Talk:Card flourish

XCM being a derivation of Cardistry...

Elementals, perching, fire, variable surfaces are included in "Cardistry". Cardistry in general popular use today does not card magic, and generally seeks to describe the same art form that "XCM" also tries to describe. What most people call "XCM" could be more suitably classified as a sub-category of Cardistry called something like "Xtreme Cardistry".

Good addition, the Cardistry article.

Thanks for sourcing Jerry's book. If you can add anything to Flourish as well, that be great! Also... is it possible that Jerry defines what "Manipulation" means in jargon terminology? I'm on the hunt for a definition (or two, or ten) I can source, it'd help me out with some edits in other articles. Thank you so much!

--Protocoldroid (talk) 03:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: Questions

Let me address the questions/comments edited in the page that I know off hand. That way we won't have a bunch of jumbled stuff in the article.

Q1) Blogs are usually not considered reliable sources, with rare exceptions.

A1) That may be true, but the gentlemen writing the blog is the the founder of decknique.com, the largest cardistry community. He's also one of the eleven in theory 11. I believe that makes him a reliable source.

Q2) Were questions about the terms on perching.

A2) I defined both of the terms and removed the questions within the page.

Q3) Question about other factions of Cardistry.

A3) I need to change the word Variety, since as of now, it is only Cardistry and it's variant XCM. I'm searching for a word to replace that. Edit: I changed Variety to Variants. As of now, XCM seems to be the only variant.

Q4) Aren't Cut Displays (I changed the name to Display Cuts) the same as packet displays.

A4) I suppose so, but for Cardistry they are almost always referred to as Display Cuts. I can source it to Jerry Cestkowski's book. It's mentioned and as far as cardistry is concerned, is one of the biggest and most complete sources of the art.

I'll get to writing the description for each of the Cardistry Categories as soon as I have a chance to.

@Protocol: Jerry's book was written completely without magic references and before the term "manipulation" was used in relation to cardistry. I do believe the Jerry has written online that he erroneously named his book in terms of today, because there was no real word for flourishes as their own art form. So the book remains Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes.

Jerry now uses the term "XCM" to describe the non-magical use of playing cards. NOT Cardistry as cardistry is card magic.

That's all I can think of right now. I'll do some additional research beyond what I have already and try to get those Categories defined ASAP. Cottyp (talk) 05:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Cottyp, excellent clarifications. Yeah, the term manipulation gets tossed around a lot, and Im interested in the "Card Manipulation" article, however -- no one can yet define the term. Even though it's used all over the place, some people use it to describe heavy duty flourishing, and yet it's used in modern history in such things as the title of T. Nelson Downs book "Modern Coin Manipulation" (which I think is like circa 1900) and even in a book from last year, "Close-Up" by David Stone, he speaks of "Cigarette Manipulation" in which he's using it in the context of impromptu cigarette magic. I'll be keeping on the hunt for a reference-able definition :) Keep up the great work. --Protocoldroid (talk) 14:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge

Resolved

 – Proposal rescinded by proponent before any discussion occurred.

Card flourish, a very undeveloped article, should be merge into and redirected to this one, to make an overall better article. The flourish topic is simply nothing but what cardists do. This is one of the most obvious merges I've ever seen, really. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind; I missed that Card flourish applies to both Cardistry and Card manipulation. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There is now a more refined section merge proposal, at Talk:Card flourish#Merge proposal. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Cardistry != card magic

Cardistry should not be merged with card magic. It's more popular use today is closest to what "flourishing" and "XCM" often try to describe today. The word "cardistry" has been used in very few publications, but never caught on. If you talk to most people today, search YouTube or Google for "cardistry", you will more often than note get non-magical results.

So currently Cardistry redirects to "Card flourish", as it's the closest to the currently widespread accepted definition of Cardistry. In reality, the "Card flourish" article isn't well-organized, and should be re-written anyways.

It is also found that most opposed to the term "Cardistry" in a non-magical term are generally people who are supporting the "XCM" terminology and trying to disprove the "Cardistry" term for their own sake.

This article is not about card magic - it's about the performance art of cardistry. Two VERY different things. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your prize!) 18:52, 25 January 2016 (UTC)