Talk:Charlie Dove

Latest comment: 5 years ago by Nzd in topic Belton story

Belton story

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If anyone can find a decent rebuttal for this, it should definitely be added. The story is most probably nonsense and originates from Brian Belton, the supposed descendant. Given that it's part of West Ham "folklaw", I probably wouldn't get rid of it completely, but it certainly needs a large truckload of salt heaped onto it! Nzd (talk) 21:27, 12 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

For background, I thought it'd be useful to summarise the confusion surrounding this story, which originates from Brian Belton's Miscellany (2006) book (the section, on pages 2–4 is "adapted from Founded on Iron, 2003". I couldn't find this part in that book, although I haven't read it thoroughly):


The problem is the highly ambiguous sentence "My grandfather, Jim Belton, told me that Charlie Dove, a local man who played for Old Castle Swifts, Thames Ironworks and West Ham, got the kits 'cheap' from his father William", which has been misinterpreted as meaning Dove's father, rather than Jim Belton's. The error was long-standing in various Wikipedia articles (including this one, and the main club article), and can be seen in various articles on the web (either because they have used information from Wikipedia or because they've made the same mistake).

We know that William is Jim's father and not Charlie Dove's because Brian provides some family history in his War Hammers book (page 11):


We also know that Charlie Dove's father was named George (not William), as this is stated, along with a picture of him, in John Powles' Iron in the Blood (page 98).

Sources:

  • Belton, Brian (2006). West Ham United Miscellany. Pennant Books. ISBN 0-9550394-4-4.
  • Belton, Brian (2014). War Hammers I: The Story of West Ham United During the First World War. The History Press. ISBN 978-0-7509-5601-7.
  • Powles, John (2005). Iron in the Blood. Nottingham: SoccerData. ISBN 1 899468 22 6.

Since my comment above, Steve Marsh has written a Myths and Legends article, which I'll attempt to work in at some point. Nzd (talk) 03:52, 28 December 2018 (UTC)Reply