Talk:Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground

Note

I doubt this qualifies as a notable enough mention to warrant an entry in the article, but this song is featured in The West Wing episode "The Warfare of Genghis Khan" and is used to show Josh Lyman how important space exploration can be. Staxringold _talk^contribs 23:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I've seen this reference, uncited of course, but I'm not quite sure how to integrate it into the article. What does it say about the song or Blind Willie Johnson that is not already said? --Moni3 (talk) 23:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Expression of Human Loneliness

I have read the NYT article that is cited. It does not mention Carl Sagan at all. The words are those of the article's writer, Nicole Krauss. However, even if they were the words of Carl Sagan, he is not an authority on music (and thus his opinion is not notable), and, in addition to that, the article fails to state that it is his opinion, asserting it as a universal truth, which is obviously unacceptable. Make your counterarguments here; To argue through edits back and forth would violate the 3RR. If I don't get any responses in 24 hours (you guys seem to be pretty active), I'm removing the piece, and if it is placed back after that, I'm calling in an admin to look at this. Thanks. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 15:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the point. Sagan and his team chose the record for the Voyager Interstellar Record. Why they chose it is very notable. Sagan saw it as the human expression of loneliness, homelessness, alienation, and poverty. All Blues music represents loneliness. --Moni3 (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

You're getting way too into your own point of view with this. Wikipedia is for objective content that is citable by outside sources only. Nothing else. The best you can include would be something along the lines of detailing briefly what Sagan's team was doing with what they chose to include for the Voyager Interstellar Record, stating that Sagan felt that it represented those things, but ONLY if you actually have a source that has Sagan stating that. The NYT article does not do so, and so it cannot be stated here. Either find a source for the claim, or it doesn't belong in the article. I'm going to reword the claim now to reflect what you're claiming it is supposed to be about, placing a tag to mark it as needing citation. When you find a reliable source for it, replace it with that citation. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The source is notable, and there is nothing to contradict what it says. It is not for you to question the source without providing an alternate source that offers a different explanation. Whether Sagan is quoted or not is irrelevant. The source is notable and nothing, other than your opinion, contradicts what the source says. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

That's simply untrue. The only thing the source says is that the writer of the article, Nicole Krauss, who is not an authority on the subject (and therefore not citable) says that it exemplifies human loneliness. Furthermore, no, there is not any Wikipedia guideline that states that a user must provide an alternate source when one source is not suitable! I'm through dealing with this. I'm requesting to have an admin review this discussion. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 16:46, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Good gracious. Mountain out of a molehill much? --Moni3 (talk) 17:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

RfC on the ending of the introductory paragraph

The introductory paragraph ends by stating the following:

"It has the distinction of being one of 27 samples of music included on the Voyager Golden Record, launched into space in 1977 to represent the diversity of life on Earth. "Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground" was chosen as the human expression of loneliness."

The source cited only has the article's writer presenting that opinion with no reference to the team ever saying such. The argument is over whether or not she is an authority to make this claim and whether she can be cited for this claim (for the purposes of this article). Discussion above. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Would it assuage your sensitive nature to cite this with the Journal of Applied Communication Research in which Sagan's team is quoted as saying why the song was included? Or is this headed to dispute resolution because we don't have enough to do in real life? --Moni3 (talk) 18:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that would meet standards. There's no reason to make personal attacks. I made an edit that removed material that did not meet standards, giving reasons, but you argued otherwise. I obviously have no problem if it has a valid source. This is what RfCs are for (when users can't resolve disputes even after discussion). If you add said source (and it actually says what you claim), then I'll remove the RfC. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 18:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

If is actually says what I claim? It's quoted in the article. Did you even read it?

There's no reason for this RfC either. Nor is there any reason to remove the NYT article. The only reason I'm suggesting this is to resolve this uber-stupid dispute. --Moni3 (talk) 18:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I had not read the article (I still have not). I'm not going on a manhunt for a source you already have. If you already had the source, you could have just linked to it. No changes had been made to the article when I posted that message, so I couldn't check the source via edits either. Also, the RfC is not without reason; it was placed exactly for the intended purposes of RfCs: to resolve a dispute between users when they cannot reach consensus. The NYT article is still not needed as it adds nothing. If we're making the claim that it was included for a particular reason and we have a source with Sagan's team saying just that, then it adds nothing to also provide a source to a reporter saying "I agree with what the team said". Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 18:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Merge with DWTN, CWTG

The DWTN page reads like a biography of Johnson. The Johnson page is 1/3 info about DWTN. So... merge or swap info?--Atlantictire (talk) 00:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Reverts

Atlantictire, I can appreciate you spent time making these edits, but they were not good edits. By purging Blind Willie Johnson's article of the chunk of text and not paying attention to this article, you inserted information that was already covered (the information about Ry Cooder was duplicated, repeated information one sentence above about the Voyager Golden Record), was not cited, or cited to an unworkable link.

You also split paragraphs that were more readable, cohesive, and well-written for no reason. You created sections where none needed to be created. This article was quite fine really, but you did what I feared you would. You added the purged information from Johnson's article without reading about his life. Just a quick night's work, right?

Blind Willie Johnson deserves a better article. It's there where you should be doing the work. Go to the library, read about his life, use the best sources you can find and improve it. Spend some time rewriting his. --Moni3 (talk) 03:00, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

A full quarter of the information on the Blind Willie Johnson bio page was "trivia" about that song. It seemed more appropriate to put the info that was very specific to the song on the song's page.

Moni3 seems to think including info about Wim Wenders, Ry Cooder and other musicians who have been instrumental in keeping the public interested in Blind Willie Johnson's music and this song specifically are "not good edits".

So let's start with Wenders. This is the guy who has won a Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival and a Palme d'Or (for Paris, Texas--a movie whose soundtrack is based on "Dark was the Night, Cold was the Ground") and a Best Director prize at the Cannes Film Festival. He directed a little movie called Wings of Desire and a major blues documentary called The Soul of a Man (which, by the way, heavily emphasizes Johnson). Critics think he's kind of a big deal and they seem to agree Paris, Texas is a pretty important film:

• Roger Ebert
• Vincent Canby of the New York Times

It's also part of the Criterion Collection, whose prestige Moni3 may not understand (see: Criterion Collection: Paris, Texas). Read their synopsis and you'll find out the film inspired U2's The Joshua Tree and was loved by no less than Kurt Cobain.

Ry Cooder is listed as Rolling Stone Magazine's #8 guitarist of all time. He's a major composer and performer who got his start playing in Captain Beefheart's band. See there he is credited on Safe as Milk.

Other non-notable facts that gunk up the article pertain to Jack White (Rolling Stone's #17 Greatest Guitarist of All Time), the Kronos Quartet, Pier Paolo Pasolini (he's kinda important too) and The Times.

The ways in which I split the article were pretty logical and standard for wikipedia. Info on like topics get grouped together. Please state specifically what you object to.

I was really hoping someone who knew about music and even film would be invested in this page. Bio and Voyager info aren't the only salient facts. At best, Moni3 is feeling very proprietary of this article. At worst, she's being stubbornly incurious. If humanity has to keep slowing down for the latter, it's never going to get anywhere.--Atlantictire (talk) 08:17, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

No, obviously I think Ry Cooder, Jack White, and John Clarke are notable because I added those folks to the article back in January. Uncited references are not good edits. References to films or covers when no mention of what the song adds to the film, or the notability of the cover is just trivia. I've explained this all on my talk page. --Moni3 (talk) 14:01, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

That's not the impression I got when you axed the info about them with your reverts, even after I explained that I was in the process of finding references. FYI, I updated the article before the citations were finished because 1.) I wanted people from the Willie Johnson page to see where that information had gone and 2.) I thought you might want to be a good wiki citizen and help. In the past I have dutifully found citations for articles I had very little to do with writing.

I'm gonna do some non-wiki work for the next few hours. If you sit tight I will explain why Kronos Quartet and Pasolini are notable, just as I did with Wenders et al. Scout's honor.--Atlantictire (talk) 15:35, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Tight I will sit. In eager anticipation. --Moni3 (talk) 15:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Pasolini, Kronos Quartet

Pier Paolo Pasolini, like Wenders, is a major director who considers music as important as any other element of his films. The soundtrack for The Gospel According to St. Matthew (i.e. the one with DWTN on it) was nominated for an Oscar. Scroll down to 1966. It won the Special Jury Prize (that's like second place) at the Venice Film Festival.

Also a screen-writer, Pasolini co-wrote the scripts for Fellini’s La Dolce Vita and Nights of Cabiria. His film adaptation fot the Arabian Nights won the Grand Prix at the Cannes Film Festival. Huge influence on Martin Scorsese. St. Mattew greatly informed Scorsese’s Last Temptation of Christ. Here is what Scorsese says about film.

Kronos Quartet is a 37 year old string quartet. Won a Grammy for Different Trains. Nominated for You’ve Stolen My Heart: Songs From R.D. Burman's Bollywood with Asha Bhosle.

Performs conventional modern classical music as well as jazz, world music, folk and even rock. Collaborates with major composures such as Philip Glass (please tell me you know who that is), Terry Riley, Henryk Górecki, Steve Reich. Has performed and recorded with Modern Jazz Quartet, David Byrne, Tom Waits, David Bowie, Nine Inch Nails, Amon Tobin, and lots, lots more.

Dance companies that have used Kronos' music: Merce Cunningham, Paul Taylor, Twyla Tharp, and Eiko & Koma. Composed and recorded soundtracks for Requiem for a Dream, The Fountain, 21 Grams, True Stories.

Performs in the world’s major concert halls.

If the wikipedia links don’t confirm this info, the Kronos website will.

Maybe you disagree, but I'd say recognition of "Dark as the Night, Cold as the Ground" by these artists is absolutely the sort of thing that confirms the song's status as a great work of art.--Atlantictire (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Let me clarify: I'm not saying this film and Kronos Quartet aren't notable. I'm agreeing that they are. Using the same example of "Amazing Grace" from my talk page, of the 6,000 recorded versions of the song, only maybe ten to twelve are mentioned. It's been covered by some huge names: Dylan, U2, and some not necessarily notable ones, as in recently included in a Pokemon movie I think. The versions that are mentioned in the article are included because they indicate something about the song that changed public perception, the way it was recorded or received, charted, or has been documented, like with the Library of Congress.

So while I'm stipulating that Kronos Quartet is notable, and yes, they recorded "Dark Was the Night", why is their version notable? What did they do, how did they record it, how was it received, or any other information that addresses the way they performed it adds to Johnson's composition?

Similarly, "Crying" by Roy Orbison was used in Mulholland Dr. in a scene where it is sung in Spanish by a woman who collapses although her voice continues to sing in an eerie theater where the emcee says everything is an illusion. The use of the song is at the hinge of the plot and critics wrote about how the song is used in remarkable ways. How is "Dark Was the Night" used in Pasolini's film? How did Wenders cover it in his documentary? What did Wenders say about it, if anything? If he actually did not address the song in any way (and I haven't seen this documentary--if it's online I'll watch it as soon as I can), this should be moved back to Johnson's article. I heard the song used in Walk the Line, so I know it was there. But that doesn't make its appearance in the film very worthy of notice unless a source points it out.

So these versions and references to the song need to be meaningful to the article. That Kronos Quartet recorded it is trivia. That they charted at #78 on the Adult Contemporary charts for 5 weeks (I made that up as an example), or a notable critic called their version "chilling and moving" or "boring and barely functional" (made that up too) is meaningful for readers.

The example in the article already, that Ry Cooder, an internationally recognized master of the slide guitar, based the soundtrack of Paris, Texas on Johnson's song is notable, but what really seals the deal is Cooder's declaring the song "the most transcendent piece in American music". He's an authority and can say that. The reader comes away with a more meaningful perspective of the song. --Moni3 (talk) 21:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Kronos Quartet aren't just anyone. They're one of the best known, most respected string ensembles in the world. Find me another notable string ensemble that's recorded Johnson and we'll talk.

Here's the Allmusic listings for recordings of "Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground". Here's the Allmusic for "Amazing Grace". 93 vs 6651, and the vast majority of the DWTN recordings are compilations with Blind Willie playing. Of the performers Allmusic has listed as having recorded the song, the only one I recognize is Marc Ribot.

Everyone knows "Amazing Grace". Even my nerdiest music nerd friends have never heard of "Dark was the Night, Cold was the Ground". When an artist or a work of art still lacks widespread renown, it matters when the artist or work is embraced by major, established artists. Read up on Schubert. If it hadn't been for key endorsements from a few major composures, you'd never have heard of Ave Maria.

In the Pasolini film the song underscores a leaper's transformation upon being healed by Jesus. Blind Willie Johnson then Bach. Dispair then the ecstasy.--Atlantictire (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Find me another notable string ensemble that's recorded Johnson and we'll talk. But we're talking now, aren't we?

Ok, I'm going to help you out, but it's going to take me a couple days. I'm going to try to get access to some very large information databases to see what writers and scholars say about these references, to make them meaningful as I stated. I was hoping you would take it on because you're quite keen to see these references included. If you're a grad student you have access to a college library and Factiva or Lexis Nexis could be used. Film journals. Things like that. If you haven't seen the Wenders documentary, you know...watch it. This is where I'm going to try to search. If you can find this info before this weekend, super. If not, it's going to have to wait. --Moni3 (talk) 22:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Ça c'est une bonne idée. I think a good goal would be to find 20 recordings of the song and rank them in terms of notablity. With musicians I tend to think of notability in terms of who's written about them and who they've collaborated with. If a musician is important, expect coverage in major news outlets, mention in books and collaborations with other notable artists. As someone who's interested in the song, I'd like to know who the first notable musician(s) was/were to cover it and which major artists have since embraced it. I'm surprised I haven't seen anything about Son House.

I have not seen the Wenders doc, but I'll try to get ahold of it.

I'm thinking you don't like how the film and television paragraph reads. I don't really either. Go ahead and iron out the prose in that section. But no funny stuff.

In trying to find a good source for the Cosmos fact (I couldn't, btw), I came across something really interesting.The song title derives from an old English hymn, "Gethsemane", published in 1792 by physician and clergyman Thomas Haweis. The hymn begins with the lyric “Dark was the night, cold was the ground/on which my Lord was laid.” I think we should include this. It's easy to reference.--Atlantictire (talk) 00:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind the issue of weight, trivia, and synthesis. If you find 20 covers and rank them for notability, that would be original research. Only a source can provide such a ranking. If the article becomes more about the covers than the song itself, it offsets the weight of information and importance about the song. Such a ranking anyway would violate issues about trivia.

Pragmatically, taking a step back, we're potentially putting a lot of work into an article that will likely not be much longer than it already is (or was, when I wrote it) and continue to be a quality article. A better goal would be to improve Johnson's article, reading along the way any information about this song and adding it as you find it. --Moni3 (talk) 14:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

????? You're reading way too much into the word "rank." Any kind of history or expository writing involves what you call "original research"--i.e. deciding what is and isn't important, i.e. "ranking". Edward Carr will tell you as much. I was just sharing my criteria for "notable".--Atlantictire (talk) 15:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, actually, I envisioned a list of the Top 20 Most Notable Covers. Which would be all original research. I admit there's an element of deciding what's important and what's not when reading about a topic and writing summaries of what sources say on Wikipedia. This is why I refuse to write associated articles. Like Johnson's when I wrote this one. (Except for the Everglades...I kinda went nuts on those articles.) But you'd be surprised what craziness people put into articles here, cite it to something barely tangentially related and call it authoritative. So, apologies for the misunderstanding. Perhaps if you explain what your vision is. --Moni3 (talk) 16:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Edits Explained

Try as I might, I could not find anything in the Obrecht article about Blind Willie Johnson being forgotten by all but guitar enthusiasts or about Davies introducing Johnson to R&B musicians. The article says, "Rev. Gary Davis copied Johnson's records and taught his music to up-and-coming New York folkies in the '60s." Also, by the 1960s "R&B" meant stuff like Ray Charles and Marvin Gaye (R&B hits of 1963 and 1968). If you can find evidence for those assertions, feel free to put them back in. There was something in the All Music guide about Davis being enormously popular and respected within the New York folk scene so I briefly mentioned that.--Atlantictire (talk) 06:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I edited the Musicians and writers section so that it's arranged like this: 1. Johnson revivival 2. musicians who have covered DWTN 3. musicians who have said nice things about DWTN 4. writers who have said nice things about DWTN. Obviously, there's a major gap between Fairport and Kronos. I'd like to add something about Cooder (non-Paris, Texas related) and Marc Ribot. They may be all that's necessary. I seriously have not been able to find other musicians who have covered the song that aren't way small time.

Fairport was a very influential British band that included Richard Thompson. Hugely important guitarist and songwriter. So glad I was able to find a reference for that fact.--Atlantictire (talk) 07:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to edit the article some for punctuation, grammar, and to remove what cannot be claimed or cited right now. It's going to look somewhat like I'm taking stuff out, but remember that it ca be re-added when we have better sourcing. So give me about half an hour. --Moni3 (talk) 14:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

So, I copy edited the article to make it tighter and read better. I took out a sentence in the lead because it was extraneous and the information about Cosmos. It can be re-added when a cite is found again. I found a couple places where the original sourcing I put in was switched to something else. Like Bogdanov was cited where Obrecht was when I added it. So, please be careful with that. I'm not sure why you switched The History of the Blues: p. 119 with "Oh, what a beautiful city": a tribute to the Reverend Gary Davis (1896-1972) : gospel, blues, and ragtime Author Robert Tilling Publisher Paul Mill Press, 1992 ISBN 0952060906 p. 76 but I kept the title here for future reference. You linked it to a GoogleBooks entry, but there's no preview. For future reference, it's best just to list the book in the bibliography and cite the page (like Corcoran, Bogdanov, and Davis) instead of linking to GoogleBooks because GoogleBooks hides large portions of text from readers. Online references are no more preferable than print references, so it's not necessary to switch out one for the other.

As for the "all but forgotten", I'll take another look at what I read and see if I can find it again. It'll have to wait for this weekend. --Moni3 (talk) 15:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Nice job. One small factual error: from what I read Davis taught guitar to Jorma Kaukonen of Jefferson Airplane and David Bromberg, but not to any of the members of the bands we list as having covered Johnson. I'm gonna change that so it doesn't read like he was PPM's guitar teacher.--Atlantictire (talk) 15:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Sometime today I will add the Thomas Haweis fact because that is just huge. It illustrates how Johnson's music--and, well, blues for that matter--at its inception was in large part hymns and spirituals filtered through the African American experience.--Atlantictire (talk) 15:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Think you can chill with the grammar fiats? There’s a subtle difference in meaning between "covered" and “would cover” but both are past tense. I like one you like the other. Whoop de shit.

Busy today so I'll add the hymn info tomorrow.--Atlantictire (talk) 01:54, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, no. "Would cover" is not encyclopedic. Did they cover it or not? If they did, it should be in past tense. It's something I got from multiple article reviews from people whose grammar and punctuation are much, much better than mine. --Moni3 (talk) 01:57, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. Also, please find where that's written because I think you made it up.

"would cover" is past conditional. Conditionals specify causation. Ex.: If you weren't so condescending, I'd be less cranky.

The verb (simple past tense) in your sentence is causally neutral, although causation is implied by the context. The verb (past conditional) in mine is more causally explicit. Both are morphosyntactically fine, although personally I prefer the nuance of the second.

My grammatical foes are excessive use of relative clauses at the beginning of sentences and lots of embedded clauses. There's a few in the article I think could be zapped, but whatever. No need to nit-pick.--Atlantictire (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Anyway.

I guess my point is if you don’t like how something sounds then change it. No need to accompany the edit with a dubious grammatical reprimand. I’ll probably only object if the change results in an unambiguous factual error or if with the edit, as I may now illustrate, the syntax becomes so spectacularly contorted the sentence could find work with Canada-based performance troupe, Cirque du Soleil.

I thought I'd mention that the review of Johnson in The Bookman was by Edward Abbe Niles. He was a leading exponent of the blues and there's tons written about and ref erencing him. A prefab wikipedia article, if you ask me. Also, Obrecht got the name of the journal wrong. It's "The Bookman". He was probably thrown off by how Niles is referred to as Bookman critic Edward Abbe Niles, same as the music critic for The New Yorker is New Yorker critic Sasha Frere Jones.

Finally, Louis Armstrong's "Melancholy Blues" is on the Golden Record, so this isn't true: "Johnson's intonation of poverty, class disparity, and alienation is unique to the project; no other sounds representing a negative human experience were chosen for the record." --Atlantictire (talk) 09:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

If you're worried the Humphrey Great Depression link looks a bit rinky-dink, the same guy who wrote the chapter cited in the Cohn book wrote the content of that page. It's a transcription of soundtrack liner notes from the PBS doc The Great Depression.

I'm pretty thrilled about the Sacred Harp connection. (edit: ok, so the book calls it "fasola". A lot of people see these terms as interchangeable, but fasola is a little more inclusive than Sacred Harp). The commonalities between shape note/fasola/Sacred Harp singing and lining-out are absolutely facinating. Two sides of the same tradition: hymn-based sacred music for the poor and illiterate.--Atlantictire (talk) 00:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Deleted sentence about Voyager record that was factually incorrect. Deleted info about BWJ's blindness and the specific circumstances of his death that is more suited to the bio page and is covered there. Since this is an article about the song, and overview is fine. If people want to know why he went blind, they can go to the BWJ page.--Atlantictire (talk) 00:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Multiple sources show Johnson and Smith sold on Columbia as well as Vocalion. However, the only source I could find for the sales figures fact was a website run by a blues dj named Jeff Harris.--Atlantictire (talk) 11:33, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm of the mind that, when you're talking about the legacy of a work of art, the ways in which it has impacted the culture are the most notable things about it. What works of art were made because this work of art exists? The fact that the song was on the Voyager Golden Record is charming, but it unless you can explain the cultural impact of the record it's not as important as the ways in which DWTN has influenced and continues to influence 1.) music and 2.) film. It's a song that has begotten wonderful art that has begotten other wonderful art. This is the basis of its value, and it has little to do with the Voyager Record.--Atlantictire (talk) 20:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I deleted the sentence that said it was chosen for the Voyager record as an expression of loneliness. There were two sources listed and neither of them were actually attributed to the committee that chose the song, nor did they quote or reference anything said by the committee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.164.32.41 (talk) 15:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Preview

If, as the Wikisource page says, the recording is in the public domain due to expired copyright, why do we have only a 28-second preview of it? Elmo iscariot (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

We don't know whether Columbia Records renewed the copyright or not. If they did, then they hold the rights until 2023. ShawnIsHere: Now in colors 08:50, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

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