Talk:Cleveland sports curse

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Does the UFC fight count?

The curse as originally written has absolutely nothing to do with UFC fights, only the Indians, Cavaliers, and Browns. The Curse of Billy Penn (at least as it is currently written) does not count the Philadelphia Soul's Arena Bowl win as the end either - that is considered the Phillies' 2008 WS win. 160.93.6.9 (talk) 15:16, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

the UFC fight does not count. The curse is geared only towards the major sports franchises. similarly, for some reason 1 editor on the stipe page keep proclaiming he broke it even though that is unfounded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.250.71 (talk) 18:39, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It was not "1 editor" who said it, but CBS, USA Today, Sports illustrated and a legion of others. If the sources are well cited, it has no business being deleted.Equilibrium103 (talk) 06:11, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

What are the people's thoughts on Mickey Bey and Shawn Porter also getting titles "for Cleveland" then? do they count as having broken the curse? I feel that is UFC is to be considered then boxing definitely should be as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.250.71 (talk) 12:44, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Certainly if it were an undisputed championship, but probably not an arbitrary belt among the balkanized boxing regulatory bodies. Miocic's win made him the uncontroversial divisional apex of the entire sport globally.Equilibrium103 (talk) 17:55, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

The curse has not ended.

Stipe Miocich did not end the curse. The curse revolves around the 3 pro sports teams, not around individual athletes. If that were the case then LeBron James would have ended the curse in 2011 when he won the NBA finals and Finals MVP. The Stipe Miocich information would be more relevant added to the introduction of this article along with the soccer teams who won in the 90s, rather than saying he ended the curse. The curse will not end until one of the 3 major pro sports teams wins a championship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.85.214.4 (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

That was 2012, and he was representing Miami. Miocic did it for Cleveland. Big difference. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:30, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

He did not "do it for Cleveland" .. he is from Cleveland and is a Cleveland fan. he is not sponsored by Cleveland as a city he is not "the Cleveland Stipes" or "the Cleveland Miocics". He is just himself with no association with Cleveland as a representative other than just being from there. Big difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.250.71 (talk) 12:51, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

When you say you're going to win for Cleveland before you win and attribute it to a Cleveland work ethic, that's representation. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I have revised the article. The claim re Miocic seems to be based on the news articles used as sources, which I additionally feel is too biased based upon the fact that Fox has UFC's broadcasting rights and has an inherent incentive to up-play the things they have. The same had been done regarding the Curse of Billy Penn when the Philadelphia Soul won ArenaBowl XXII; ESPN (who had Arena Football League broadcast rights then) also claimed it was over, something which the Billy Penn article rejects. 160.93.6.2 (talk) 14:40, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

CBS has no such interests, and counts it. The Vancouver Sun notes Miocic noting Cleveland's area code on the clock and snow in the city. The Daily Telegraph counted it before it happened. Is anyone reputable saying he didn't break it? If so, that's a fair challenge. Simply explaining why it doesn't count to you isn't. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

The Plain Dealer via Cleveland.com does not - it considers Miocic's win a possible good omen to it breaking. The Washington Post talks of it in the present tense even after Miocic's win (note date - though word of caution it may be behind a paywall if one has reached the free articles limit). ESPN is neutral - it notes Miocic's exclamation after his win but says nothing about the curse either way (additional note 5/28 - For what it's worth [ESPN] still considers the "drought" active at 52 years in the article regarding Cavs winning Game 6 of the ECF.) Would it be better to wait until the NBA Playoffs are done to see how it goes? If the Cavs win the title, this'll only be a matter of about a month in a 50+ year span. If the Cavs don't, the public's reaction at large will (hopefully) settle this. (Separately, if Miocic's title does count, why don't the Cleveland Crush's titles in the 90's?) 160.93.6.6 (talk) 14:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

They were the Cleveland Crunch, and their league wasn't on TV or recognized by FIFA. Fringe sport. Apparently did not even lead the sports section, let alone the news when they won their titles. A Google Newspapers search seems to back that obscurity up, and it's uncited here. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:23, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

the fact that it wasn't on TV shouldn't affect the decision either way. Furthermore, by saying it is a "fringe" sport you are still admitting it is a sport, which by that logic, UFC is a small section of the overall MMA sport and should fall in the same category. Also, the fact that FIFA even existed back then as an overall sports admin and mma has no such thing gives even more weight to soccer as more of a "sport" than the ufc. Also, even the first description of the sports curse in this wiki says it is for CLEVELAND SPORTS TEAMS... is Stipe Miocic a team? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.250.71 (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Of course being on TV affects it. If nobody sees a curse break, nobody reports it. If nobody reports it, Wikipedia can't claim it. As many reliable sources are reporting this as they are because UFC is the undisputed global leader in MMA. Wild Bill's Fight Night is more of what you seem to be thinking of.

Miocic is on a Cleveland team. They train together and gameplan together, but only one member steps up at a time. Sort of like baseball. You don't need to follow that logic if you don't want to, and it doesn't matter if you do, because our content policy isn't based on our deductions (even if they're brilliant), but what's verifiable per reliable sources. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:29, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

And MMA is regulated by multiple governments, adhering to a common set of "Unified Rules", which are in most places literally the law. Pretty legit, if administration and bureaucracy is what makes a sport a sport. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:40, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I do not believe the team is ever considered "the Cleveland team" or "the team from Cleveland". are there any sources that say that the team is sponsored or associated with Cleveland aside from just being there? Furthermore, I believe that it has already been stated that the curse is towards the major sports teams. If you want to include Stipe, please make the wiki consistent.. currently it starts with.. "The Cleveland sports curse is a sports superstition involving the city of Cleveland, and its professional sports teams. Cleveland has three teams in the four major North American professional sports leagues: the Browns of the National Football League (NFL), the Cavaliers of the National Basketball Association (NBA), and Major League Baseball (MLB)'s Indians." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.2.128 (talk) 12:58, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say they were the Cleveland team. That's the Cavs, at the moment. But Stipe is the Cleveland sportsman of the day, and a member of that team. I've added more sources illustrating this, along with ones that consider the curse unbroken. The bit about how it only applies to those three teams in the lead could use a citation. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

So for future reference, the ESPN ads for the current ESPN finals say "will the half century title drought in Cleveland finally end" you can hear it in the most recent bill barnwell podcast (the one with mina kimes) in the last 10 seconds of the podcast. ESPN seems about as good of a source as any to weigh in on the subject of the curse, and they do not consider it ended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.250.71 (talk) 12:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Somes sources do, some don't. If you'd like to use ESPN as one of those that doesn't for the sentence about how some don't, that seems fine. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:51, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

i think the overall reaction by the media and people last night and today has shown that the curse is NOW considered to be over thanks to the Cavs. not before. The sections of this wiki also seems to be structured as such (since the curse is towards the major sports franchises) therefore the Stipe page has been edited accordingly for consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.250.61 (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

"The overall reaction of the media and people" needs serious sourcing to back that claim, but even if there were, it does nothing to make said "people" notable (especially given their likely ignorance of the state of MMA which, no, does not invalidate that hundreds of millions of others globally are not) and nothing to erase the fact that many or even most the very same sources made the opposite claim beforehand. They made their headlines, and the record will have to show that, like it or not.Equilibrium103 (talk) 18:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)