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Talk:Development of the World Chess Championship

Latest comment: 4 years ago by Adpete in topic Proposal to turn this into a redirect to World Chess Championship
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Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

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Done by Bubba73 - thanks Bubba73! --Philcha (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)Reply

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Why was there a Championship in 2013?

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Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

First time I've ever done this, so sorry if I screw anything up...

The article says:

"FIDE has announced that after that, there will be a championship cycle every two years, beginning with the World Chess Championship 2012."

Except the very next year Vishy had to defend against Magnus? Why? Then in 2014 (that makes WC three years in a row) Magnus had to defend, and then back to the quoted 2 year cycle. Seems 2013 was just thrown in there for no obvious reason? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.134.86.216 (talk) 02:22, 19 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

it says "Following the controversies surrounding his 1921 match against Lasker" Um, what exactly was controversial about the match? It might be nice to say a little something about it. If the "controversies" refer to the years long negotiations to finally play match, might be nice to make that more clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warblerab295 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Why does this article exist?

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Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

This article is too similar in content to World Chess Championship. It might have a place if it stopped at our soon after 1886, or perhaps up WWII, but at the very least all material after 1948 should be removed because it is just duplicating World Chess Championship. I believe the original idea was a more detailed article on the development of a world championship, but it seems that has not really eventuated. Adpete (talk) 12:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

See Talk:World Chess Championship/Archive_2#Merge with Development of the World Chess Championship where I and some others supported a merge in 2008. The article creator asserted that the material doesn't fit in the main article but I never understood a single reason why that was or could be true. Unfortunately the originator of this article is no longer with us, and I let it go because I did not feel good about resumption of an argument with someone whose participation in any discussion would be significantly hampered on account of being dead. A long time has passed, but I still support a merge. Actually it's possible that the earlier merge proposer wanted World Chess Championship to be merged into this article, but the correct direction is to merge this article into that one. I think I also complained in 2008 about non-chronological presentation in this article. Although it was defended, I still reject it categorically and insist that hundred year histories should almost always be done chronologically, and this article is no exception. Quale (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Oh User:Philcha died? That's sad, I completely missed that he died in 2012. I feel like I get to know other the chess editors a little bit, like yourself, Philcha and a number of others over the years. Anyway, Philcha did the original split in 2008, see Talk:World_Chess_Championship/Archive_2#Development_of_World_Chess_Championship. But looking at this Development of the World Chess Championship, there really isn't THAT much which isn't in World Chess Championship. Going through the sections of Development of the World Chess Championship:
  1. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#Financing_of_championship_contests is pretty well duplicated at World_Chess_Championship#Financing
  2. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#Early_uses_of_"World_Champion" is duplicated (and expanded) at World_Chess_Championship#Unofficial_champions_(pre-1886)
  3. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#The_reign_of_Wilhelm_Steinitz seems to be copied, more less verbatim, at World_Chess_Championship#The_reign_of_Wilhelm_Steinitz. Perhaps footnote 17 could be moved to the WCC article.
  4. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#The_Lasker_controversies is all incorporated into World_Chess_Championship#Lasker_(1894–1921)
  5. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#Capablanca's_attempts_to_produce_agreed_rules is all incorporated into World_Chess_Championship#Capablanca,_Alekhine_and_Euwe_(1921–1946)
  6. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#FIDE,_Euwe_and_AVRO is copied at World_Chess_Championship#FIDE,_Euwe_and_AVRO
  7. Development_of_the_World_Chess_Championship#Birth_of_FIDE's_World_Championship_cycle is copied and expanded at World_Chess_Championship#Birth_of_FIDE's_World_Championship_cycle_(1946–1948)
  8. onwards: There is nothing special in this article post 1948.
So I conclude that someone has already incorporated ALL of this article into World_Chess_Championship, and therefore there is no reason for this article to exist. (Except the odd thing here or there, like footnote 17). We could go through the formal request-for-merge proposal, but I am tempted to treat this as an uncontroversial merge and just turn this article into a redirect (EDIT: after a few days), unless someone can give a good reason not to. Adpete (talk) 02:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
On further reflection, I don't think that footnote 17 should be copied over; I can see why it was removed from the WCC article. It is a rather selective list (towards sources which date Steinitz' reign from 1866) - the majority of books on my shelf date it from 1886. It would be good to copy to the Talk page though. Other than that, I'm still not seeing anything useful that isn't in the WCC article. Adpete (talk) 06:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Proposal to turn this into a redirect to World Chess Championship

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Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

(For purposes of this note, DWCC refers to Development of the World Chess Championship and WCC refers to World Chess Championship). I propose to turn DWCC into a redirect to WCC because:

  1. The DWCC article originally arose in 2008 after User:Philcha had some disagreements with other editors over the content of WCC. See Talk:World_Chess_Championship/Archive_1#Pre-FIDE and later sections in Archive 1 for the issues; and then Talk:World_Chess_Championship/Archive_2#Development_of_World_Chess_Championship for when the DWCC article was created. As far as I can tell, Philcha did most of the work on DWCC.
  2. Sadly User:Philcha died in 2012.
  3. Somewhere along the way, someone (I am not sure if it was Philcha or someone else) merged all the content from DWCC into WCC anyway. See the previous section, where I go into detail about this, and conclude that there is nothing of any substance in DWCC which is not also in WCC.
  4. Therefore this article (DWCC) serves no useful purpose, and should be turned into a redirect to WCC.
  5. Since only one other editor seemed to see the discussion in the previous section, I will raise this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chess just to be sure. If there are no objections, I will turn this article (DWCC) into a redirect in a few days.

Adpete (talk) 12:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I had not seen DWCC until now. It looks like a reasonably competent execution of an idea that, unfortunately, is not very compelling. Historically, "development" starts nearly from scratch with each world championship -- new negotiations, new terms, new financing, new competitors -- and so there is not sufficient continuity to justify a historical overview. Even the advent of FIDE as an organizing body did not change this. I don't think there are comparable articles for other major sports. But, can you make this change w/o being an admin? Bruce leverett (talk) 17:48, 3 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
I basically agree with your assessment. In answer to your last question, no it does not require an admin. I am just giving a few days to be sure there is consensus. I have been on the receiving end of this (I create a new article, another editor unilaterally turns it back into a redirect, throwing away all my work) and it isn't nice. Adpete (talk) 00:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

OK, there were no dissenting opinions after 7 days, so I have done the change; article is now a redirect. Adpete (talk) 06:52, 8 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

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