Talk:Drag panic/Archive 1

Archive 1

Better image(s)

The image of RuPaul for this page is fitting, but I think it could be better. I'm having trouble finding a good image that fits Wikipedia's guidelines. If anybody could find a better image or has any tips for image licence in the future, that would be appreciated. ChocolateAvian (talk) 03:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Did you see the image used at 2022 drag performance protests? CT55555(talk) 02:53, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the image of RuPaul. This is not an article about RuPaul. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:26, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Merge?

Resolved

This and 2022 drag performance protests will likely cover much of the same ground, do we think they ought to be merged? Pinging page creators @CT55555: & @BlackJack92:. -- Pokelova (talk) 08:37, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Also pinging @TheTranarchist: since she has a lot of experience with the creation and maintenance of articles on anti-queer subjects. --Pokelova (talk) 08:45, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that they are the same topic and that merging them makes sense. CT55555(talk) 12:56, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping! I agree they should be merged. I'm more partial to merging the 2022 drag performance protests into this article than vice versa, since the panic began before 2022 (though certainly picked up speed then). After the merge (if there are no objections to it), when I have some time, I'll try and update the article since a lot more details could be added (particularly orgs that have been vocally protesting such things like Gays Against Groomers, the Proud Boys, and Guardians of Divinity). TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:23, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I also propose to merge 2022 drag performance protests as this entry since the one contains only 1 specific year while this one is more all encompassing.--BlackJack92 (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I do agree that the 2022 article is unnecessarily time limited and that should be addressed. However, this article presents the issues as uniquely American and that is ignoring the events in Canada and UK. I think the other article covers the topic more comprehensively. I also don't think "drag panic" is the all encompassing term of the phenomenon, I don't think that is how people searching for the issue will search for it. Only two sources in this article say "drag panic" in their title. Basically, both articles are flawed in their framing. CT55555(talk) 02:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

When there is no common name, we are entitled to come up with one that is descriptive. While the specific phrase "drag panic" doesn't appear in too many sources, many sources do describe a moral panic about drag queens. --Pokelova (talk) 06:57, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I would proceed to merge the pages if no one objects or if a formal vote is not needed.

As for the name of the page, it can also be changed but I think, in its current state, this is representative of the phenomenon.--BlackJack92 (talk) 09:05, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Everyone seems to unanimously agree that they should be merged, so that can definitely be done without a formal vote. Drag panic currently has the most support, so that is the logical target for now while we continue to discuss possible alternative titles for the article. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 02:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

It's only been a few days, please let's give it the normal amount of time to get wider consensus before taking action. There is no rush. CT55555(talk) 02:48, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Support merge, obviously duplicative topics. Reywas92^Talk 02:50, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• Can someone move forward with a merge so editors can focus on a single entry, please? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Done--BlackJack92 (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Move to "Criticism of drag"

Requested move 16 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 08:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

---

Drag Panic → Criticism of drag – As per WP:COMMONNAME and the relevancy of the title. Google shows 34 600 000 results for "criticism of drag" as opposed to 17 600 000 for "drag panic", and the article is mainly about various groups that have criticized drag in the past, which several sources have called drag panic, so "Criticism of drag" is a more suitable name. Félix An (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support as per reasons above. Félix An (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that "criticism of drag" might not just be about this. In fact this is the first hit (for me) [[1]], which is about feminism, not child protection, in fact most of the first few hits seem to be about that. Slatersteven (talk) 12:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Recently 2022 drag performance protests was merged into this article. I think a descriptive title along those lines is preferable to the uncommon expression "Drag Panic". I would support a move to 2022–2023 drag performance protests, as the controversy is still ongoing. Cheers, gnu57 12:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose "Criticism of drag", as that is overly broad for the subject at hand. I've already said my piece about "Drag panic" in an above section, I think it's mostly fine. As for the above suggestion of "2022–2023 drag performance protests", if we were to go in that direction I would say drop the word performance from it. --Pokelova (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

  Also this article says it started in 2019. Slatersteven (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The page speaks of a moral panic (it illustrates all the typical elements that are part of it) while the "criticism of drag" gives the idea of something generic as if it were an aggregator of generic critical points on the issue.--BlackJack92 (talk) 13:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Not many people are calling it the "criticism of drag" and the article's name should be Drag panic and not Drag Panic. — JuanGLP (talk + contribs) 14:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. We will rename this article "Criticism of drag" the same day we rename the article Antisemitism to "Criticism of Jews", i.e. never. Why not? Let's break it down. This is not about "criticism". To call it "criticism" is to accept the cynical and dishonest framing of the abusers at face value. Surely we are smarter than that? This article is about the specific moral panic. Actual criticism of drag probably does exist but that would be a completely different topic and can be covered elsewhere to whatever extent is warranted. Other names suggested also seem deficient because "protests" does not cover the extent of the topic. There is a lot more to this than protests. There is the legislation and pseudo-legislation, the threats and the terrorism. I think the current title is reasonable but maybe some improvement is possible. Quite possibly JuanGLP is correct about the capitalisation? I don't want to cut the discussion off but what we can't even consider is any suggested euphemistic title that disguises what the subject of this article actually is. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Drag Panic → Drag panic

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 06:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

---

Drag Panic → Drag panic

I created this page calling it "Drag panic" but it was moved to "Drag Panic". I don't see the reason for the capital letter (as if we were talking about a name) and consequently I request that it be reverted to the previous name. BlackJack92 (talk) 13:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support. as per reasons above.--BlackJack92 (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. — JuanGLP (talk/contribs) 14:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support. No caps needed. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support the technicality per WP:TITLEFORMAT, although not 100% sure it is the correct WP:COMMONNAME. --woodensuperman 15:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Obviously. WP:TITLEFORMAT. ChocolateAvian (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support. It's a minor thing but worth doing. --DanielRigal (talk) 02:05, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Drag Isn't Dangerous" telethon

• https://ew.com/tv/rupauls-drag-race-winners-unite-drag-isnt-dangerous-telethon/
• https://www.out.com/drag/drag-isnt-dangerous-telethon

---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Another editor has created Drag Isn't Dangerous ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:02, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Inserted.--BlackJack92 (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Vyyyvu (article contribs). Peer reviewers: AzeiahMacapagal.

— Assignment last updated by Momlife5 (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lindaesco21 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Cristinayasmine.

— Assignment last updated by Bbalicia (talk) 00:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Transparency

Does this article actually fail to mention that sexualized drag shows where kids are present do exist? There are several videos that explicitly show this. Or even where the kids themselves are dressed as drag queens in inappropriate fashions. 142.186.88.120 (talk) 02:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Gurl... ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It does indeed exist, here is one example: https://www.libsoftiktok.com/p/watch-drag-queen-appears-to-perform?sd=pf

While Wikipedia may not allow any sources that discuss these events, can we at least acknowledge they do exist and we should be at least trying to find reliable source(s)? 142.186.88.120 (talk) 19:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Come back when you're ready to share those reliable sources. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:06, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

libs of tiktok is not a reliable source. Obelus1 (talk) 15:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

The source in this instance is the video footage itself, not the website hosting it. Smarten up. 82.38.214.252 (talk) 07:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Read wp:rs, and wp:sps. Slatersteven (talk) 08:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Here's a WP:RS, the CBC, that mentioned that sexualized drag shows with kids present exist: https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/is-it-ok-for-your-kids-to-watch-or-take-part-in-drag-performances

"Yule says some adult drag shows and communities might have more “flirty” or sexual performances, but parents can ensure their children are attending age-appropriate events. If there are song lyrics or dance moves that a parent is uncomfortable with, it’s important to have a conversation."

And CBS: https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/texas-senate-votes-limit-childrens-access-to-drag-shows/

Félix An (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

These sources do not show that there is a widespread issue of age-inappropriate drag performances targeted at children.

The first source says, 'The [drag] events that are geared toward children and teens tend to be very positive — not hyper-sexualized — and very appropriate...'

Also: 'Monitoring children’s activities is not specific to drag, she adds. It would be the same with music, movies, television shows and online content — she says parents should screen for appropriate material with anything their children enjoy.'

So this isn't something specific to drag.

The second source does report on a lawmaker's *opinion* of drag, but doesn't verify that opinion as a fact. It reports on a law that was passed, including some of the wording of that law, but not how many (if any) incidents led to the law being passed or whether they were indeed sexualising children.

As it stands, this page already points out that several American politicians and commentators have claimed there is an issue, and this article merely corroborates that the existing wording is enough. It doesn't suggest that additional/new wording is needed. Lewisguile (talk) 11:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The very existence of this article is biased

This article assumes, in a way that is not in any way neutral, that any concerns about drag and the exposure of drag to children are exclusively moral panic, and not valid in any way, shape, or form.

I must repeat, this is NOT politically neutral. The very existence of this article is predicated upon presumptions that are disagreed upon fiercly. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 06:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree as well, which is why I proposed moving the article to “Criticism of drag”. Unfortunately, the other editors didn’t agree to move it at the time. You can try starting a move discussion again and see if the opinions have changed. Félix An (talk) 06:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be pushing a very specific POV, given your recent edits. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I am rejecting a very specific POV, which seems to be seeping like sludge off the words of a large number of articles here. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 17:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, it is about the false concerns spread by people, Thre is no recent evidence Drag is more of a threat to children than, say, being a crush worker (in fact given the number of arrests recently, a lot less evidence). Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

While there is a lack of evidence, a lack of evidence does not prove the contrary, especially in a case like this where there simply aren't studies investigating the psychological effects of drag on children, so no evidence to the contrary, as well.

You are simply making an unsubstantiated claim based on a worldview that is not universally shared. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 17:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

NO, I am pointing out to say "X is not true" we need evidence (presented by RS) that X is not true, not your opinion its not true. And I am not talking about the psychological effects of Drag, but actually grooming leading to sexual abuse. Slatersteven (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You don't understand; This article assumes that "X is not true," i.e. that exposure to drag has no harmful effects on children.

You need affirmative proof to the contrary to say that "X is not true" in an encyclopedia, which does not exist in this case. The burden of proof is on this article, not on me or anyone else.

Does exposure to drag has a significant negative impact on kids? Probably not. But nobody has the clear proof to the contrary necessary to justify this article calling it objectively false. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 18:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No we say that " is a moral panic that stems from the belief that drag, especially when exposed to minors, can be harmful, due to its perception as sexual in nature", there is no proof this is not true. There is no proof it is "=attempts by the LGBTQ+ community to sexualize or recruit children." som we are reflecting what the sources say, that there is no evidence any of this is true. Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

"'. . . is a moral panic that stems from the belief that drag, especially when exposed to minors, can be harmful, due to its perception as sexual in nature', there is no proof this is not true."

Yes, there is no conclusive proof that drag has negative effects on minors. There is also no proof that says that drag isn't bad for minors. Thus, this article should not take a position either way. However, by labelling it a "moral panic" and calling protesters of drag "extremist," the article heavily implies that they are objectively wrong and is explicitly politically biased, especially when even centre-left publications sometimes voice objections (source: https://www.newsweek.com/drag-never-appropriate-kids-opinion-1807055)

And I am not talking about purported attempts to sexualize and recruit children, which is a much more serious and far-fetched allegation that is being improperly conflated with the general idea that drag, which is generally considered sexual, could be harmful to children.

This entire article is thus biased, and no amount of mental gymnastics on your part will fix that. Thus, the article should be deleted entirely. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 19:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, and no that there is no evidence it does affect them, hence it is an accusation without proof, which is what we say. Slatersteven (talk) 20:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, you say that it is hysteria, that it is an accusation that is false. An accusation that is without proof going up against a defense with no proof is called subjectivity. Now stop making the subjective appear objective. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 20:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I am out with a no change supported. Slatersteven (talk) 20:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I also do not support a change. The existence of this article is not, in itself, political or biased. It reflects RS on the subject at hand, passes the test for notability, and is written according to Wikipedia standards of neutrality and POV.

I am open to hearing specific suggestions for specific wording changes, but otherwise do not agree the article should be deleted. Even if it were biased, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be deleted; it just means we should obtain consensus on what changes are needed to make it neutral. Lewisguile (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I Concede that the article should remain. Specific wording changes are necessary, though. The alternate term "drag hysteria" should be removed, for example, protestors should be termed "provocateurs" rather than "extremists,' and, most significantly, the title should be changed, as was suggested by multiple people, to something more neutral such as "Opposition to Drag" or "Anti-drag movement." JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 15:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm pleased to see there is a consensus to keep the article. I'm happy to discuss language use and naming.

Re: drag hysteria

I did a search for "hysteria" in the article, and besides the references, it only appears as the alternate name for drag panic itself in the opening. To me, that doesn't read as an attack on anyone or Wikipedia calling people who oppose drag hysterical; it's just an outlining of the facts. If that term is used by RS, it's not biased or NPOV to include it.

If there are some reliable sources which question the terminology, indicating that there's a wider debate about it, then it might be relevant to include that fact in a terminology section or a criticisms section.

Re: extremists

I also searched for "extremists" and found it in two places besides the references.

In the UK section, "extremists" is used to summarise the view of the RS cited. The overview of the ISD report linked there says, "Anti-vaxxers, white nationalist groups, influential conspiracy theorists and 'child protection' advocates have at times formed an uneasy – even fractious – coalition of groups opposing all-ages drag events. The driving force behind these protests is a mix of far-right groups and COVID-19 conspiracists." Far-right and white nationalist groups would generally be considered extremists.

On p.7, the report itself says, "While it is an ideology that has manifested in many different forms, contemporary interpretations are frequently linked to conspiratorial and extremist beliefs." The article seems to be an accurate summation of what is written in the RS.

In the section on France, the link (in French), says "mouvements extrémistes". Extremists is therefore a fair interpretation and summary of that description as well.

I think we should leave "extremists" as it is, although the second reference could be better summarised as "extremist movements" so I will make that change myself.

Re: the title

I am aware there has previously been a consensus to merge this and another article (2022 drag performance protests) which had a slightly unclear and quite narrow focus. This may have resulted in the subject matter being broadened somewhat. There has also been another discussion about renaming it "anti-drag movement" which was, at the time, resolved due to this appearing to be the common name and a more specific name for a more specific set of circumstances.

"Drag panic" seems to me based on the older terms "gay panic" and "Satanic panic". These terms are still in use and are used in the Wikipedia titles for the relevant pages. The name itself isn't NPOV if it's the term used by experts.

I concur with the prior consensus that "Opposition to drag" is too generic and would broaden this article to cover lots of different subjects. That risks making it a WP:COATRACK. "Anti-drag movement" is certainly better than "Opposition to drag" but it is still less specific than "drag panic", and it is also not the common name for the phenomenon. The subject of the article seems to be that it is about anti-drag protests caused by what experts call a "moral panic". It is not just "opposition" or "protests". Therefore, "drag panic" seems the best name to me. Lewisguile (talk) 17:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually I spoke it too soon (Special:Diff/1231139176 about ok to anti-drag movement suggestion if there is a WP:REQUESTMOVE initiated. That Request-Move discussion have not started yet.

Also "Criticism of drag" WP:REQUESTMOVE / title rename to Criticism of drag just failed last month

my take about that Criticism of drag failed motion is this article is about events, about series of incidents & protests against any performances by drag queens...criticism of drag, to me, seemed like a topical subject, (like Criticisms of communist regimes) and not about events (eg Weiquan movement). So Criticism of drag is not OK. --- Cat12zu3 (talk) 18:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh I agreed with Lewisguile that opposition to drag is too broad --- Cat12zu3 (talk) 18:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, there is a subtle difference between "criticism of drag" and whatever we call "a moral panic about drag that is leading to protests". I have read through the article again, and every story listed is connected in some way to violence, threats or extremist groups (i.e., white nationalists, neo-Nazis, etc).

At the very least, any new title needs to be specific enough to show that experts believe there is a moral panic, that it targets drag queens and LGBTQ+ people, and that it involves threats of violence from extremist groups. If we can't do that, then I think WP:COMMONNAME is enough to keep it as it is. Lewisguile (talk) 19:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME & WP:PRIMARYTOPIC - WP:COMMONNAME...I forgot this one (and had came through these before)...

A web search came up more for Drag Panic than Anti-drag movement, especially Google Scholar too.

Secondly, Drag Panic had been mentioned in academic journals that are peer reviewed. Drag Panic is in the same vein as Gay panic or the very root Moral panic, all 3 topics are in peer-reviewed academic journals...Lewisguile elaborated much more better than me.

At this moment, having awared of WP:COMMONNAME & for wiki title WP:PRIMARYTOPIC / WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY - Drag Panic is better and more commonly used than anti-drag movement. --- Cat12zu3 (talk) 01:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a broad consensus that, even if the title isn't perfect or people don't like it, it's the most accurate and relevant we have so far.

Most of the historic opposition to the title revolves around whether the article is broader than the term "drag panic" suggests. But the article has been edited substantially since then, and it feels more on topic and more direct than it was, so that critique no longer really applies, either. Lewisguile (talk) 11:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)