Георги Даскалов, 19 Март 2015.

> Marginalia. И погромът в Драма е сред табутата на прехода, Юлиана Методиева, 08.01.2018. Jingiby (talk) 16:35, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, I have realized too, you don't use encyclopedic style. Please, check Wikipedia:Summary style. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Jingiby, Are you aware what is State Institute for National History? The second most relevant institute about history in one country. So, claiming that a publication approved by the editorial board composed of biggest history experts and academics in one country as unreliable source, tells enough about your attitude towards academic sources. Thanks for sharing the links above. If you find any more detailed work about the Drama uprising from the authors from New Zealand or America, feel free to share it I would gladly consult that literature as well. Or if you have it feel free to tweak the article about Drama Uprising.Thanks--Forbidden History (talk) 09:14, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, probably you are kidding. Per Michael R. Palairet in the three-way dispute about Macedonia, the Bulgarian historical view is much closer to the objective reality than either the Greek or Macedonian, but the Macedonian historiographic version violates even common sense and the historical record much more than either the Greek or Bulgarian ones. For more see: Michael Palairet, Macedonia: A Voyage through History (Vol. 1, From Ancient Times to the Ottoman Invasions), Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2016, ISBN 1443888435, p. 16. I personally am very suspicious, especially to outdated Yugoslav communist propaganda from Skopje. Jingiby (talk) 09:52, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Jingiby, there is only few World accredited associations to talk about national minority rights. Their reports are clear (those are institutions not one author opinion). They are taking every facts, oppinion and on site work. Their conclusion is cited in the article.--Forbidden History (talk) 10:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Stop this game. Jingiby (talk) 10:53, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

What are you talking about Jingiby? First you tried to discredit the source (therefore I omitted his one book that was not released by the Academy). Sorry, but you cannot discredit STate Professor and Academic work, just because you don't like it. There are only 2-3 academic books written about the Drama Uprising strictly, in the world and this is one of them. We are not discussing the life of Jesus Christ for you to declare what is relevant and what isn't. You asked for academic sources and they were provided. What was sourced from his 2nd book can be deleted. You even deleted Human Rights Watch Reports? Stop vandalizing the article.--Forbidden History (talk) 11:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Jingiby, I don't see any relevant feedback from your side about the use of Academic source printed in 1968.Read about the use of older books on Wikipedia Age Matters, this event (Drama Uprising) belongs to specific group of events that is not widely covered (only 3-4 academic books and this is one of those). To keep the NPOV, I deleted and modified some of the texts and deleted the non-academic released book. Should I sent you links here of you quoting sources from 1968? Is that's the way we should solve this? As I said, feel free to NPOV my part of the text, but refrain to discredit the totally valid Academic source.Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 18:14, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, check: What is "recent" scholarship in history? on Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history). Scholarship before 1990 will not include post-modern or narrativist methodologies. That means older sources are not preferable. Jingiby (talk) 04:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

We should be careful when using sources that suffer from serious wp:POV. Fortunately there is plenty of wp:RS bibliography to use.Alexikoua (talk) 17:36, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua, I'm aware that you got carried away by the approach of Jingiby, but one of the sources that are of the same author is actually an Academic supported work, released by the State Institute for National History, so be careful when proclaiming such sources as irrelevant. Wikipedia is clear on that matter read here--Forbidden History (talk) 09:14, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Македонците под Грција во борбата против фашизмот: (1940-1944)

This book is state-sponsored history from the communist period, and while it can be used for factual matters about which there is little dispute (movement of units, details of battles etc within reason), it should not be used as a principal source for political issues or anything controversial. There has been far more recent academic (non-state-controlled) historical work that covers these events. Such sources should be preferred for anything controversial such as national consciousness etc. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:14, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, what do you think about quite a few texts that were added as a result of this source that are now left in the article. Jingiby (talk) 09:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

I think any potentially controversial material, particularly anything relating to national consciousness and politics, that is sourced from this text should be removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:41, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

This is logical conclusion, I agree. Jingiby (talk) 11:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Macedonian minority in Greece

Stop vandalizing the article and misrepresenting the Macedonian minority as being Bulgarian one. I presented 4 valid sources (Human rights watch, Helisnkee Comitee and book of Ireneusz Adam. You wrote your part I clarified the part. Didn't you say you are up for NPOV articles?--Forbidden History (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Biased and/or unreliable sources again

Again, source of dubious reliability was presented. That Андоновски, Христо (1995). Јужна Македонија од античките до денешните Македонци. Скопје: Македонска книга is a book from North Macedonia, but its author was not professional historian and the publishing house is not academic one. Jingiby (talk) 17:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The work of the author was released by a historian institution, but since it was too old for you, I found a newer book, that contains his work on Drama Uprising, previously released under Academic institution.--Forbidden History (talk) 09:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

The Macedonian national question in Greece in the documents of the Communist Party of Greece 1918-1940 with publisher Lulu.com is in fact self-published book, not academic one and on the pointed page 121, the verification failed. Its author Ireneusz Adam Ślupkov marked himself with the sign of the Macedonian nationalists - the Vergina Sun. Please, stop this nonsense. Jingiby (talk) 17:26, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

E LA LIBERTA.GR is a Greek left-wing site that can be considered neither a neutral politically nor a reliable source. Jingiby (talk) 17:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

greeksurnames.blogspot.com is cited as WP:RS. That is unbelievable. Jingiby (talk) 19:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I have removed the clearly non-RS blog sources. I am not convinced that a book by Hristo Andonovski, a now-deceased journalist with several books to his name going back to the 1950s, and published by Makedonska kniga, isn't RS. On what basis are you saying it isn't?

The BlogSpot, quotes a book. If you read the article you will find the book at the end.as for Hristo he has exactly 39 book released by Institute for National History (Academic supported works). But, you need to search first before vandalize the article or discredit the source. Keep your POV for yourself. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 09:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Then get the book and use the source directly. Do not re-add the blog as a source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Λαμπάτος 2018

• What is this? There is no full citation or link to the book for verification. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I've removed this and the material cited to it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:11, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Χατζηαναστασίου, «Η βουλγαρική κατοχή (…)»

• What is this? There is no full citation or link to the book for verification. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I've removed this and the material cited to it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:11, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Χατζής 1983

• What is this? There is no full citation or link to the book for verification. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, I think you should search who put those references and address your question to him.--Forbidden History (talk) 09:25, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm posting it here so everyone involved can look at it and express an opinion. None of these questions are directed specifically at you, are they? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 OK I tried to help, do what you think is best.--Forbidden History (talk) 09:55, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I've removed this and the material cited to it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:11, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Other sources

Forbidden History, the source "Danforth, Loring M. (June 1995). "The Macedonian Minority of Northern Greece". Cultural Survival." does not support the section that you are using it to support. It says that the Macedonians were involved in the Greek Civil war which took place after the Drama Uprising from 1946 onwards. Also can you please add the quotations to the sources that you add as you have now on multiple cases added sources that have nothing to do with the subject. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 00:31, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, we have problem here as you are adding citations that do not actually support the content.

For example this citation "M. Danforth, Loring (1995). The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World. USA: Princeton University Press. p. 73. ISBN 0-691-04357-4." There is no information about this subject on the page that you have cited.

With this source : "Helenē Giannakakē, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis, (1997). Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912. Berg Publishers. p. 52. ISBN 9781859731338." I am not able to actually check what it says but I have my doubts that it is legit due to the other sources not being applicable, so please Forbidden History provide the quote when you are free.

Again with this citation "Agnew, John (2009). Globalization and Sovereignty. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. p. 74. ISBN 9780742566750." There is no information related to the Drama Uprising, in fact in the whole book the word 'Drama Uprising' is not used once and neither is the abbreviation 'KKE'or 'Communist Party of Greece'.

I plan to remove the 3 of the 4 sources in the near future while giving you a bit of time to provide the quote (which you should have access to) for page 52 of Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 00:45, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

StoyanStoyanov80 you better read the sources I'm providing next time, OK? Here is Danforth quote: "Under the Metaxas dictatorship of 1936-40 repression of the Slavic speakers, who by this time had increasingly begun to identify themselves as Macedonians, was particularly severe: people who spoke Macedonian were beaten, fined, and imprisoned." The uprising started in 1941-and Danforth it's quoted on the part of the sentence that Macedonian minority existed. Same goes for Human Rights Watch. Human Rights Organization/Helsinki Committee- They are the largest and most relevant organization when it comes to minority reports and human rights issues. --Forbidden History (talk) 09:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

StoyanStoyanov80 And again you are lying. Stop vandalizing this article! Quote from this book: "Resistance to the German occupation was organized by the Greek Communist Party, which hoped to win the support of the Slavic speaking inhabitants of the area by promising them an equal rights in a future "people's democracy". He is talking about OCCUPATION period-stop this non-sense. This is not a forum to explain to you every sentence, read the books and stop vandalizing the article!--Forbidden History (talk) 09:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Page 52 quote:"The first to heed the call were, not expectedly, the Komitadjis, who were recruited for the Partisans by Slav Macedonian communist cadres serving with the Greek communist-sponsored resistance organization EAM." and page 68: "Yes it remains true that the conscious propagation of the view that to be a Slav-Macedonian meant that one was a communist, a myth which drew heavily on the KKE's 1924 slogan." again talking about continuation of the views of KKE from 1924 till officially formed EAM forces. But the, truth is that the quote is correct. KKE was leading the uprising and Macedonian Slavs joined KKE.You didn't see the sentence written by you or Jingiby about the release of the prisoners on 30 June 1941? (The movement was alive and ongoing) years before. So, either educate yourself about hte events rather then vandalizing here. --Forbidden History (talk) 09:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

On page 74-quote:"This ethnicization of political ideology fits into a pattern of Greek nationalist thought that long predates the Civil War".It predates the Civil War!--Forbidden History (talk) 09:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

StoyanStoyanov80 and I plan to report your vandalism to the Admins. Stop this game!--Forbidden History (talk) 09:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I removed the sentence fragment "which started developing from the Third Congress of KKE (held in 1924) onward". It is not supported by the source, which doesn't mention the communist congress in 1924 or that year as a genesis point for recognition of a distinct Macedonian Slav minority. Material and citation to Danforth The Macedonian Minority of Northern Greece removed. And BTW, Forbidden History, I am an admin, and will be checking as many of the sources as I can, and if they do not support what it being cited to them, I will be removing the material and the citations. That includes monitoring what StoyanStoyanov80 removes and whether it is justified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

There is a serious issue in terms of wp:verify. Especially those events supposedly mentioned in a couple of offline books are impossible to be verified. In general I fail to see a Slav Macedonian guerilla participation in this incident. By the way there is also no mount "Makros" in the surrounding region too.Alexikoua (talk) 16:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

By conducting a quick research it appears that "B. Bonchev" was the head of the Bulgarian department for the colonization of Eastern Macedonia and Thrace that time. Very weird that another Bonchev was found among the revolutionaries.Alexikoua (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Alexikoua, here are all citations starting from the top first one to the last bottom one:

1."Подоцна, на 22 септември, истиот одред нападна германски конвој од автомобили на патот кон гратчето Лахна. Но по оваа акција не задоцни и реагирањето на германскиот окупатор. На 17 октомври 1941 година една голема единица ги блокира селата Горно и Долно Кердилија и целото машко население на возраст од 17-70 годдини, 212 души, ѕверски ги масакрираа. Одредите Андруцос и Атанасиос Дијакос по нападите на германскиот окупатор врз селата во Нитритско и по превземените операции на чистење на теренот, не можеа веќе да опстанат и да дејствуваа во иста формација во каква што се наоѓаа тогаш. Еден дел од борците се врати назад во своите села, а другите се повлекоа и тоа едни во Источна Македонија на левата страна од реката Струма, а други во окупираната од Германците територија во Централна Македонија".--Forbidden History (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

2."Во првите денови од окупацијата партиската организација во Драмско го исползува краткиот интервал од сломот на грчката администрација до оформувањето на бугарската окупаторска управа и ги реорганизира своите месни партиски организации. Меѓу иницијаторите на новото движење се Џанис Апостолос, Барба Параскевас, Мазаракис Арабаџис и МАзаракис Ламброс,, членови на Покраинскиот комитет за Македонија и Тракија (сите загинаа во Драмското востание и по него), браќата ПЕтрос и Агрир Крокос, грчки бегалци од Бугарија, населени во село Киргија, Петар Пастрмаци, македонец од градот Просочени, Николаидис, Атанас Карамусули и Георгиос Поридис (бегалци од Мала Азија) од Просочени и други. Окружниот комитет на КПГ во Драма наскоро ќе го започне издавањето на својот илегален орган Неос Дромос (Нов Пат) додека повремено беа издавани леотци и на македонски јазик".--Forbidden History (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

3. As you can see on the talk page I kindly asked for a Greek editor to review the toponyms, since I don't know their Greek names, but here is the quote about mount Makros "На 20 август 1941 година на Првиот пленум на Околискиот комитет на КПГ за Драмско, раководителот Петар Пастрамаци, подооцна познат како капетан Кичо, им соопшти на учесниците на Пленумот дека веќе е формиран воен штаб, на кој му се потребни борци. Според раскажувањата на Ѓорѓи Бончев, кој учествувал на Пленумот како реонски раководител од Просочени, еден месец по одржаниот Пленум на КПГ за Драмско, од Партизанскиот штаб, сместен на планината Макрош, до сите реонски и месни организации бил пренесен сигналот да почнат напади врз општините,, полициските участоци и касарните, да се ликвидира и да се парализира окупаторската власт."--Forbidden History (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

4. "За почеток на првата широка акција во Драмско беше одредена ноќта меѓу 28 и 29 септември 1941 година, во 11 часот вечерта." This is confirmed by Greek citizens as well, you can read more here and here --Forbidden History (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

5. "Во одредениот ден и час партизаните од Просочени извршиле напад врз општината, полицискиот участок и касарната.Општинската зграда била нападната од деветмина борци, участокот од дваесет, а касарната од преостанатите осумнаесет души. На 29 септември изутрината во гратчето Просочени била прогласена народна власт. Една комисија почнала да собира доброволци. На митингот на македонски јазик зборувал Ѓорѓи Бончев, а прокламацијата за востанието на грчки јазик, ја прочитал Андониос Николаидис." And the quote from the second source for this even is:"Интересно е да се забележи дека за време на Драмското востание од Септеври 1941, организириано од комунистичката партија на Грција, во кое учествувале и Македонци, при ослободување на градот Просечен бил одржан говор на македонски јазик." --Forbidden History (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

6. "На 29 септември кон пладне се појави бугарска војска, која пред Просочени наиде на силен отпор и покрај учеството на два бугарски авиона, што фрлаа бомби, војската не успеа да влезе во градот и беше принудена да отстапи. Дури вечерта, откако доби ново засилување од други единици со артилерија и минофрлачи, војската влезе во градот и започна масакр врз населението. Во овие борби од партизаните загинаа десет души, меѓу кои од Просочени Иван Велјанчев, член на раководството на младинската организација, Васил Шапков, Христо Европов, Ѓорѓи Шапера и Ифандопулос. Прокоп Караиванов умре претепан, додека Христо Булбуџиевски и Димитар Росиловалиев беа осудени на смрт и стрелани. Од село Карликово, Ѓорѓи Пејков беше осуден од воен суд на смрт и стрелан. Исто така беа фатени и стрелани двајца броци од Волак." I think I covered them all. One you translate them please remove the tags you've placed there. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I checked this source "Richard Clogg, A Concise History of Greece, Cambridge University Press, 1992, pp. 104", and here is a screenshot of the page: https://ibb.co/3FjbqRS . Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with this uprising but you guys are welcome to let me know what you think. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 17:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

This source "Rossos, Andrew (1997). The Journal of Modern History Vol. 69, No. 1: Incompatible Allies: Greek Communism and Macedonian Nationalism in the Civil War in Greece, 1943-1949. USA: The University of Chicago Press. p. 45." is not reliable. Andrew Rossos is well known for his ahistorical claims that are rarely based on evidence such as that the Ancient Macedonians were Hellenes. Furthermore, he tries to link some kind of continuity from the Ancient Macedonians all the way to the modern-day. Therefore I don't think an author that is so ahistorical and unobjective is reliable. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 17:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

This source "Roudometof, Victor (2002). Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict: Greece, Bulgaria and the Macedonian question. USA: Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 95–103. ISBN 0-275-97648-3." I checked this source and there is no information about Macedonian Slavs being involved in the Drama uprising.

As I have mentioned with this source "M. Danforth, Loring (1995). The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World. USA: Princeton University Press. p. 73. ISBN 0-691-04357-4." there is no information there to support that the Slav Macedonian population was involved in the uprising.

Forbidden History, could you please provide an image of "Helenē Giannakakē, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis, (1997). Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912. Berg Publishers. p. 52. ISBN 9781859731338." So we can check the source. You can upload it on this site https://imgbb.com/. Thanks. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Again this source was cited for the sympathies that local Macedonian Slavs had toward the KKE since 1924. Here is the book for you

I double-checked this source again "Agnew, John (2009). Globalization and Sovereignty. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. p. 74. ISBN 9780742566750." but I can't find any information about the Slav Macedonians joining the Drama Uprising. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

It proves that the KKE (Communist party of Greece) between 1924-1935, supported the idea of separate state. You are playing with the words in all of your comments. The sources are quoted that in the period even before the uprising, there was Macedonian Slav minority that were promised rights even a state. So, discrediting a source by saying he is not mentioning the Drama Uprising and the source is quoted for totally different thing, speaks enough about your approach to this article. Please read more details here.Peacemaker67, since you've edited the phrases differently now, please have in mind the previous version of the sentence when reading this comments by Stoyan. Thanks--Forbidden History (talk) 09:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

StoyanStoyanov80, also Bulgarian historians are well known for long denying the Macedonian existence and they are cited across the articles you are editing. Andrew is Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Toronto. Says enough about his relevance. --Forbidden History (talk) 09:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, you are playing with the words. The source is cited for the development of the sympathies of the Macedonian Slav population towards the Communist party of Greece from 1923 till the Civil War. It is cited to present how the Macedonian Slav minority developed the sympathies towards the KKE and Communist party of Greece.--Forbidden History (talk) 09:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

On this page we read: "When the Bulgarians occupied eastern Macedonia in 1941, they began a campaign to win the loyalty of the Slavic speaking inhabitants of Greek Macedonia and to instill in them a Bulgarian national identity" - This means they were not Bulgarians! "Resistance to the German occupation (note: he is not speaking of Civil War, but World War II-1941) in western Macedonia was organized by the Greek Communist Party, which hoped to win the support of the local Slavic-speaking inhabitants of the area by promising them equal rights in the future 'people's democracy' - So again you are taking this out of the context. Danforth was cited about the support of hte local Macedonian Slavs toward KKE.Peacemaker67, please have in mind the previous version of the sentence when reading this comments by Stoyan, as well as the previous. Thanks--Forbidden History (talk) 09:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

This source was quoted to prove the existence of the Macedonian Slavs and the Macedonian Question. And shows the development of the support of the Macedonian Slavs towards the Communist party of Greece, shows that those sympathies and alliance lasted till the Civil War. --Forbidden History (talk) 09:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, please stop editing my comments, just quote them and reply underneath them. Thank you. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 11:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

When did the Slav-Macedonian partisans became active and when did their number increase?

Per Elisabeth Barker's book "Macedonia. Its place in Balkan power politics" by Greenwood Press reprint from 1980: The Greek Communist Party, which had partly freed itself from the Macedonian burden in 1935, managed to avoid resuming it until the summer of 1943. When the Party, through E.A.M.-E.L.A.S., tried earlier to organize resistance in Greek Macedonia, it met with resistance from nationalist-minded Greeks. Then in 1943 Italia capitulated and Tito sent Tempo. Svetozar Vukmanović-Tempo, Broz Tito’s special emissary, having reorganized the partisan movement in Yugoslav Macedonia crossed the frontier and made contact with the Greek Communists. His object was to get the Greeks to recognize the potentialities of the Slavo-Macedonians and to organize them in partisan units under Communist leadership. The Greek Communists, probably reluctantly, agreed, and S.N.O.F., the Slav National Liberation Front, was formed, etc. Check here please: on pp. 109-128. Jingiby (talk) 05:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting. I fail to see a connection to the specific incident in Drama which occured during the first stage of the occupation.Alexikoua (talk) 09:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua, Particiaption of the Maceodnian Slavs on the side of the resistance is the connection with the pre war stands of the KKE and that was United and Independent Macedonian state.--Forbidden History (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, my initial sentence and claim was transformed into something that wasn't written by me and now I'm questioned to give a birth date of something that it was growing through the period until became resistance. My original sentence was: "However, large number of Slav speaking Macedonians supported the policy and stand of KKE and that is recognition of distinct Macedonian Slav minority, which started developing from the Third Congress of KKE (held in 1924) onward[9], and therefore these Macedonian Slavs joined the resistance movement, led by KKE." This paragraph still needs better structure.--Forbidden History (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

That above is confirmed also by B. Kondis in his article “Macedonian Question as a Balkan problem in the 1940s." as follows: In the Bulgarian occupied territory the Greek population was being decimated by mass murders and forced migrations. This movement started with the arrival of the Bulgarian troops and their objective was not to convert the local population, since there were few Slavs, but to eliminate it and replace it with Bulgarian colonists. In August 1941, as a result of the Bulgarian persecutions, the first guerrilla units appeared in eastern Macedonia under the name «Ελευθερία» and undertook to resist the invaders. In the end of September, however, the Bulgarians provoked a popular revolt in Drama, Doxato and Kavalla, which ended in massacres of the Greek population... Moreover, in the summer of 1943 Tempo came into contact with partisan leaders in Greece, Albania and Bulgaria and informed them of the Yugoslav plan for the postwar solution of the “Macedonian question” without making, any reference to any territorial changes in Macedonia. Specifically Tempo proposed the creation of a Balkan General Staff which would coordinate the activities of the partisan units. Slavo-Macedonians would be permitted to form their own political organizations and armed units, which should be able to cross the frontiers and operate in the neighboring countries. Tempo’s major objective was to transform the Bulgarian-oriented Slavophones into Slavo-Macedonians who would achieve their unity with the acquisition of Bulgarian and Greek territory. The leadership of the EAM/ELAS resistance movement in Greece rejected the idea for a Balkan General Staff, but permitted the organization of the Slavo-Macedonians into a Slav National Liberation Front (SNOF) and the creation of special Slavo-Macedonian armed units within the ranks of ELAS. These units caused a great deal of trouble to ELAS throughout 1944 and in October of that year ELAS units were forced to attack the SNOF formations which withdrew into Yugoslav Macedonia. Check here please: on pp . 151-153. Jingiby (talk) 12:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Jingiby. That's very enlightening.Alexikoua (talk) 16:14, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, I see that you try to pull this out of any context. As you can see in the history log and sources recognition of the local Macedonian Slav minority was done0 already in 1924, and also the printing of the Primer ABECEDAR, written in Latin on the dialect of the Macedonian Slavs living near Florina. What I'm trying to to point out in this article and you are constantly transforming my sentences and points is that KKE with this act got the sympathies of the Macedonian Slavs, that within a period of time, was kept and get even stronger and resulted with Slav Macedonians joining the Drama Uprising that was led by the Communist Party of Greece (I never said that Macedonians organized the uprising). And if you like to talk about World War II that's another thing. First Macedonian Antifascist Organization (MAO) was formed in Edessa in 1942. They also agreed to act under KKE directives soon after. The link between Macedonian Slav minority and KKE activism is going on since 1924 and you cannot deny that or to put Yugoslav label on it.--Forbidden History (talk) 08:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

This might be a fact, but Florina and Abecdar are not part of this context. You understand that Florina was not even close to the affected area.Alexikoua (talk) 09:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

What I can see from sources is failed Greek recognition of Bulgarian minority in 1927, which afterwards was followed by a recognition of a Slavic-speaking Greek community confirmed with the Abecedar. In 1934 is the Comintern recognition (incl. KKE) as Macedonians and in 1941 is a new recognition as Bulgarians by Bulgarian authorities. Jingiby (talk) 10:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua, Jingiby - how can you say that ABECEDAR is not recognition of Slav speaking Macedonian minority (not Bulgarian-but Macedonian)- when League of Nations clearly notes which minority was depraved of their status and that is confirmed later on by the World organizations of human rights (see my refferences bellow), on contrary Bulgaria and Serbia did a propaganda, so that the copies of the primer to be burned and thrown instead to reach the Slav Macedonian kids in the villages. I know where is Florina, I'm drawing perspective why and when Slav Macedonians started having sympathies towards the KKE and that begun after this extra mile of effort that Greek government did to recognize that minority-that is why the Macedonian minority respected and had sympathies towards the KKE and resistance movement organized by them. I don't know why are you twisting the points and facts with something different just to discredit my thought and point. Here are some sources that clearly speaks of what minority lived in Greece in 1924//1925: and this one is in Greek.--Forbidden History (talk) 12:25, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Andrew Rossos is not reliable

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I don't support the addition of the controversial Andrew Rossos as based on his behavior he is not reliable. This source "Rossos, Andrew (1997). The Journal of Modern History Vol. 69, No. 1: Incompatible Allies: Greek Communism and Macedonian Nationalism in the Civil War in Greece, 1943-1949. USA: The University of Chicago Press. p. 45." is not reliable. Andrew Rossos is well known for his ahistorical claims that are rarely based on evidence such as that the Ancient Macedonians weren't't Hellenes. Furthermore, he tries to link some kind of continuity from the Ancient Macedonians all the way to the modern-day ethnic Macedonians. Therefore I don't think an author that is so ahistorical and unobjective is reliable.

He has been criticized by multiple historians that you can read about in this article:

https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Andrew_Rossos --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 12:05, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

There are numerous of authors that claims that Ancient Macedonians were not Hellens, and that is not point of discussion here not can make relevance to some author work. Keep your views for yourself, Andrew is world recognized author. Thanks.--Forbidden History (talk) 12:15, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

A historian that ignores sources and evidence is not reliable. I know of a few other historians that are this criticized, so there is likely a good reason for this. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 12:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Rossos is a Macedonian from Greece and some of his works are criticized as biased. Jingiby (talk) 12:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Everyone commenting here needs to be mindful of the BLP policy. It is not optional, and breaches are dealt with harshly. His article looks like a hatchet job, and at least two of the authors here have been involved in adding purely negative material to it. What other reviews did his book receive? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, the only edits I have made on the Andrew Rossos article is adding 'According to multiple authors' and then self-reverting myself for a reason that I can't remember now. We can take a look at the fringe theories that Rossos pushes if you guys wish to. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 13:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Once again, Rossos is not alone in the theory of "Ancient Macedonians were not Hellens". We are not discussing the antiquity here. By the way I just saw who made the last edits on Andrew Rossos and hey look it's only you and Jingiby discrediting the professor this last month, so you can have your "facts" supported here. Peacemaker67 please take a look at their editing patterns and you'd get my point. This is unbelievable.--Forbidden History (talk) 08:32, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Once again that of Rossos is a fringe theory. Moreover whether they were originally Ancient Greeks or not, they were fully hellenized and vanished as a separate community in 4th century BC., i.e. they have nothing to do with modern Macedonians which arose in 20th century outside the frontiers of this Ancient Kingdom.Jingiby (talk) 08:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Jingiby can you agree with Stoyan, what you after. He is saying that Rossos said that Ancient Macedonians are not Hellens you are saying that he said that modern Macedonians are Ancient Macedonians. Modern Macedonians are mix of Slavs and Ancient Macedonians as every other nation in the world. Macedonia was divided in 1913 by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia with the Treaty of Bucharest. Who do you think inherited the culture and ancient civilization than the people that lived in that area. I mean I don't what's your point with this defocuses, from the Drama uprising. You are making confusions with the Civil War, with Ancient Macedonia...--Forbidden History (talk) 12:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

There is no way a very limited and local consensus is going to develop here that is of any use to anyone going forward. I suggest someone posts a neutral question about Rossos' reliability at WP:RSN to get a wider community view. If no-one trusts themselves to post something neutral, I will do it and post a link here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 can you please check the editing patterns on Rossos article it is done by these two accounts 2 weeks ago, in order to discredit him, here. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 12:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

It's not just about what is written but whether the source is reliable. Andrew Rossos is not reliable as he is pushing for the political theory of Macedonism and selectively using sources and facts in order to find continuity from the Ancient Macedonians to the modern ethnci Macedonians.

For example on page 30 of Macedonian and the Macedonians it says "Samuil proclaimed himself tsar of the multi-ethnic ‘‘Samuil’s

State,’’ (18) or ‘‘Macedonian Kingdom.’’(19)" However when I checked the sources 18 and 19 for that section they are from Stjepan Antoljak and George Ostrogorsky who are both Yugoslavian historians. This is important as during Yugoslavian times in an attempt to build the new Macedonian ethnic identity. In Serbia since these theories that Tsar Samuel is not a Bulgarian king have been rejected by members of the Serbian Academy of Science and the Arts such as Srđan Pirivatrić and Tibor Živković.

According to multiple historians there is no evidence to support the claims about Tsar Samuil in Rossos' book.

D. Hupchick, The Balkans: From Constantinople to Communism, Springer, 2002, ISBN 0312299133, p. 53.

Kazhdan, Alexander; Brand, Charles M. (1991). "Samuel of Bulgaria". In Kazhdan, Alexander (ed.). The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press. p. 1838. ISBN 0-19-504652-8.

Andrew Rossos also fails to point out the fact that Ivan Vladislav of Bulgaria, Samuel's brother and eventual heir to the Bulgarian throne is described as Bulgarian in the Bitola Inscription (https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Bitola_inscription). And this is just one example of the lack of objectivity by Andrew Rossos. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 01:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Per Troebst Rossos' teleological representation, suffers from the fixation on what he calls "Macedonianism" ("Macedonism"), that is, in the source-wise weakly and sporadically supported view... Rossos excludes, and like the science of history in Skopje, puts occasional expressions of individual representatives of the small intellectual elites of the southern Slavs of Ottoman Macedonia in a fragile continuity line in exile in Russia, Western Europe or Bulgaria to support the Macedonian thesis... The counterpart of this selective approach is to hide such strands of development and events that do not fit into this interpretation scheme. This is especially true for the ethno-nationally Bulgarian-defining part of the Macedonian movement - Macedonian Bulgarians. For more see: Recension from Professor Stefan Troebst about Rossos's book: Macedonia and the Macedonians. A History, 2008

Again the objectiveness is questioned here. https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2014_1st_place_in_teaching_history_march_2015_0.pdf --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 01:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I've told you what should be done about getting a community view on Rossos' reliability. But given his academic status in a Canadian university and that his book is published by a respected US university press, there is no way on earth you are going to get him assessed as unreliable. Perhaps he is biased, but all we do in that situation is attribute what he says inline. Just start a neutrally-worded thread at WP:RSN to see whether I'm right, or drop the stick. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 Sorry English is not my first language, I understood that you were suggesting to either discuss it here or to ask for extra assistance on WP:RSN. I will do that now. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 02:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Just be aware that I will shoot it down if the request isn't neutrally worded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:52, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

And as I said, I am happy to post the request if you are not sure you can post something neutral. You will then be free to post your views, of course. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:18, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Always a good idea to post a link here so others are aware. The discussion is here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is Andrew Rossos Reliable?. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:54, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Source that says Macedonians were involved in the uprising

A History of the Macedonian People (1979) p. 332, clearly states "The major event of 1941 was the Drama Uprising in which Greeks, Macedonians and the various nationalities living in the area took part." Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:17, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, as an Admin I kindly ask you to check the editing patterns of these two users. I run on a same tactic used on the article Bitola Inscription. In order to discredit my sources the user Jingiby, created an article few days ago, called Law for the Protection of Macedonian National Honour, in order to discredit all the Macedonian sources and to spread lies about the period of Socialistic Republic of Macedonia. I think these are serious steps and actions taken by these two editors to gain their POV and present it as NPOV. Please as and Admin take a look at these two cases and I'm sure there are bunch more. He even deleted the Talk History part in which he calls out for this second article.Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 13:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Exactly! And that is what I'm trying to point out here, but obviously some editors would do anything to change the facts. (discrediting sources, asking for citations, verifications...playing with words, changing the focus of the topic). The same editor is doing this on every article related to the Macedonian history. Forbidden History (talk) 12:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Probably Alexander the Great, Samuel of Bulgaria and Goce Delchev are classified in the book as ethnic Macedonians. Though Macedonian historiography is classified by independent researchers as pseudo-science. Jingiby (talk) 12:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes Jingiby probably and they have sources quoted to explain why, Samuel of Bulgaria (no one called him like that, except Bulgaria), Goce Delcev, also fought for liberation of Macedonia and it was ethnic Macedonian, confirmed by his sister and two nephews. His quotes on Bulgaria are clear. "Bulgaria is a Disease of which we should not get affected"..."Until my shoulder is capable to carry a riffle I will not allow any Bulgarian officer to step inside Macedonia", he haven't fired a single bullet nor started any revolution on Bulgarian territory in the name of Bulgaria. Stop watering the problem we have here. And please let the admins know, whether Bulgaria recognize existence of Macedonian nationality and Macedonian minority, so they can better understand what are you doing here on wikipedia 24/7,365 days per year, especially on all Macedonian history related articles? OK? Thanks Forbidden History (talk) 13:32, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Try to keep on topic people. I am fully aware of the issues involved with this subject area on Wikipedia, FH. I have been bringing people to ArbCom over the Macedonian question and related Balkan issues for nearly nine years, and handing out discretionary sanctions in the area since 2016. A history book co-written by a high-ranking Yugoslav Macedonian Partisan commander who was in a position to know who participated in the uprising specifically says Macedonians were involved. This will take some discrediting, and spurious statements that the book also claims Alexander the Great was an ethnic Macedonian without having even checked the book (it doesn't, BTW) will just be ignored as hyper-partisan nonsense, and frankly it is below you, Jingiby. Ambit claims that all Macedonian historiography is discredited will also be ignored without extensive high-quality preferably Western academic sources to back them up. What I want to see here is sources that either support what Apostolski says or sources that refute what he says. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

It appears that A History of the Macedonian People adopts some weird views about various personalities as noted by Jingiby.Alexikoua (talk) 23:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't actually say any of those things, Alexikoua. How about people read a source before they make claims about what it says? Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but there is some pretty obvious POV pushing going on here when an editor makes a spurious claim about a source, then another editor supports what the first editor says, yet neither have apparently read the book. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 since you have access to the book A History of the Macedonian People in question, can please you let me know what platform it is available on? As I can only see a few sentences on Google Books. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 01:33, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure it is here [1]. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you I appreciate it --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 01:49, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, thanks for spending great amount of time to understand the problems we are facing. I will try to be as short as possible. During the Ottoman Empire, whole Balkan region was under their rule. Greece won over their independence in the period of 1821 and 1830, Bulgaria was freed by the Turks after the Russo-Turkish wars in 1878 Treaty of Berlin. Not even one single part of ethnic Macedonia was included in those newly formed states (that is a proof that the land didn't belonged to them nor the people living in the area were of pure Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian ethnicity). That is why IMRO (VMRO) was formed in a first place, to liberate the Macedonian lands under the slogan "Macedonia for the Macedonians" and to form a state. But the Balkan countries around Macedonia started the Balkan Wars, which ended with the Treaty of Bucahrest by annexing parts of Macedonia to Greece, Bulgaria and what is present North Macedonia it was all taken by Serbia. Therefore Macedonians still didn't had their own country until after the World War II. So, what Jingiby and Stoyan are doing here, not just on this article but across whole wikipedia is presenting those Macedonians as purely Bulgarians. And actually big number of our country's population and massive Macedonian emigration in the States,Canada,Australia are refugee children from Greek annexed part of Macedonia (and they declare themselves as Macedonians-nor Tito, nor Commintern pressured them to declare themselves as Macedonians in those countries). My cited sources of Helsinki Committee, Human Rights Watch from 1994, Human Rights Watch 1999, BBC report, are proving what I'm saying here and what Macedonian historiography says. The BBC report that Stoyanov deleted as "irrelevant" proves that. The POV they try to push on this article is that those people were either Bulgarians or Greeks or some third type of Slav Macedonians of Greek origin. That is why the background of this uprising also matters, because the Greek state for the first time in 1924 (pressured by the League of Nations-today known as UN), released a book primer for the Macedonian Slavs written in Macedonian language using the Latin Alphabet. That is when the sympathies towards the leftist arose amongst the Macedonian minority of Greece. Those are the facts they try to misrepresent. Here are some Greek sources,another one, that confirms what I'm saying and what Macedonian historiographers are saying. Just Google Translate the page and you'd understand the facts, that Jingiby, Stoyan and partly Alexikoua are trying to remove from this article. I mean even the Greek Wikipedia confirms what I'm saying about the sympathies of the Macedonian minority towards KKE. Google translate the page. Sorry for my long post and thanks for your understanding. --Forbidden History (talk) 08:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I suggest both of you read the statute of the IMRO (https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization). For example in Chapter 1 of the statute, it says:

"Chapter I. – Goal

Art. 1. The goal of BMARC is to secure full political autonomy for the Macedonia and Adrianople regions .

Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the Bulgarian population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.

Chapter II. – Structure and Organization

Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender, ..."

Also this page explains well the issue: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Macedonian_question --::::::::::

StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

StoyanStoyanov80, why are you playing now again. You are saying here is the statute of IMRO and you are posting statute of BMARC (that has nothing to do with the Macedonians and the Macedonian movement) - BMARC is not mentioned in any of the memoirs of the Macedonian revolutioners.So, don't add more confusin here we have enough, I believe. Thanks.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

BMARC which stands for Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees was the first name of IMRO. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

there is almost no evidence of the existence of BMORO, not only was it never mentioned in any of the revolutionaries but the only photo we do have of it is extremely fishy, when IMRO was created according to Petre Pop Arsov the stamp (used to approve documents) was one of, if not the first thing they created, and if you look at the constitution, no stamp, not only that but according to bulgarian historians it was discovered in bulgaria, so how did a organization who was founded on Thessaloniki ended up getting their constitution all the way to bulgaria? the only revolutionary who was born from bulgaria was Jane who wasn't even a member at the time Gurther (talk) 09:16, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

References

As I said it has nothing to do with MRO (Macedonian Revolutionary Organization). What some Bulgarians tried to do (BMARC) it has nothing to do with what Macedonians did. Show the statute of MRO and IMARO not of BMARC, if you think that these comments will bring some positive outcome for the Drama Uprising, if not, I don't get your point. Thanks,--Forbidden History (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

It's still the same organization even if it changes its name. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 22:56, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Then maybe you can elaborate why none of the revolutionaries mentions BMARC in their memoirs? Maybe I should post the statute of IMRO-DPMNE (they also claim they are the descendants of IMRO)-I still don't see your point spreading this conversation to eternity.--Forbidden History (talk) 23:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Based on historical evidences[4][5], it is believed by Bulgarian, Western and Russian historians[6][7][8][9][10][30] that in 1896 or 1897 this first and probably unofficial name was changed to Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees (BMARC); and the organisation existed under this name until 1902, when it was changed to Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (SMARO). While part of the Macedonian historians[11][12][31] also acknowledge the existence of the name "ВMARC" in the very early period of the Organisation (1894–1896), in the Republic of Macedonia it is generally assumed that in the 1896–1902 period the name of the organization was "SMARO". Both sides lack conclusive documentary evidence, as neither of these names appears in the IMRO documents but is known from undated printed or handwritten statutes.[citation needed] However, Macedonian historians point to the fact that a copy of the "SMARO" statute is kept in London under the year of 1898.[13][dubious – discuss] It is not disputed that the organization changed its name to Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (IMARO) in 1905 and it is under this name referred to in Bulgarian historiography.[14] After disbanding itself during the first Bulgarian annexation of Macedonia (1915–1918), the organization was revived in 1920 under the name Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), under which it is generally known today.--StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 23:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

There you go, you denied yourself. if BMARC existed till 1902 and MRO was formed in 1893, that's OBVIOUSLY not the same organization. You skip copying this part of Wikipedia - According to Hristo Tatarchev's "Memoirs", IMRO was first called simply the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (MRO). Once again, I kindly ask you to stop this nonsense. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 23:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

What on earth has this got to do with the subject of the article? Can you take this discussion elsewhere please? Thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Helenē Giannakakē and Andonovski sources

Hi there, Forbidden History, since you added it can you please provide some kind of image of this source that you have added Helenē Giannakakē, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis, (1997). Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912. Berg Publishers. p. 52. ISBN 9781859731338. as I am not able to verify it. If anyone else can feel free to do so too. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 22:34, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I already posted the link, few days ago. Type communist and hit the search button.--Forbidden History (talk) 08:29, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I know I had a look, I just thought you had access to the full book but I can't find any evidence from that source that there were Slavic Macedonian volunteers involved in the Drama Uprising. It may be suitable for the Wiki page for the Communist Party of Greece but not for the section that are adding it on this page. Others are welcome to have a look for themselves. https://ibb.co/pZGyRpM --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

If possible, could the other editors monitoring this talk page also please share their opinion on this source?--StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 03:29, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll request full page copies from WP:RSX, then we will know what it says. These links are just to snippets, when we need the context. No-one should be dismissing a source based on that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 I will have a look tomorrow if it is available anywhere, but on the other hand, if there is no way to verify, it will need to be removed. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 17:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I just had a bit of time, the book is available in some libraries around the world https://www.worldcat.org/title/ourselves-and-others-the-development-of-a-greek-macedonian-cultural-identity-since-1912/oclc/1171872816&referer=brief_results but there is no full pdf version. Also I searched for the term'Drama Uprising' is not present at all in the entire book (https://ibb.co/D7jMLcW). While 'Drama' is present on only 3 pages (https://ibb.co/nR0n0Vv) two of which is are not related to the Drama Uprising while one is likely not but cannot be 100% verified.

Also on page 52 in the chapter of 'Identity and Numbers of Greece's Slav Macedonians' it says "villages were divided between those sympathetic to the Greeks and those identified as sympathetic to the Bulgarians." (https://ibb.co/ZdP41TV) It is also important that Slav Macedonian does not always mean ethnic Macedonian, you can be a Serb or Bulgarian living in Macedonia such as is the modern-day Blagoevgrad province, and still call yourself a Slav Macedonian while not identifying as an ethnic one.

I would vote for the removal of this quote in a month from now if no new information comes to light from it to support the section of "There were some Greek partisans in the area then, but they were of little significance. With the capitulation of Italy in 1943 and the Soviet victories over Nazi Germany large numbers of Slavic-speaking Macedonians continued to support the resistance forces led by Communist Party of Greece (KKE) and more joined." Just because Slav Macedonians supported the Greek Communist party is not conclusive evidence that they were involved in the Drama Uprising. We can move these sources that say this to the Communist Party of Greece page. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 20:22, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

A full pdf version? You mean a copyright violation? Sheesh. That is what WP:RSX is for. Why on earth are you intent on removing books that provide important context on the occupied area and the Greek-speaking Greeks and Slav-speaking Greeks/Macedonians (I am aware of the ways various factions define and name these people, and your suggested formulation is not the only valid one) that lived in it? We have at least one source that clearly says that "Macedonians" and Greeks and other "nationalities" were involved in the uprising, and exactly NONE I can see that refute that. As I have done with the Prelude section thus far, it is important that the context for the uprising (the territory involved, its population etc) are included in the article. I am now looking for reliable sources that break down the population in eastern Macedonia and even in the Drama prefecture prior to the occupation, to add to the information I have sourced from Lemkin. As I have already said, I have requested copies of a range of pages from Giannakakē et al to see if they have any useful context. If they don't, I will be the first to remove it. If I do, I will be happy to provide quotes of relevant bits of text. I fail to see what on earth the rush is with wanting to delete material and sources from the article, unless you are pushing a POV. I am working my way through it methodically from the top, I have no connection to any of the peoples mentioned in the article so can hardly be accused of POV-pushing, and suggest you wait and see where the sources take me before tag bombing or trying to delete things. The POV-pushing here on both sides is pretty obvious, and if it continues, I'm going to report the relevant editors at ANI. In the meantime, I remind everyone that this article is subject to discretionary sanctions from any admin because it falls under the ARBEE case. That means you can get blocked or topic-banned by any admin (other than me of course, because I am actively editing the article) for causing disruption on this article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, I hope now you are getting my point, why I was citing the printing of the primer ABECEDAR (supported by League of Nations), Helsinki, Human Rights Watch etc.those are NPOV sources and they clearly expressing how those people identified themselves in that period. I have three more sources that are speaking about the Drama Uprising, but Jingiby deleted two of them - under the same reason he wants to push now for the official book 'History of the Macedonian People'. His reason was that the book was old and printed in 1968. And the book is officially released by the Institute of National History, here is the link to it. It's work that explicitly is devoted to the Drama Uprising event. I cannot understand how can Academic supported work be unreliable source for Jingiby and Stoyan, and in same time their own Bulgarian author Georgi Daskalov is quoting that same author and his book, that Jingiby and Stoyan discredited and forced me to delete it as a source.Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 21:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I am examining the sources that are currently being used to see if they support what they are being cited for. Македонците под Грција во борбата против фашизмот: (1940-1944). [Macedonians under Greece in the fight against fascism: (1940-1944)] is apparently in Macedonian and is not available in English so far as I know, so I am at a disadvantage because while I can read Serbo-Croatian, I struggle with Cyrillic and don't know any Bulgarian either. I have now formed the view that all the relevant reliably published sources for this fairly obscure event need to be included, even if they are older. I don't subscribe the idea that government-approved histories are inherently unreliable, or that it is necessary for reliable histories to be post-modernist. For example, some of the most outstanding, enduring and commonly cited academic texts on the Yugoslav Chetnik movement of WWII were written in the early 1970s. However, government-sponsored history texts may need to be attributed inline, ie, "according to a book published in 1968 by the communist-era Yugoslav Macedonian Institute for National History, ethnic Macedonians were involved in the Drama uprising" (if that is supported by the Andonovski book), rather than in Wikipedia's voice (ie stating it as a bare fact). Now, can you quote me and provide a page number for a passage in Macedonian from Andonovski's book that specifically says who was involved in the uprising? Or point me to where it is above if you have already pasted it here? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

My point was the same. I was not using this source to speak about World War II in general, but for a specific event. Of course, on page 54 and 55 he is listing the Macedonian fighters from the village of Prosechen and the ones that survived the uprising. And here is a snippet view of the page 54 in which the Macedonian fighter spoke in Macedonian and proclamation was read in Greek by the Andonios Nikolaidis. This list of people you may find already in the article, because I was forced to find "fresher" book, and luckily this same author printed one general overview in another of his books, which is already cited in the article. I have excerpt of this book (as a small brochure), released by this author before this book, that I can send it via email. This brochure was like a prelude for his Academic work, and it is called 'Drama Uprising. If you want a pdf let me know. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 23:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok if you want to keep this source in the prelude section that is fine however don't include it in the Drama Uprising section as there is nothing about the Drama Uprising there. Peacemaker67 just because something is reliable in one area it does not make it reliable in all areas, the sources that are contributing the to nation-building process in Macedonia are not reliable as they have a clear bias. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 23:20, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Wait a minute, countries that were fighting to liberate themselves and create their own state are biased, and the countries that were killing them and stopping them to create their own country are relevant? I think we are still living in the 21st century, don't we. I know that official Bulgarian stand for Macedonia is same as in World War II, but we are on wikipedia and please be more respectful to me, my country and history.--Forbidden History (talk) 23:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I am finding this whole "my nationalism is ok, but other people's isn't" quite amusing, StoyanStoyanov80. Every country has historiography that contributes to the nation-building process (in Australia one of ours is the Anzac myth), in no way does that make it illegitimate, although there are those who question its accuracy. FH, I don't want your version of what is there, I need to be able to verify it myself, so what I need is the full original Macedonian text of the source that says that you say it says. Are you saying that it is available on pages 54 and 55? Any other pages that cover this event specifically? I don't want the pamphlet, I want the original source, Andonovski's book. If you don't have access to it, I'll ask at WP:RSX. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, No I don't have access to the one on Google Books.But if you need the text in editable form I'm willing to retype any page or paragraph you might ask for verification. Thanks,--Forbidden History (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks. So what I'll do is request a few pages either side of these two on RSX (the book is held by quite a few major unis, so should be able to be accessed) and when I get them I'll email them to you (and anyone else that wants to look at them) for translation/verification purposes, so you can produce some direct quotes of relevant text we can use to formulate the words to be used in the article. I'll also machine translate them for my own peace of mind. Does that sound ok? If so, send me an email so I can reply with the pages when I get them. That applies to anyone else that wants to see copies. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:50, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, please take into consideration all the pages at least (10), let's say from p.50-p.60. Thanks for doing this, but as I said I have his brochure in my hands, the sentences here and inside that book are 90% the same, plus I have his other book cited in the article, in which he also more or less mentioning the same events. So, I believe your judgment, no need to send me the pdf. I am at your disposal (tomorrow) to retype any parts that you might be interested to translate.Thanks, --Forbidden History (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 I am not a nationalist but maybe like a lot of Bulgarians I get fired up on this issue due to things such as the Law for the Protection of Macedonian National Honour that is currently getting tagbombed. I agree with your suggestion that we should add say according to Macedonian sources and according to Greek etc. If you understand what I mean. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

StoyanStoyanov80, I'm also not a nationalist, but a person which country invented the Law of Protection of the Nation - (Bulgaria), by which 7000 Jews were deported into Treblinka, to invent something like this it needs to be well sourced and relevant. If that Law is for real, there won't be any problem to provide me with the proper sources, right? Cause the ones used inside, are playing with the words, none of them speaks of such Law. Don't bring that topic here. Thanks, --Forbidden History (talk) 00:04, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

You are right FH, the Law for Protection of the Nation is a very dark part of Bulgaria's history. But please don't start genocide denying in regards to the Law for the Protection of Macedonian National Honour. I am not going to tolerate it. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 01:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

this stuff is hard enough to navigate without branching off into other Macedonian issues. Stay on topic people! We are talking about the Giannakakē and Andonovski sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Update: a helper at RSX has located a copy of Giannakakē, so I should be able to look at it shortly. I have a few requests there at the moment and don't want to overload them, so I'll request Andonovski once a couple have been received. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposal for resolution

Peacemaker67, Here is my proposal. To return one of the previous versions that was: "However, large number of Slav speaking Macedonians supported the policy and stand of KKE and that is recognition of distinct Macedonian Slav minority, which started developing from the Third Congress of KKE (held in 1924) onward, and therefore these Macedonian Slavs joined the Drama uprising and the whole resistance movement, led by KKE." I think we can build upon these line and find a way out. The tags that Jingiby put there (when? - cannot be answered with such structure of the sentence), and his second tag is trying to prove that those independent Macedonian groups were formed later and he is right (first one was formed in 1942 and then the rest). That was my point in the first place, to describe the pre-Drama Uprising relations between the Macedonian minority and KKE. In the same book, on page 305 we read, what i wrote above: "At its Third Extraordinary Congress, held in Athens from 16th November to 3rd December 1924 in accord with the position and recommendations of both the Balkan Communist Federation and the Comintern, the Party adopted the view of the need to unite the Macedonians into an independent state unit which would be an equal member of a broader Balkan federative community safeguarding the national and democratic rights of the masses." Then please read the pages 308 and 309. They clearly show what I was trying to say in the first place. That the mutual respect amongst the local Macedonians and KKE was developing since 1924. It clearly says that the KKE gain far more votes in Aegean part of Macedonia on the elections in 1932, many strikes and protest were organized by KKE (supported by local Macedonians and Greeks), that KKE helped in formation of IMRO (United) cells. Quote: "The conference decided that minority cells should be formed in conjunction with the local committees of the Greek Communist Party and that these should develop into special minorities’ branches." So, this was the background of the Drama Uprising, that I was trying to present there in a first place. Thanks to Peacemaker67, that found the whole book online. So, please share your opinion, I think we can find better census with this structure of the sentence then the active one. Let's not defocus anymore, we wrote long pages for only one sentence. Thanks for your understanding.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC) Alexikoua, did you translated/checked the quotations that I provided? So, we can settle those parts as well. Thanks.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Please stop the one-sided proposals. First, the region of Greek Macedonia foll almost entirely within the Italian occupation zone of Greece. Secondly, this area that falls to Bulgaria was small and there almost the entire population moved to Bulgaria by virtue of migration agreements after the Balkans and the First World War. According to Bulgarian data, only about 15,000 Bulgarians remained in all of Eastern Macedonia and Western Thrace at that time. Third: in June 1941, the entire Slavic-speaking leadership of the Greek Communist Party declared themselves Bulgarians. Fourth: we have an academic source that confirms the vast majority of Slavic-speaking people in Greece at that time felt Bulgarian. Fifth: sources were presented that unequivocally show that the point of refraction of the local Slavic-speakers from pro-Bulgarian to pro-Macedonian was in 1943. This happened after it became clear that Bulgaria would lose the war and Italy capitulated. The key here is the role of the Yugoslav Communists, who then recognized the Macedonians as a separate nation, promised that there would be a separate Macedonian republic after the war, created a distinct Macedonian Communist Party, and so on. This proposal contradicts with a lof of other well sourced articles backed by hundred of academic sources as: The Bulgarian occupation zone of Greece; Ohrana; SNOF; Regional Committee of Communists in Macedonia, etc. Jingiby (talk) 21:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I oppose, we need to go through every single source one by one and decide if it is reliable and whether it actually supports that section in the article. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

No, these sorts of proposals to revert to a previous version are untenable. The article needs to be rewritten based on the academic consensus, all the sources need to be verified, and other sources need to be located and incorporated into the article that provide as many details as possible about the uprising and its participants. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say to revert it back, but to build upon such sentence here. Modified by all of you and inserted into the main article. Since StoyanStoyanov80 is into checking the sources, I think he needs to check the source of Jingiby as well. That is: "The Struggle for Greece, 1941-1949" by Christopher Montague Woodhouse. Nowhere in the book book Tsar Boris is mentioned either, nor the Drama uprising. Sentence made up out a blue sky by the author that million and a half Bulgarians lived there needs to be supported by facts. My sources (Helsinki committee, Human Rights Watch,BBC) that made official reports of the population there and judged by the printing of the primer ABECEDAR, judged by the KKE activities and IMRO(United), that population were of Macedonian origin. Therefore that source is not reliable nor represents the real picture of the population. That sentence now is not NPOV. It can say that he addressed to the local population, or local Greek and Slavic population (but again you need a source), that other source of yours Ĭonchev, Dimitŭr (1993) - България и Беломорието (октомври 1940 - 9 септември 1944 г.), also doesn't mentions that Tsar Boris III gave speech in Dedeagach. Thanks.--Forbidden History (talk) 07:50, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The topic of this article is not the KKE, neither Macedonian Slavs, nor IMRO United, Ohrana, IMRO, Macedonian Bulgarians, the Macedonian issue etc.

I'm aware of that. But the cooperation between KKE and local Macedonians was of important role for the policy of KKE to be spread into Aegean part of Macedonia, prewar, during the first years and during the early/mid phases of the Civil War. The events need to have background, so the people can understand the development of things and events. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 09:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Forbidden History, please stop pushing again Yugoslav Communist Propaganda here. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 09:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

How about you stop deleting material when you clearly don't have consensus for it? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 why did you add the Apostolski source without consensus on the talk page? --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Where was there any argument here about it prior to me adding it? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Alexikoua said something but not sure if he has read the book. --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 22:50, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Neither of them had, because Jingiby said it contains statements that it does not, and Alexikoua backed him up. There had been no substantive and factually-based opposition to it, just nonsense ambit claims. You can't just make stuff up and expect people to take it as serious opposition. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:48, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Ĭonchev

I have requested the relevant page of Ĭonchev for verification purposes. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Here you are Peacemaker67: [2] Jingiby (talk) 10:49, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I’ll check the book scan thanks, not some dodgy online version. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Here is it. Jingiby (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

How is that a scan, exactly? It looks like copyvio link to me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 14:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The book of Yonchev itself is called: "България и Беломорието (октомври 1940 - 9 септември 1944 г.)." - Bulgaria and the Belomorie (October 1940 - 9 September 1944 г.) The title of a chapter on p. 63 is Беломорска област, i.e. Belomorie region. Jingiby (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

That is fine, but the link was completely inappropriate. It is to a current Greek governmental entity. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:21, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

In the Bulgarian Wikipedia the link is the same, though to be honest the Belomorie in Bulgarian political and historical memory is the area in modern Northern Greece located between Maritsa River and the Struma River. Jingiby (talk) 13:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

In Macedonia that whole annexed part of Macedonia is called Aegean part of Macedonia, but I think it's far to be called/oriented by the present Greek state. Thanks.--Forbidden History (talk) 18:46, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I understand that "Aegean Macedonia" is considered a bit POV by some, so I'm happy to use Belomorie without the link to the current Greek governmental entity. What is the correct original Bulgarian script for Belomorie, is it Беломорието? I will add a language template. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

In Bulgarian Aegean Sea is called White Sea, i.e. Бело море. The area around its coast in Thrace and Macedonia is called Беломорие. Беломорието is articulated, i.e. the Aegean. Jingiby (talk) 05:22, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Background information

The uprising itself covers less than 10% of the article. I wonder why the focus should be changed to Slavic speakers of a much wider region especially when the provided sources (Human Watch) don't say a word about the Drama uprising.Alexikoua (talk) 01:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Obviously I’ve been rewriting it from the start, so the background is being done first. The history of the region in which these events occurred is obviously important. Once the article has been rewritten we can discuss balance. I’ve been away for a week, will get back to it shortly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, my mates, and Happy New Year! Sorry, but this is undue weight and fringe view. Macedonians did not exist then as a separate community. Moreover, especially in this area Bulgarian Exarchist population was a minority under Ottoman rule. The Greeks and Turks formed the majority in Eastern Macedonia and Western Thrace, before the Balkan Wars. Macedonian identity arose in significance among local communists during 1930s, but it gained prevalence there after 1944 and especially during the Greek Civil War. Please check: Slavic speakers in Ottoman Macedonia. Jingiby (talk) 05:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

It clearly is not a fringe view, it is one of several views. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:05, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Peacemaker67 , Per John Van Antwerp Fine: "Until the late 19th century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is now two separate nationalities, comprised a single people, the Bulgarians. Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle ages and into the 19th century, the term ‘Macedonian’ was used entirely in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian. Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today." For more see: "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century," University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36–37; Per Loring M. Danforth: "At the end of the World War I there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Macedonian Slavs who had developed then some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians." For more see: "The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world", Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66. Per Dimitris Livanios: "Nodoubt, the vast majority of the Macedonian peasants, being neither communists nor members of IMRO (United), had not been previously affected by Macedonian national ideology. The British officials who attempted to tackle this issue in the 1940s noted the pro-Bulgarian sentiment of many peasants and pointed out that Macedonian nationhood rested ‘on rather shaky historical and philological foundations’ and therefore, had to be constructed by the Macedonian leadership." For more see: "The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949" (2008), Oxford University Press, ISBN 0191528722, p. 206. Jingiby (talk) 07:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I have provided a link to the article Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia. It provides sufficient info about the issue and readers who are interested of background information, could receive it there. Jingiby (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@Peacemaker: According to the same rationale we should also include the Greek presence in Macedonia since antiquity since this uprising was primarily launched by ethnic Greeks. Moreover, as part of the same rationale information about the early 20th cent. Macedonian struggle should also be included. What's also interesting is that the vast majority of Slav speakers in Drama and Serres were Patriartchists and adopted Greek national ideologies.Alexikoua (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Jingiby, do you want us to believe that Kurds and Palestinians do not exist?, since they don't have their own country today as well? What kind of quote is this: "Macedonians did not exist then as a separate community then. Moreover. especially in this area." If we need to follow your Bulgarian official politics we (the Macedonians) don't exist even today, since your country still doesn't recognize Macedonian existence and that is where you problems are coming from.Peacemaker67, quoted a Human Rights Watch Report as I saw. So, keep your Bulgarian nationalism at your domestic terrain not here. Thank you.--Forbidden History (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Forbidden History, Human Rights and historical research are absolutely different things. While in many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present fringe views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:

1. Recent scholarly books and chapters on the historiography of the topic
2. "Review Articles", or historiographical essays that explicitly discuss recent scholarship in an area.
3. Similarly conference papers that were peer reviewed in full before publication that are field reviews or have as their central argument the historiography.
4. Journal articles or peer reviewed conference papers that open with a review of the historiography. Jingiby (talk) 18:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Human Rights is a world recognized institution that deals exclusively with the Human Rights minority reports, so they know far better the situation on field itself. What minority where did it lived. Should I remind you that Bulgaria is receiving 14 years in a row a report that is not respecting the human rights of the Macedonian minority in 21 century (obviously, you don't respect them either)? If you don't recognize them you think they will magically disappear? That we should trust your "relevant" historiographers on that matter, instead of the independent world recognized organization as Human Rights Watch is? I thought we are living in 21 century and not 1941, please get serious. Thanks, --Forbidden History (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia has its own rules. Keep to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history). Read Criticism of Human Rights Watch. HRW has been the subject of heavy criticism from a number of observers. In that case it has used Yugoslav communist propaganda sources, that contradicts with academic consensus for background information. Jingiby (talk) 04:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)