Talk:Criswell College
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Editing by the Criswell College
editThe edits are almost all made from an IP originating at the Criswell College. It sounds like an Advertisement because it is. Hungus (talk • contribs) 03:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
sooo, unaccredited? 75.191.151.75 (talk) 05:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
No it is SACS accredited but it is on a warning: "Criswell College is accredited by the Commission on Colleges; however, the institution was denied reaffirmation of accreditation and placed on Warning for twelve months following its comprehensive decennial review. The Commission’s accreditation includes all components of the institution—all programs, branch campuses, off-campus sites, and distance learning programs as reported to the Commission; thus, the Warning status applies to the entire institution. Prior to the institution’s next review by the Commission’s Board in December 2011, a Special Committee will conduct an on-site evaluation of its compliance with the Principles of Accreditation—the accreditation standards of the Commission." - from http://www.sacscoc.org/2010%20December%20Actions%20and%20Disclosure%20Statements/Criswell%20College.pdf Downloaded 05/19/2011 Hungus (talk • contribs) 10:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I am not certain why users at Criswell College keep deleting the fact that the school is Dispensational, Dr. James Bryant, founding Dean of the school and writer of the Statement of Faith for the school always made it a point to let students know Dr. Criswell wanted it to be a Dispensational school when Dr. Bryant taught or spoke on the founding of the school. Hungus (talk • contribs) 10:28, 02 July 2011 (UTC)
Andrewhebert86 An Employee of the institution, continues to edit the institutional page in an effort to remove relevant sourced data about it. Hungus (talk • contribs) 14:02, 07 January 2012 (UTC)
There continues to be vandalism attempting to remove the Dispensational aspect of Criswell College, despite the evidence to the contrary as has been linked on the actual page. Interesting because one of the longest serving members of the faculty is quoted as saying "Every true exegete of Scripture is a dispensationalist" - Already linked on the main page. So why do other members of Criswell want to remove this important part of Criswell's founding and continued contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hungus (talk • contribs) 18:23, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
A user, Hungus, continues to falsely claim that the college is Dispensationalist in contradiction to the college's Articles of Faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelichordesummoner (talk • contribs) 04:56, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Angelichordesummoner is attempting to institute an edit fight. Evidence, as already linked, show that the institution was founded by a dispensational preacher, requires its staff be either dispensational or premillenial, and that its older faculty have clearly stated that they are dispensational. The description clearly states that the school is Premillenial / Dispensational, not Dispensational only. Further James Bryant, writer of the Criswell Articles of Faith, on a number of occasions has made statements that he wrote the articles to support dispensational belief, a position that both he and Dr. Criswell fully uphold. Hungus (talk)
A number of changes have been added by various editors over the past few days: Urban or Suburban There is obviously some dispute as to weither Criswell College is Urban or Suburban, the simple fact is that it is on the border. Criswell College editors in the past have claimed it as both and looking at arial maps shows it on the edge of urban environments and normal housing.
The issue of the validity of the Baptist as a source. It Should be noted that it is the denominational newsletter and a primary source for Baptist news.
The Schools Dispensational Nature: Congregation and Campus: Baptists in Higher Education by William H. Brackney p 373 "Our church should establish an institute for intensive Bible study, based on conservative evangelical Christianity as preached and practiced in our church" Criswell is noted for having taught Dispensationalism from the pulpit. [1]
Further from the Southern Baptist Texan Online (the newsletter of the organization that helps sponsor The Criswell College) http://texanonline.net/news/qa-ot-scholar-responds-to-questions-on-premillennial-dispensationalism Q: Is dispensationalism the dominant view at Criswell College? A: Most of our younger faculty members have never really worked through this issue perhaps because of the lack of knowledge about it, so they have not embraced it. The older faculty?Leroy Metts, James Bryant and myself?hold various views, but would generally affirm some form of dispensational thought.
Mentioning that First Baptist Dallas passed a resolution to not separate the School for a minimum of 5 years was removed, even though that resolution was violated when the school separated in 2010. comment added by Hungus (talk • contribs) 02:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Further, Someone keeps removing the Dr. from Dr. James Bryant's name. While it is true that he did not hold a doctorate at the time of the Criswell College's founding, he does currently.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hungus (talk • contribs)
- See WP:CREDENTIAL for why the Dr. should not be there, regardless of whether the person has a doctorate. VQuakr (talk) 03:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
References
- ^ W. A. Criswell. "THE RISING OF ISRAEL".
people coming to hear me preach said, "Why, that man is a pre-millennialist. Why, that man is a dispensationalist." I never had a pre-millennial teacher in my life. I never had a dispensational teacher in my life, nor had I ever read any pre-millennial literature. But they said as I was preaching through the Bible, they said, "Why that man is premillennialist, he is a premillennialist. He is preaching about the Jews. He is preaching about the land belonging to the Jews. And he is preaching about their return to the Holy Land. And he is talking about their conversion there in the land. He is preaching that." I never made it up. I was just preaching through the Bible. That is all I was doing.
Dispensationalist
editI requested a better source for this with an inline tag. The only source now is to an interview with Lamar E. Cooper. He does not identify the college as Dispensationalist, though he does mention that he personally holds that view. See WP:SYNTH for a discussion on why extending that to the college on the basis of this reference is inappropriate. VQuakr (talk) 03:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- The question Cooper is asked is specifically about the school, he responds that he and the older faculty are dispensational, the others are premill, thus it is not synthesis. You can say it is a primary source, but not synthesis. Synthesis would be citing the school founding documents stating that the church would set up a school teaching christianity as christianity was taught by the church then citing the church was known as a dispensationalist church. --Hungus (talk) 09:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- The question is "Is dispensationalism the dominant view at Criswell College?" This is a question about the views of the people associated with the college. Calling the college dispensational implies that it is an official view of the organization and is not supported by this reference. VQuakr (talk) 09:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- So since you have deemed the schools statement of faith to require synthesis, the founding documents to be synthesis, the school president's comments to be non supporting I have to ask what would you like to see in the statement that the school is both Historic PreMil and Dispensational's place? Further, why have you not contested its Historic PreMil position? --Hungus (talk) 14:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
"Q: Is dispensationalism the dominant view at Criswell College? A: Most of our younger faculty members have never really worked through this issue perhaps because of the lack of knowledge about it, so they have not embraced it. The older faculty -- Leroy Metts, James Bryant and myself -- hold various views but would generally affirm some form of dispensational thought." note: at the time Cooper was the interim president at Criswell College.
Would you consider "Darby’s teachings, ubiquitous in his voluminous writings and through his many discourses, influenced some who would later prove instrumental in the founding of institutions of theological higher education. Philadelphia College of the Bible, Dallas Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, The Master’s Seminary, Chafer Theological Seminary, The Criswell College, and Emmaus Bible College—to mention only a few of the better known schools—all have theological roots in Darby." sufficiently clear as a secondary source for Criswell College being dispensational?
Why, if the sources for The Criswell College's dispensational side are being challenged, why is the Premillennial side not also being challenged? --Hungus (talk) 10:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Hungus, the reason the Premillennial side is not being challenged is because Premillennialism is the officially stated position in the school's statement of faith. As you know, according to Premillennialism, Jesus will return to earth before the establishing of his millennial kingdom. As such, Premillennialism encompasses Dispensationalism but the two are not identical. I like to think about it in terms of two concentric circles. Dispensationalism is a smaller circle within the bigger circle of Premillenialism. Criswell's statement of faith states that the school's official position encompasses the larger circle. Some professors may fall within the smaller Dispensationalist circle but other professors may fall within another category of the larger circle of Premillenialism. In other words, labeling the school as Dispensationalist on the page is defining it two narrowly. The official position cannot be defined that narrowly based on the statement of faith. The statement of faith leaves it broad enough to encompass forms of Premillenialism that are not Dispensational. Angelichordesummoner (talk) 22:52, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- User:Angelichordesummoner I know the schools SOF, I have studied it, I have spoken with its writer, heck I have even sat in on his class going through the SOF. The schools SOF has been ruled as requiring Synthesis and thus cannot be used to Show Historic Pre-mil either. The description as it currently states on the main page says that the school is BOTH Pre Mil and Dispensational, thus a union of the two. Not just Dispensational, and not Just Pre-mill. It might be better worded to say Historic Premill and Dispensational, you in your ignorance of the school have challenged its dispensational nature and thus likely thrown out its pre-mil side as well. Further Dispensationalism is not in the circle of Premillennialism it is a separate eschatological system entirely. It does share some items but there are substantial differences as do Amill and PostMill. To say Dispensationalism is a subset of PreMil would be to commit the same error as saying Amil is a subset of PostMil. Premil is Covenantal, Dispensationalism is well Dispensational. The school was established to teach christianity as was taught by First Baptist Dallas. Christianity taught by First Baptist Dallas under Dr. Criswell and later pastors was Dispensational. Hungus (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
- I need to point out to both of you that the only proper purpose of editing Wikipedia is to improve Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, not to grind an axe about a topic of particular interest to you. The talk page rule says, "Do not use the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article." How we improve articles is to artfully include relevant material which is supported by publicly-available reliable sources, as defined by Wikipedia. Either there are publicly-available reliable sources which say, without synthesis or original research, that the school is dispensational, premillennial, or — for all I know — anyotheral or there are not. If there are, find them and include the corresponding assertions and the citations which prove them, if there are not, then the assertions cannot be included here no matter how true or how necessary to a proper depiction of the school those assertions may be. That's the way Wikipedia is, and for you to continue to argue or edit war about whether it is or is not dispensational or premillennial is irrelevant and inappropriate.
- As I was writing the foregoing, I found Hungus' most recent posting on my talk page, which says:
It is unsourced for Wikipedia purposes (which are all that count here), unless there is a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia which can be cited. It does not make any difference whatsoever why no such source currently exists, if that is the case. That's because the standard to include information in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth and it cannot be included until it can be verified with a Wikipedia-acceptable reliable source, . (While it is true that it does not have to be verifiable online, it does have to be verifiable in a publicly-available source somewhere that can be identified and accessed; see the verifiability policy for more detail on that question.) Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:35, 17 April 2012 (UTC)It is not unsourced, and the information is true. It may not be sourced to the point where the discussion is ended but that is unfortunately do to the available public sources an the inability to cite archival information because it has been blocked by the president's office at The Criswell College. Hungus (talk) 19:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I was writing the foregoing, I found Hungus' most recent posting on my talk page, which says:
- TransporterMan First a bit of context your blockquote did not provide. It was specifically in relation to your closing of the discussion on the dispute resolution page without looking to the christianity noticeboard where another editor had requested support before the dispute board post had been opened. Yes, I know wikipedia is not about the truth. There are noted issues that we historians have noted in the language used by Dr Criswell and FBC Dallas in describing things. For example: “Our church should establish an institute for intensive Bible study, based on conservative evangelical Christianity as preached and practiced in our church,” (Report of “Bible Institute” Committee, 1970, p. 2)." Now the position of FBC Dallas at the time is acknowledged as Dispensationalism, but that quote from the report does not say "we will found a dispensational school" so even though 'as preached and practiced refers to Dispensationalism' super editors have deemed that to be synthesis. Both can be sourced to the same organization (First Baptist Dallas) and the second is used to remove an inherent fuzziness in the first. So are you saying that the clarification of the first statement by the second is synthesis because the statement of the churches position is about the church and not the school even though it is the church's position which is the defining position in the establishment of the school? I know wikipedia says this about synthesis""A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article." or am I misreading this and what it is really saying is A&B ->C only if reported the same by a different source. I of course simply see it as "we shall create X to do things in our fashion." What is our fashion? "Y" so the new sentence becomes "We shall create X to do things in Y fashion" Is that synthesis by your reading? I am not trying to argue here, I am trying to sort things out --Hungus (talk) 06:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
- After writing a wall-o-text to answer your question, I re-read your question and realized that I could answer it in just a few words: Yes, you are misreading it and that is indeed synthesis (and it's not just my reading). However, having written the following exhaustive explanation, I am going to go ahead and leave it here for what it's worth, though I'm going to collapse it to save space.
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- Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:44, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Progressively negative
editI am worried that the page is becoming progressively negative. I would more than welcome Dr. Jerry Johnson to appoint someone from the College to work with me to help correct this. The school has done some enormously good things over the years and such should be included but will likely only be able to be sourced from the schools archives. Examples include: For years students spent their Friday nights in Deep Elum evangelizing and answering questions on the streets. Further, I know that there have been a number of other organizations that have been assisted by Criswell students such as a suicide prevention hotline and the homeless shelter that is run by First Baptist Dallas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hungus (talk • contribs) 02:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Do you mean the talk page, or the article itself? No special appointments are needed to change the tone of a talk page - just be cordially invite others to communicate civilly and set a strong example if the behavior you want to see. VQuakr (talk) 03:29, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I mean the page, not the talk page. Had I mean the talk page I would have said 'this' page. Regardless, given that the only factual edits to the Criswell College page over the past few years have originated from either myself or members of Dr. Johnson's staff and given that Dr. Johnson has access to the Criswell archives and school documents that could be used to source improvements I feel the request that his office appoint someone to assist is appropriate. --Hungus (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
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