Talk:Cellophane noodles

Other names?

Can a Chinese speaker verify (and add, if they're accurate) these alternate names: fen si, dong fen, tung hoon? Badagnani 07:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

When I grew up (in Taiwan) the only name I knew for them was "dong fen." That Jason 00:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; can you provide the hanzi for this? Does "dong" stand for "Shandong"? Badagnani 09:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No; the dong in Shandong means east (Shandong means "east of the mountain"; I can't remember the mountain's name off the top of my head) and the dong in dong fen means "winter." Here's a link to the hanzi- http://big5.waiyu.org:9001/?cjk=%A5V%AF%BB Glad I could help. That Jason 22:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Saifun: probably Vietnamese

Saifun is neither Japanese nor American name. According to Malony Inc. of Japan who sells Malony Harusame Saifun in US,[1] saifun is used by Vietnamese-Americans. Saifun does not appear on the package of Japanese version of Malony.[2] --Jjok 03:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's Vietnamese -- I think they're bun tau or bun tao in that language. 24.93.190.134 22:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it may be analagous to mai fun (the Cantonese name for mi fen, or rice noodles). The question is, in Cantonese silk is si, not sai. So in which dialect is "silk" pronounced sai? 24.93.190.134 22:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually Saifun comes from Taishanese. It is not from Cantonese. The Cantonese word for cellophane noodles is fan2 si1. In Taishanese, the word for cellophane noodles is thlai2 fun1, but because of the nature of its pronunciation, the initial consonant cluster "thl-" experienced a consonant shift to the "s-" initial by those who could not pronounce the original word. Because of this, thlai2 fun1 became pronounced by many as "saifun." This also historically makes sense, because cellophane noodles sold under the name "Saifun" are usually sold in American markets, and Taishanese made up the majority of Chinese-Americans up until the 1970's. Cantonese and Mandarin immigrants did not come until around the 1970's from places such as Taiwan, China, and Hong Kong. Before then though, the overwhelming majority of Chinese-American immigrants was from Taishan and the Szeyup Region. The article should be changed to note that "saifun" originates from the Taishanese variant of Chinese, not Cantonese. The proposal that "saifun" comes from Cantonese is preposterous; even on the Cantonese page for this article it never once uses 細粉 (saifun) but only 粉絲 (fan2 si1) to refer to cellophane noodles. The facts presented here are simply what is right. Please correct the article as soon as possible. 68.123.110.91 (talk) 04:25, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Need verification on another name

Need verification from a Chinese speaker on this alternate name: 粉条 - fěntiáo Badagnani 23:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I can only say this is not used in Cantonese regions. The Guangdong style Fensi is made from green beans. Fentiao can refer to any made from "fen" (powder)... even in Guangdong, for example, "fen" made from wheat can be of different styles. Fentiao is a very general term.--Fitzwilliam 14:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Uh I think fen tiao refers to the flat noodles 河粉 or sometimes the bundled up "package" of 粉絲 fen si (not the bag but the noodles themselves) look like a stick so they're called 粉條 fen tiao (ie 一條條) BUTTT this is definitely more a marketing/package usage to describe the noodles and mainly a term invented for restaurants, not directly referring to the noodle or a dish. I would probably ask a sous chef to get some fentiao..:DavuMaya:. 05:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Fen

Does fen mean, in this context, "soft white noodle" or "winter white noodle"? Both are given here. Wiktionary says it means "powder," so any explanation would be helpful. Thank you, Badagnani 23:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

fen means powder, but it's also short for any non-wheat noodle type food (hence the "white noodle"), i think? --Sumple (Talk) 13:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

To clarify further, fen is short for 粉麵 which means noodles made out of flour and so it was shortened to fen for daily usage (a common linguistic transition, ie parmigiano-reggiano to parmesan). fen si again is flour-silk so flour noodles that are as thin as silk. in other usage 粉 has expanded into its own category which can take form in large sheets or "pancake" but basically yes the product is made from flour. Dim Sum cheung fen (chang fen) or 長粉 noodle stick is an example..:DavuMaya:. 06:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this excellent info--I have never heard this before. The Chinese custom of "abbreviation" has caused some confusion with food names in other articles as well. Badagnani 06:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Change of characters

Can the editor who changed all the characters here please explain his/her edit? Badagnani 04:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Another traditionalist fundamentalist. --Sumple (Talk) 07:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's poor editing in any case, as it's confusing. This person could have added both traditional and simplified rather than just switching, as some editors try to do by changing American spellings to British ones for basically no reason. Now I suppose one of us has to clean up. Badagnani 07:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I nominate you :D coz I'm off to dinner. --Sumple (Talk) 07:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I will make a terrible biased opinion that perhaps more people associate this noodle with southern China (yes I know the north produces it) and its popularity and dish creations are more well known with Canto cuisine. For other instances of proper names such as more northern cities, they should use Simplified as it represents their locality's usage of the written language. WP, to be encyclopedic, tries to reflect actual society rather than what is considered standard..:DavuMaya:. 06:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

綠豆麵?? I have never heard of anyone using this term

seriously, who made this term up, it sounds so awkward.

Yeah sounds weird. Perhaps a northern term? --Sumple (Talk) 03:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There aren't just a few Google hits: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%E7%B6%A0%E8%B1%86%E9%BA%B5&btnG=Search . Can some of you read Chinese? Look through some sites and see if it's discussing cellophane noodles. I think they are. The term just means "green bean noodles," which is what they are. Badagnani 03:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, most of them talk about bean-paste face masks (綠豆面膜 = Green bean face mask).

A lot of others are talking about mung bean noodles - as in, noodles made from rice flour + mung beans + vegies. Some of them were websites of manufacturers and didn't list ingredients, but their other products were ordinary noodles, so I think they would be talking about the noodles too.

One link [3] was about something similar to cellophane noodles, and made from mung bean + sweet potato. But they are green, and "the thickness of chopsticks", and come from Yandang Mountain in Zhejiang

I stopped at the 5th page. --Sumple (Talk) 05:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ha! So the chopstick noodles are the only ones that are similar to cellophane noodles? How interesting. If you feel like going through a few more and seeing what you find, you can supplement the article accordingly. Badagnani 05:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this one describing cellophane noodles? Or this one? Badagnani 05:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The first one [4] is the mung bean noodles I was talking about - it lists ingredients as mung bean, rice, green vegetables, starch, and vegetable oil (绿豆面以绿豆、大米、绿叶蔬菜以及淀粉、菜油为原料). I don't know whether it is the same as cellophane noodles.

But I suspect that it might be same thing as this one.

They look a bit dark compared to Longkou fensi, but I guess it depends on whether the texture is more like cellophane noodles, or wheat/rice flour noodles? --Sumple (Talk) 05:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

They do look a bit dark in color. I just bought some of that company's black rice noodles and think I remember seeing the mung bean ones in the store the other day. This site seems to be referring to adulteration of mung bean noodles using the term "lu dou mian." Badagnani 05:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The ingredients are listed here. Badagnani 05:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so we can agree, from the available evidence, that "lu dou mian" is not a common term referring to cellophane noodles. Badagnani 05:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

So uh, why is the term still in the article then, if it's agreed that it's not a proper term for it? I personally know this as fen si, which is duly noted as the common Cantonese term for it, and I am Cantonese. NobleHelium 03:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you check this webpage to see what these are? Badagnani 03:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

These two products seem to be "lu dou mian": [5] and [6] Badagnani 03:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

This article also seems to be referring to "fensi" with the term "lu dou mian": [7] Badagnani 03:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

This Chinese company clearly labels their mung bean noodles as "lu dou mian": [8] Badagnani 03:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why you're having a debate. 綠豆麵 is 綠豆麵 and 粉絲 is 粉絲. if you want "lu dou mian" then request "lu dou mian" instead of "fen si." I think some of you need to eat out more often :) .:DavuMaya:. 06:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

What are you saying 綠豆麵 is, actually? What is its appearance, use, and ingredients, and is it a newly invented product rather than a traditional one? The debate is whether 綠豆麵 is another name for cellophane noodles, 綠豆 meaning "mung beans," from whose starch Chinese cellophane noodles are usually produced. Badagnani 06:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

哎呀你们～～～～～～～ http://www.keko.com.cn/material/material_1144742726000_1602.html Green Bean Noodle is a different type of noodle and not Fen Si ok. And honestly why are the participants here trying to surmise information off Chinese websites when they don't understand the context of them to begin with (that is assuming you can read Chinese at all). And btw WP policy states Google hits is not a precedent for notability. As well this discussion is fruitless in that it doesn't even have a simple mastery of the language context. 麵 is not 粉絲 its not 粉 its not 河粉. That would be like me saying Macaroni and Cheese is the same as Spaghetti and Cheese or that Lasagne noodles are just bread. Sure your little translator dictionary whatever tells you its "noodle" but what kind of noodle? What does it look like? How is it used? On the reverse, in Chinese ravioli translates into simply noodle, but we know ravioli is quite different. Just knowing these little simple differences in language would have nullified the question in the beginning. And so this incessant need to study and document this simple noodle product on Wikipedia is in actuality distorting it beyond reality to the point where I want to delete out 60 percent of this article because it makes no sense to me, nor can I find a single online source for any of it! But because I have a bit of faith in WP and that the users mercilessly editing this page really love cellophone noodles, I shall not auto-destruct this article for its lack of context and sources. .:DavuMaya:. 09:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Fen si is pinyin for thin noodles of flour. If you want green bean noodles that are like vermicelli then you want liu dou fen si. Some parts of the south of China you may see Lu as I've seen that on packaging but it is liu dou or green beans in Mandarin. If you want wider noodles then fen tiao, kwan fen tiao (wider) or even kwan fen pi (wider still). Fen here means flour and si is the size of the noodles just as we name Italian pasta. The word si does come from silk but it is used here for the size just as tou fa si is thin hair. So you can order little green bean noodles and call them liu dou fen si.

I see no reason to criticize others who are just trying to clarify. It doesn't help nor does it help to give information that is erroneous. You lose something with pin yin. There are many ways to say things in differing areas of China. Fen si may be fen tiao or fen pi or fen or it may sound like fen tiao-er (sounds like ti-ar). There are more ways to say this I don't know. This is why I generally try to use Mandarin. 粉丝 is fen si in simplified Mandarin. 粉条 is fen tiao. 粉皮 is fen pi.

If you are picking up packages in the store look at where it is made and that gives you an inkling it may not be Mandarin if it comes from say Hong Kong, Guangzhou or Taiwan. But it might be. Look at the back and you will see what it is made of. If you like the size, makeup, and taste of it then ok. Keep in mind that's what it says on the packaging. Jobberone (talk) 22:06, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

In different cuisines

Are there notable differences besides those already listed? I've noticed how Korean dangmyeon are always slightly thicker than what is usually sold as "Asian vermicelli" – can anybody confirm that? If you know whether one type (thickness, ingredients) is dominant in any particular area, perhaps that should be mentioned. Thank you for all those food articles. Wikipeditor 01:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

In China they have the thin ones (fen si, "si" meaning "silk") and also the thicker, more Korean-looking ones. I see them in the Chinese grocery store. They're used for different purposes. The thin ones could be used for hot pots and spring roll fillings, and the thicker ones are probably used more for japchae-like stir fries. But I'm not sure, as I am not Chinese. Badagnani 01:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

there are also regional varieties within China - in the northeast you would find ones which are similar (or identical) to the Korean variety. Thick ones can be used in salad-like cold dishes. --Sumple (Talk) 11:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I hope this isn't too original-research-y. Wikipeditor 02:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure Korean's don't use thin cellophane noodles, ever, in any of their dishes? I've not seen such noodles used, but I'm not sure about that claim. Badagnani 03:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

My bad. If none of us has seen them yet, of course that doesn't mean they don't exist. Wikipeditor 03:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, please people go eat out more often to discover it yourself. Probably all Asian cultures who use this noodle-type also utilize all variations of it. I have multiple times had both thin and fat versions in Korean dishes. Thin ones in a spicy broth and in a cold pickled dish. Thick ones in a savory meat dish and in a similar noodle soup. Gam bi bop? I don't know what the dishes are called but go out and eat!.:DavuMaya:. 06:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Your expertise is appreciated, but please be aware that some of us live in regions with only a few Korean restaurants, whose menus may not include the thin-dangmyeon dish(es) you are describing. None of our experiences is complete, thus we can all improve this encyclopedia. What you say means that either dangmyeon can also be thin, or that Koreans are purchasing Longkou vermicelli and using it in Korean dishes. Badagnani 06:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Filipino cuisine, I find it intriguing that "sotanghon" sounds so close to Indonesian "soun" + Malaysian "tanghoon." Any evidence that "sotanghon" came from these two languages, given the fact that Tagalog is belongs to the Malay family of languages? I'd find this a better statement than "because of the popular dish of the same name made from them." Radbasa (talk) 11:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, regarding Filipino cuisine, more accurately, it is called sotanghon in Filipino because it is borrowed from the Hokkien "sooa tang hoon" or "tang hoon". "sooa tang hoon" means noodles from Shandong. "Tang hoon" means "winter noodles" (alternatively also a shortcut of "sooa tang hoon" thus "eastern noodles"). That also explains the Malaysian "tanghoon" because of the prevalence of Hokkien or Amoy immigrants, similar to the Philippines. There is also, technically no Filipino dish called "sotanghon", there is chicken sotanghon soup, sotanghon guisado to name a few. Thus sotanghon really refers to the noodles themselves.195.229.237.42 (talk) 06:47, 22 November 2010 (UTC)Ken

Also Tagalog does not belong to the Malay family of languages. Malay is a language in itself, not a cluster of languages. Both are Malayo-Polynesian languages, though. Big difference. It's like saying Ilocano belongs to the Tagalog family of languages.--121.58.194.98 (talk) 07:36, 2 October 2012 (UTC)JAE

Box

The romanizations in the box need to appear for all languages. Badagnani 23:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The romanizations in the box still need to appear for all languages (including Japanese and Korean)! Badagnani 17:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Clarifying edit summary

Re: [9], the first link is a press release and is overly promotional. The second gives me a warning saying that the page has been host to malicious software. -Ronz (talk) 18:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary linking, hidden comments, and photo links

Re: [10], the hidden comment and photo links are definitely inappropriate. Given that non of the subsequent restoration of this information included even an edit summary, I've assuming that the wiktionary linking is equally inappropriate. --Ronz (talk) 03:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

We are all entitled to your opinions; in this case, your summary and insistent removal of Wiktionary links explaining the Chinese-language terms, as well as various references (as seems to be the primary and only thing you do at Wikipedia), does not enhance this article for our readers. Badagnani (talk) 03:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

None of the links removed are references. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Badagnani for a summary of previous problems almost identical to this concerning inappropriate links and "references". --Ronz (talk) 04:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Health Concerns

It seems to me that the section "In December 2010, Czech food inspection authorities (SZPI) again inspected Chinese cellophane noodles, this time determining that 142,00 mg/kg of Aluminium, which is an illegal amount for food in Czech (and EU) market, had been used in the production of the noodles." is perhaps somewhat sensationalized, as it does not tell the reader how much of the food was tested to find this amount of aluminium. I would suggest either adding the missing number, or else removing the specific number above (142,00) since on its own it is meaningless. - AK - May 9, 2011 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.70.83.226 (talk) 16:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

How it's made

There is no indication on how to produce this type of noodle. Yes it's starch but how does one transform starch into a noodle? Is this a carefully guarded secret? 198.2.5.101 (talk) 15:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

translation

the french translation link redirects to dangmyeon could anyone fix that please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.149.95.200 (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

The stub article Mung bean sheet may be merged into this article, as mung been sheets are nothing more than thicker/flatter mung bean glass noodles. The article has been a very short stub for quite a long time and the merging should not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. --Postcol (talk) 11:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

• Not agree. 粉皮 and 粉絲 are different kind of noodles, as different as Fettuccine and Capellini --Hoseneru23 (talk) 21:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)