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Talk:Daron Acemoglu

Latest comment: 18 days ago by TheJoyfulTentmaker in topic Turkish or Armenian American?
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Good articleDaron Acemoglu has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 27, 2018Good article nomineeListed
In the newsA news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on October 15, 2024.
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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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GA Review

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Latest comment: 6 years ago33 comments2 people in discussion
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Daron Acemoglu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MX (talk · contribs) 01:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Review

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  Doing... Hello. I'll be reviewing this article. My initial observation is that this article is ripe for promotion. I'll go through each section and post here if there are any issues. I'll also be checking the sources to see if they are reliable. If possible, I'll go into them to see if the text is supported correctly. Stay put and thanks for waiting! MX (✉ • ✎) 01:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Part 1

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Overall comments: This is a great article as it stands. My biggest concern from Part 1 of the review is not the grammatical correction. Rather, it is the overuse of quotes, especially in the Views section. Per WP:QUOTE, editors are generally encouraged to write stuff in their own words. I would like to see a reduction of quotes before this review passes. Below are my concerns for Part 1; stay put for Part 2 (which will include source review, copyright analysis, etc.) MX (✉ • ✎) 20:29, 4 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Life

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  • was born in Istanbul, Turkey to Armenian parents – Please add DOB with a source too, assuming none of the sources citing this sentence already have the DOB somewhere. The DOB in the infobox is technically unsourced as it stands.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 21:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • a well-known commercial lawyer and lecturer – "well-known" is a WP:WEASEL word. Please revise.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 21:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
"The subject of the red link may be covered on another edition of Wikipedia. If such an article meets the English-language Wikipedia criteria and you are able to translate, then follow the procedures at Wikipedia:Translation; if not, {{underline}use a link to the article in the other edition of Wikipedia instead of or next to a red link}}. Such links can be made manually or by using the interlanguage link template [[{{{1}}}]] []."
  • a professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at MIT – spell out MIT's name and link it. Use "MIT" moving forward.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 21:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Academic career

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  • Acemoglu was lecturer in economics at the London School of Economics (LSE) – Use LSE only, since you already used it in the previous section.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 09:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • He began lecturing at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in 1993 – Use MIT only, per previous comments.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 09:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Acemoglu was lecturer in economics – "was a lecturer"
  Done----Երևանցի talk 09:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • In 2014 he made $841,380 ... – fix amount to US$841,380 per MOS:CURRENCY.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 09:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • editor of Econometrica, an influential academic journal published – remove "influential" per WP:WEASEL. You can rephrase it or remove it.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 09:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • He has made significant contribution to the labor economics field – Does the source only assert or explain them? "Significant" may be on the eyes of the beholder, and pushing for WP:WEASEL. Also, please add an "s": "He has made significant contributions ..."
  Done----Երևանցի talk 10:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Publications

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  • argued that the its substantive contribution is the theoretical fusion – Please fix this sentence.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 08:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • ideas of Barry Weingast and Douglass North which argued that – "... North, who argued that..."
  Done----Երևանցի talk 08:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Edward Glaeser described it "enormously significant" – ... "described it as 'enormously significant' ..."
It's not a quote within a quote.----Երևանցի talk 08:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • In his best known book, Why Nations Fail (2012) – How do we know it is the best-known book? Was it the best-selling one?
  Done----Երևանցի talk 10:04, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  Done----Երևանցի talk 08:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  Done----Երևանցի talk 08:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Views

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  • Paul Abrams noted that Why Nations Fail has been - remove link from Why Nations Fail per WP:OVERLINK. Keep an eye on other articles you linked multiple times (excluding lead) in case I missed more.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 10:14, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Acemoglu's and Robinson's long-time collaborator Simon Johnson suggests – Ditto with Johnson.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 10:14, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • for the survival of the US as we know it. – Sounds uneyclopedic. Please rephrase.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 10:14, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • General comments: I personally think there is an over-use of quotes here and in the rest of the View sections, per our MOS:QUOTE policy. Please paraphrase most of them and only keep what you think might be lost in paraphrasing. Long quotations are generally not encouraged. I will need to go back once you've done this to check for grammar corrections since I decided to skip this part altogether until the issue is resolved.
  Doing...----Երևանցի talk 10:14, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Recognition

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  • According to data collected by IDEAS/RePEc – Why not spell out to "Research Papers in Economics"?

  Done----Երևանցի talk 18:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

  • and his long-time collaborator James A. Robinson as – Remove link from Robinson per WP:OVERLINK.

  Done----Երևանցի talk 18:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Awards

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  • [Citaiton needed] – There is a [Citaiton needed] tag I added.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 18:10, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
I'll try to complete it by tomorrow. ----Երևանցի talk 22:16, 21 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
@MX: I've addressed most of the issues. Could you please respond to them. I won't be active for another 3 days. ----Երևանցի talk 19:28, 24 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Yerevantsi: Quotes look good now. We can address the infobox section when you're back. Enjoy your weekend. MX (✉ • ✎) 19:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Yerevantsi: Hi, I hope you had a great weekend. Let's get the infobox section addressed before the end of the week. Cheers, MX (✉ • ✎) 19:15, 27 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Part 2

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  • Copyright checkup – There are high similarities between the sources and the text, but these matches are best of the heavy dependence on quotes, per Earwig's Copyvio Detector. This will be addressed independently in Part 1.

Infobox

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  • Infobox – Overall this is a great part of the article. Useful information is found that is easy for readers to find. Per WP:INFOBOXCITE, however, we highly advise editors to remove citations from the infobox and cite the information elsewhere in the article. Would you be able to do that? This prevents clogging sources, especially as the infobox grows.
  Done----Երևանցի talk 20:09, 27 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Needing sources

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  • He has authored hundreds of papers, – Maybe I missed it somewhere, but is the "hundreds" mentioned somewhere else in the article with an appropriate source?
  Done I mentioned it in the "Academic career" section with a reference.----Երևանցի talk 11:06, 23 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Source-and-text integrity – Checked multiple sources and found no issue here. Assuming good faith for the rest of the sources I did not check and for foreign-language ones too.

Conclusion

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Everything was addressed! Article passes. MX (✉ • ✎) 20:33, 27 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Poor GA

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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

How is this a GA? It is not really an article about Daron Acemoglu, more like "Daron Acemoglu's political views." Three-quarters of it is about his personal political views and less than one-quarter is about his actual career and life's work. He has published five books and hundreds of journal articles, yet most of this content is from random news articles and interviews. Looking at the GA criteria, it seems to fail at least numbers three and four. Can I challenge this listing? Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

He should also be fluent in French

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Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Daron is a graduate of Galatasaray High School, which teaches French and has almost all of subjects given in French. I believe he also co-authored a book in French titled "Introduction à l'économie". So I ask the question, should we also add "French" to languages that he can speak fluently in "Life" section?Emre Dokur (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Turkish or Armenian American?

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Latest comment: 18 days ago19 comments4 people in discussion

In Wikipedia "Armenian American" is used to describe somebody of Armenian descent, as almost nobody designated as such is born on the territory of independent Armenian state, but is rather of Armenian descent. Daron Acemoglu is completely of Armenian descent, and, therefore, could be called "Armenian American" as well. I see no legitimate reason to include "Turkish American", but exclude "Armenian American". Shouldn't be the wiki section for Armenian Americans completely empty? Therefore, I propose to either keep both "Turkish American" and "Armenian American", or just omit this part whatsoever. I am more inclined to the first part Athoremmes (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Fixed 207.161.210.19 (talk) 22:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Support for including Armenian ethnicity in the lead: I know the MOS does not recommend including ethnicity in the lead, but this is a good case for an exception, similar to Pervin Chakar or Komitas. His ethnicity has received significant coverage, and even one of the official Nobel Prize interviews included a question about it. - TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 05:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TheJoyfulTentmaker: While his ethnicity has received significant coverage, MOS:ETHNICITY says "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." Given the subject's notability does not rely on his ethnicity, there's no reason it should be in the lead. His notability relies on his work in economics and awards for that. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 15:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Then how can we use "Turkish American" if it designates an ancestry within the USA? Therefore, we should use just "American" and omit the other part whatsoever. It is also notable, since it is a first time a turk of Armenian descent has such award and it already caused some discussion in the media. Therefore, I am reverting it to OG until somebody mentions how can we frame it or till we reach the general consensus Athoremmes (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Greens vs. Blacks My reading of the MOS is this:
  • If relevant to notability: include
  • If not relevant to notability: generally don't include
So it is not a hard rule. Here, it does not feel right if we exclude it, per @Athoremmes and partly due to NPOV, which requires a longer discussion. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
But it isn't relevant to the notability because he'd be notable with or without that ethnicity. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Again, generally means, even if the notability is not related to the ethnicity, it can still be used in the lead in some cases. See this RfC for instance, about regional identities. Being Armenian in Turkey is similar in some sense to having a Spanish regional identity, which also indicates ethnicity. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 23:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If the ethnicity isn't related to notability, then there's no reason to put it in the lead. The lead is for a summarization of important, notable points. Most every single person on earth is a blend of ethnicities, yet we so rarely include that in the lead because it's not notable and clutters the intro. It belongs in the "early life" section. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 13:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
And this is this rare case we should include it, because, like Missak Manouchian, Daron Acemoglu is also notable as an example of Armenian in Turkish community going through discrimination and his Armenian experienced shaped his life in Turkey Athoremmes (talk) 16:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Can you articulate why you think that should be in the lead vs. the "early life" section? Everyone's past has shaped them. I still haven't heard a cogent argument for why his ethnicity is lead-worthy and would override the MOS. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 22:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is not an override, we are complying with the manual. It is simply that, in our judgement, this case is comparable to the exceptions mentioned in footnotes [a] and [b] of MOS:ETHNICITY. The full arguments would really require a longer discussion, probably as long as the RfC that is associated with footnote [b]. But briefly, I believe the ethnicity information for groups such as Armenians (in Turkey and the Ottoman Empire), Kurds (in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria), Basques and Catalans (in Spain and France) and Palestinians (in Israel and Lebanon) could be included in the lead if the subject self-identifies and the sources generally use it. It can be considered to be comparable and complementary to the nationality information in such cases. Also, if you read the intro of the Turkish Americans article, it describes them to be ethnic Turks. The readers can make similar assumptions here if we omit the ethnicity. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 02:36, 19 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Remove. MOS:ETHNICITY is clear on this, and just because other stuff exists doesn't mean this article needs ethnicity mentioned in the lead as well. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 15:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I kindly disagree, and those examples are not "other stuff". Anyone familiar with the context would agree that mentioning their ethnicity in the lead is the right way for those two examples. To put it in another way regarding the MOS, the following two do not mean the same thing:
    • Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.
    • Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.
    We have the first bullet in the guideline, but you are reading it as if it is the second bullet. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 19:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The other examples are the definition of "other stuff" because they're, well, other stuff. You can find an example of almost any kind of LEAD on WP; that doesn't mean it's adhering to MOS. (So that we're not having the same convo on two threads re: ethnicity notability, I've responded beneath your post on your thread above. Just responded about the otherstuff thing here.) --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 21:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Well, we have the following here:
    • Wording. Wording in sense of “He is Turkish American” will be incomplete, because he is equally Armenian American as well. So it should be either completely excluded or mention this part.
    • On a page of Missak Manouchian his ethnicity is irrelevant as well in his accomplishments, and yet it is still mentioned due to the impact of Armenian ethnicity on his daily life. Same with Acemoglu, who studied in Armenian school, faced discrimination because of that and even advised Armenia on that basis.
    • Most Armenian Americans are born outside of any Armenian state, should then the category be abolished whatsoever?
    Athoremmes (talk) 21:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
    For your second bullet, again, review other stuff exists. For your third, see red herring. No one is discussing the category here. If you want to, there's a talk page on that category for that. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
    • I have described to you why it is done there, which is the same reason as for why it should be done there
    • This is the topic we are discussing here, the category of Armenian Americans exists because it is equivalent to the category of “Turkish Americans” and stating that it is not and using it there is contradictory and biasedAthoremmes (talk) 16:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
      No, we are discussing the subject of this article. We are not discussing the WP cat for Armenian Americans. That belongs in an entirely different discussion, and if that's something you'd like to open on the Armenian American talk page I encourage you to do so. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 22:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Name of the article

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Latest comment: 19 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Shouldn't the title of the article be "Daron Acemoğlu" instead of "Daron Acemoglu"? Pedian4169 (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

He uses this name in his professional life (including his books), so the title should be unchanged. The official Turkish name with accents is already included at the start of the article. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 20:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
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