Talk:Criminal possession of a weapon

Correct phrase

Wouldn't the correct phrase be "unlawful possession of a weapon"? Exploding Boy 22:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge (2007)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Merged into Concealed Carry in the United States#Weapon possession Arthurrh (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

 Done

This is the diff from that merge: [1]. Lightbreather (talk) 23:51, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Requested move 11 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: PAGE MOVED as requested. Hadal (talk) 06:36, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

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Weapon possession → Criminal possession of a weapon – This is what the preponderance of sources call it, as indicted in the article's first section's opening sentence: "Criminal possession of a weapon generally falls into one of several categories" --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC) Lightbreather (talk) 23:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Support. Current name does not make clear that it's about criminal possession.  Liam987(talk) 23:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support - The title Weapon possession should be used as the name for a parent article including a section summarizing this article (about the crime) and another section summarizing Firearms license (about the lawful possession of a weapon). Neelix (talk) 00:06, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Weapons are not restricted to firearms. When an overarching parent article is created, it should also cover stuff such as restricted knives, etc. (IIRC, there are restrictions to owning swords in Japan, and certain types of knives are illegal in Canada, etc) -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support - completely misleading title or the article is woefully imbalanced. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 01:21, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support WP:CRITERIA this is not about possession of weapons -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Seems reasonable. I created this article uncertain what to really call it.Legitimus (talk) 10:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support in principle, at least Red Slash 17:31, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
• Relisting comment - there's quite a lot of support in the votes section, but I've not closed it yet, because of some rumblings below that Unlawful possession of a weapon, Criminal possession of a weapon in the United States, or similar alternative targets might be better. Please could we nail down and affirm exactly which title we prefer. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support a move to Unlawful possession of a weapon in the United States or something similar (such as a modification of User:SmokeyJoe's suggestion, i.e. Lawful weapon possession in the United States) per the discussion below. This is the current scope of the article. The article has been around for a long time and nothing has been added from other countries. If editors want to expand it significantly in the future, they can create parent articles. —  AjaxSmack  01:57, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• Agree "in the United States". The article is completely focused on the United States. If later broadened, "in the United States" can be dropped, but more likely a separate article would better give a global summary. Support Lawful weapon possession in the United States. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:18, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• This was not as US-focused until someone imported the firearm law section, but it was focused on English-speaking countries. I would much rather expand on it with material from other countries that make it yet another article about American gun politics. And this is about a type of legislation, like Knife legislation, so it should be named appropriately. Indeed Knife legislation is a specific subtype of this kind of law. My intention was to create an article and broadly covered legislation on all weaponry, not just guns and knives, as there are many laws about batons, brass knuckles, blackjacks, and even pepper spray.Legitimus (talk) 12:19, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• It's such a short article that it seems silly to me to restrict its ultimate scope to a single country. I would recommend moving to Criminal possession of a weapon just as most people above have agreed upon, and then splitting off a United States-specific article eventually if this article unexpectedly gets so large as to require a split in accordance with summary style. I would oppose any move to a title starting with the word "Lawful". Neelix (talk) 20:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support original proposed move. Yes I can see the arguments for "Unlawful possession of a weapon" or "Criminal possession of a weapon in the United States" but 1) I don't find them entirely convincing -- slap a {{Globalize/US}} template on it instead, or something -- and 2) would not want quibbling over details to prevent the move to an improved title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herostratus (talk • contribs)

Discussion

• Comment. No objections on the substance, but isn't "Unlawful possession of a weapon" or "Illegal possession of a weapon" a bit more generic and encyclopedic? As explained in the article, not every illegal possession is a punishable crime, and the term "criminal" has more sinister connotations than "unlawful" or "illegal", which are more neutral. A quick search (see google:Unlawful possession of weapons and google:Illegal possession of weapons) reveals that the two terms are more common than google:Criminal possession of weapons, and are more used in applicable laws (although there's generally a mixture). Pinging Legitimus, Scalhotrod, Neelix, Liam987 and Lightbreather (and User:Newyorkbrad as a lawyer, for a good measure) for possible comments. No such user (talk) 11:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

  P.S. The relevant 18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts states in numerous places that "It shall be unlawful..." Compare also unlawful killing, unlawful combatant, unlawful assembly. No such user (talk) 11:44, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

  This is a good point. While it is true that there are statutes that literally call it "criminal possession of a weapon," unlawful might make more sense.Legitimus (talk) 12:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Raw google search (-wikipedia) results:

• "Illegal possession of a weapon" - 60,100
• "Unlawful possession of a weapon" - 156,000
• "Criminal possession of a weapon" - 244,000

The first sentence of the first section says, "Criminal possession of a weapon generally falls into one of several categories."

The article's title was "Weapon possession (crime)" from May 2010 until November 2012.[2]

As written right now - with no references, BTW - the correct title is "Criminal possession of a weapon." Lightbreather (talk) 16:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Perusing search results for "Criminal possession of a weapon" -wikipedia -wiki, it seems that ~80% of results come from the state of New York. I guess that is how it's called in this legislature, but not in many others.
I disagree with the approach "as written right now". We should take a broader look what should be the natural scope of the article, and adjust the title and contents accordingly, not just treat the contents as given. No such user (talk) 16:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused as to the scope of this article, is it describing why criminals should not have weapons or something else? Plus there's also the people who are made into criminals because they are in possession of weapons (usually certain types of firearms) that are made "illegal" by legislation. This has been happening in the U.S. at least since 1934 and the National Firearms Act.

Plus, are we going to amend the title to include "United States" or is the article going to expanded to include the rest of the world? --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 16:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the entire article was merged into Concealed carry in the United States in 2007 (see discussion above this one), but must have been re-created in 2010. I imagine other countries have "criminal possession of a weapon" laws, but unless this article is going to be expanded, the title should probably have "in the United States," as Scalhotrod suggests. Lightbreather (talk) 16:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I started this article in 2010 having no knowledge that it existed prior to that. My intention was an article on broad subject of illegal weapon possession, which includes general possession as well as carry restrictions. This is a universal type of law found in every country in the world (and each of the 50 states in the US) except perhaps a few poor nations in states of complete anarchy (places were you can have a rocket launcher and no police agency will arrest you). The universality of this kind of law also makes sourcing a bit weird. There are thousands of sources on individual jurisdictions I could quote, but they only address those jurisdictions. Very few address the overall concept, but the concept is fairly obvious.

I found it sort of peculiar that it took five years for someone to bring this up. I think if the content were that contentious someone would have brought it up before then. That said, I am no professional writer and my worlding of the subject is not necessarily perfect.Legitimus (talk) 19:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• Prefer to phrase in the positive. Lawful weapon possession or Lawful possession of weapons. "Lawful" or "Legal". Criminal or unlawful or illegal possession of weapons is appropriately covered under Lawful weapon possession, but lawful weapon possession should not be under "Criminal possession". This article feels quite unbalanced, and I think it is because it attempts to describe the criminal without first having establish the legal. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:03, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

History of articles Weapon possession and Concealed carry in the U.S.

History of this article and Concealed carry in the United States:

• 5 November 2004 - Concealed carry in the United States created
• 18 December 2004 - Weapon possession created
• 30 August 2007 - 9 December 2007 - Discussion on the CCUS talk page re merging 4-5 articles into it
• 20:21 8 December 2007 - Weapon possession merged into CCUS
• 20:22 8 December 2007, UTC - Possession of a weapon redirected to Concealed carry in the United States#Weapon possession
• 8 March 2010 - Massive change in CCUS
• 18 May 2010 - Weapon possession (crime) created
• 16 June 2010 - Unlawful possession of a weapon: Revision history created to redirect to Weapon possession (crime)
• 00:34 30 November 2012, UTC - Weapon possession (crime) moved to Weapon possession
• 00:34 30 November 2012, UTC - Weapon possession moved to Possession of a weapon

--Lightbreather (talk) 20:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Merge (2015)

After studying the history of this article (above), what links to this article,[3] the history of related article "Concealed carry in the United States" (also above), I have merged/moved the text that was in a subsection there ("Penalties for carrying illegally," a subsection of "Legal issues") into this article - for now into a new section headed "Concealed carry in the United States."

I welcome any help in melding the text of this article with the "new" text, as well as summarizing it for the "old" page. Lightbreather (talk) 20:40, 14 March 2015 (UTC)