Talk:Clamato

"debate" over the countries of origin (page vandalism). Unfounded and pretty much disproven claims of mexico being the birthplace of the Clamato.

The page has been vandalized a couple of times in the last year by some anonymous users claiming that Clamato was invented in Mexico. I have counted 2 attempts in the last year(2021) one on Jan 26 and another on Nov 15. I also found one attempt to change it to Canada on May 17 2019. There were likely early attempts but I didn't bother going back that far.

I did a quick lookup trying to understand why people were vandalizing the page and found a couple of different websites* claiming that Clamato was invented in the 1960s in the capital city of the Mexican state of Baja California, Mexicali in the Hotel Lucerne's bar the Acueducto.

I looked up the hotel and they do claim** that they are the birthplace of "El Clamato" and that it was invented in their bar in 1966, the thing is though the bar wasn't around in 1966, and likely for the rest of the 60s as they apparently bought and then upgraded the property to house 64 rooms in 1966-67 according to their own written history. Also, their own written history doesn't even talk about the creation of the Clamato, it's only mentioned on the page talking about the bar. I tried to confirm the date the bar was built or when it got its liquors licences or when it was registered as a business to confirm or disprove the story definitively but hit a brick wall as Mexico's digital records are nonexistent.

In all likely hood, there is a combination of white lies in play with the biggest being that the hotel invented the Clamato. by the website's own admission the original version of their "clamato" wasn't even made with Clam broth but abalone broth and as mentioned by the secondary sources the original name for their product was "curacrudas"(also seen it called Mata crudas (hangover killer in English apparently)). I furthered my search by targeting Mexican websites***, finding mostly the same as the English websites just learning a couple of extra bits of information. according to a couple of websites, I have read the "Secretaría de Turismo de Baja California" (Baja tourist board) even endorses the Clamato claim, though I couldn't fact check that. and apparently, the clamato with beer was invented in 1972 in another border town.

I think this is sufficient enough evidence that their claim is just advertising, the most you could say is they converged on the recipe like the Canadians did when they made the Bloody Ceaser around the same time Motts made their version of the recipe. All this is moot though as even though they may have started making it around that time there is documentation showing Americans have been producing it all the way back in 1935.

It would appear that Mexico (at least the Baja) truly loves its Clamato as a quick google search brings up at least a dozen bars and restaurants that have Clamato in their name.

For the most part from what I have observed it's not even straight-up Clamato they care about but rather an alcoholic clamato drink that goes by many different names like Chavela, Clamato con Cerveza, Clamato con Chela, Clamato Michelada and Michelada con Clamato. with this attachment to Clamato, lots of people want to claim some ownership of it even when there is clear documentation to the contrary, whether it's the Canadians with their Ceasers or the Mexicans with their Chavela. It doesn't help that said documentation for the longest time was hard to come by.

It doesn't help the rumours of Motts stealing the product seeing as they claim the product was invented in California pretty much right next to "clamato" ground zero in Mexico.**** thought this doesn't seem to be mentioned by people when telling the story of the alleged theft.

A counterargument to this point I'd like to make is what difference does the location make? The Albertans (Canadians) made an alcoholic Clamato and they're hundreds of kilometres from the border. Another question I have to ask is really how pervasive was clamato in Mexico back when Clamato was being invented, it took until 1972 for someone to make it alcoholic, in Canada it took to 1973~ for the Ceaser to become mainstream in only Alberta.

Another aspect is cultural, I believe the Mexican people have been screwed by America and its people so many times through out their culture they refuse to look at the facts and just think. "another one of our cultural treasures is being appropriated by the Americans." without questioning whether it's inherently theirs because the sad fact of the matter is it usually is. Hell, it's a known fact that the guy who started [Taco Bell stole] the hard crust taco recipe from his local Mexican restaurant a couple of decades before Motts Clamato came into existence. To claim the same of motts isn't unfounded. The fact that an American company controls so much of their beloved drink to the point their brand name has replaced the local name for the product must drive their nationalists mad.

The-Clamato-A-Baja-California-Invention-and-the-Perfect-Cure-for-a-Hangover (published 2017/08/23) https://www.discoverbaja.com/2018/04/02/mexicalis-hotel-lucerna/ (published 2018/04/03 (has image likely sourced from the hotel website with the claim that clamato was invented there) https://www.craftbeering.com/clamato-beer-recipe/ (published 2019/08/08)

https://hoteleslucerna.com/grupo-lucerna (history page) https://hoteleslucerna.com/gastronomia/ (clamato page)

https://www.excelsior.com.mx/nacional/2017/08/20/1182778 (originally posted on https://www.vice.com/es/article/wjjx89/clamato-el-origen-del-famoso-curacrudas (published 2017/08/20) https://web.archive.org/web/20080919181237/http://clamatosla20.com/html/historia.html (published at least Sept/19/2008) https://adriw.com/c-mexico/clamato/ https://www.animalgourmet.com/2017/07/13/clamato-con-cerveza/(Published 2017/07/13)

https://www.clamatouk.com/our-story

All links have been preserved on the Wayback Machine.

Overall I think my research is fairly accurate and as good as it's going to be but I would appreciate a different perspective as I may have missed something or someone else may have a different take on this. Ultimately, I think the only thing we can do is revert the page whenever it's vandalized and stick to the facts. ATCkit (talk) 01:55, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The IPA key says the second A is the same as the vowel in cat. Where is that from? It should be either cluh-may-to in North America or cluh-mah-to in Mexico and the UK, no? Alexandermoir (talk) 08:08, 14 July 2022 (UTC)