Talk:Conflict of the Orders

G. E. M. de Ste. Croix

"Class Struggle In the Ancient Greek World" which treats Rome also, but primarily from the late Republic on deserves mention in this context. Cornell University Press, 1981, G. E. M. de St. Croix

No response since my original comment above more than 9 months ago. As I understand it, the general resolution of the conflict(s) was that upon execution of the seccesio by the plebs and middle orders reforms were effected leading to the mature constituion of the Republic. These events transpired before the civil war by a generation an about a century before the collapse of the Republic. Will verify and modify the article if no one else does. Lycurgus 20:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry didn't see that the secessio had been added in the intervening period. Lycurgus 02:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Change ?

At first only Patricians were allowed to stand for election to political office,

with

At first only Patricians were allowed to stand for election for political office,

Ronbarak (talk) 14:42, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Whoa! Too long. That needs to be broken into manageable groups of text. - Boston (talk) 01:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm skeptical about this entire rewrite actually. There is considerable reason to doubt every point of the account, much of it discussed in Raaflaub's volume (the reference to which was deleted) but the rewrite rephrases everything as if there was scholarly consensus on every detail. We really don't want to be uncritically retelling every one of Livy's fairy tales... Stan (talk) 05:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Most contemporary recordings of events that did happen this long ago (take Herodotus for example) also have a lack of "scholarly consensus", the question is just to what degree. As for a lack of "scholarly consensus", there seems to have been little scholarly work on this area during the past century. With the exception of a couple of books written during the past 50 years, most of the books on this subject are at least 100 years old. Some of the best books on this topic are 150 (Theodor Mommsen) or 250 (Edward Gibbon) years old. I have gone ahead and added back the qualifying section, but the lack of recent scholarly work limits the ways in which this article can be modified otherwise, outside of just deleting it. RomanHistorian (talk) 05:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

There's been all kinds of recent research; in addition to the articles in Raaflaub's collection, check out Tim Cornell's The Beginnings of Rome. As I see it, 20th-century archaeological work in Rome has been devastating to the traditional story; there is just not much corroborating contemporary physical evidence being found. If anything, Rome is looking more and more like a Greek colony of Naples. Gibbon is a fun read (I've read him unabridged), but he dates from an age when they were starting to suspect that much of the ancient source material was total fabrication, but didn't yet have the scientific basis to discover just how bad it was. For instance, his opening chapters are devoted to demonstrating how the empire was more populous and prosperous than the Europe of his own time, using numbers from ancient sources, but from analysis of agricultural productivity, we know there can't possibly have been that many. So we just need to cross-check our older authorities against newer ones, be sure that we're reflecting current understanding. Stan (talk) 15:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent addition

I resisted the temptation to revert the latest addition to the fact-or-legend section, but I think it's problematic, because it adds a counter-counter-view without any citation, and in fact since the the Raaflaub citation is still at the same place, it falsely attributes the vague "numerous authors" reference to Raaflaub, which is exactly the opposite of what the reference really says. So at the very least it needs to be moved around so as not to misrepresent what our scholars are saying. Stan (talk)

You are probably correct. I was frustrated that the article presents a radical view without any counterpoint, thereby leaving the impression that the view is somehow accepted by modern scholarship. The suggestion that hundereds of years of history has been fabricated is not a view which is shared by the most cynical of Roman historigraphers. I have no difficulty with you undoing the change and reworking it to make it more clear (although I would be shocked if Raaflaub doesn't cites the alternative traditional view, so maybe you can still attribute the counterpoint to the same author).--Urg writer (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Confusion

"It should therefore not be viewed as the final triumph of democracy over aristocracy.... Thus, the ultimate significance of this law was in the fact that it robbed the Patricians of their final weapon over the Plebeians...."

This portion is confusing. Did the law do what was intended or didn't it? Did it empower the plebs or were they still subject to control by the Patricians? Could someone who has more knowledge help?InformationvsInjustice (talk) 06:14, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Caeso Quinctius

needs mentioning, even if only in a legendary account section. — LlywelynII 05:04, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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Problems in the fasti

So you know how the first consul is Junius and that name is only plebeian:

The problem was in fact sufficiently clear in antiquity. Dionysius of Halicarnassus knew there was a problem with the first consul being a Junius, because subsequently they were a plebeian family, but his answer was to shrug it off (Smith in Consuls and res publica 2011 p 25)

Smith cites Dion Hal 5.18 and if you look there "shrug it off" is flippant but very much accurate: Dion Hal 5.18.2: But I leave the consideration of these matters to those whose business and interest it is to discover the precise facts. Thanks a lot DH. Ifly6 (talk) 09:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)