Talk:Capitalism/Archive 23

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Pope Benedict's recent criticism of Capitalism

There should be some information about Pope Benedict's recent criticism of capitalism in this article. --PaladinWriter 17:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure one person's criticism (even as important as the pope may be to some people) should be included unless it's very substantial and ongoing, since this is a comprehensive subject. The Pope simply criticized "unfettered" communism, which could mean something different to everyone. He also criticized Marxism. I don't think it would be particularly useful to include.--Gloriamarie 23:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

P.R. Sarkar

Is not a amjor theorist of capitalism, for example not cited in academic literature.Ultramarine 23:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarkar is a major theorist of capitalism, but not an economist. Moreover, he is Indian, which may work against him. Ultramarine is invited to expand his horizons by reading the following works by Ravi Batra

• "The Downfall of Capitalism and Communism: a New Study of History" (MacMillan, 1978)
• " PROUT and Economic Reform in India (AM Press, 1980)
• "The Great Depression of 1990" (Simon and Schuster, 1987) - #1 NY Times bestseller

and much, much more. Actually, Dr.Batra's has devoted his career to expanding on the insights of P.R. Sarkar relating to Capitalism, also in particular the social dynamics, in numerous articles in peer reviewed journals in economics. The futurists Sohail Inayatullah and peace sociologist Johan Galtung have devoted much attention to Sarkar in works like:

• Situating Sarkar: Tantra, Macrohistory and Alternative Futures (Gurkula Press, 1999)
• Macrohistory and Macrohistorians (Greenwood, 1996)
• Economics in another key

Galtung has even written: "Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar will stand as one of the greats of this century". Ofthe1780s 23:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

There are numerous bestsellers, no reason to include one in particular. Neither Sarkar or Batra are important in the peer-reviewed literature.Ultramarine 00:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the assessment. It is unfair if only because we must keep in mind that we are dealing with a minority of "critics" and they don´t enjoy favour in mainstream theory. Ofthe1780s 00:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

There are at least tens of thousands of not well-known economists and philosophers, many claiming that just they deserve more recognition for their very important works. But in Wikipeida we can only look at what the academic world thinks. When these people are recognized as of major importance in the academic literature, then we can include them in a very broad summary article like this one.Ultramarine 00:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

How does one decide wether a work is academic or not? If it's reviewed and approved by "some people" it might be included? So is the wikipedia in this way also censured by academics (politics)? Shouldn't there be some kind of vote method implemented, or some other way to decide for this kind of subject, that is so heavily censured by western (and eastern) politicians? Do people have no right to know what censured writers say? Mr soros 23:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Sarkar was imprisoned by Indira Gandhi's regime and became famous in India as a leader of a socio spiritual movement, Ananda Marga, fighting the rampant political corruption of their special strain of state-run-capitalism. Your proposed criteria of peer-reviewed western economics journals is way too narrow. Ofthe1780s 00:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Then add that to an India article. Again, there are numerous people claiming to be important and not recognized. Wikipedia is not the place to correct this, read WP:SOAP.Ultramarine 00:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarkar is a major contributor to economics. Should we move the other Capitalism contributors to their respective home country pages. Adam Smith became famous in Scotland and England and France shortly after death. Karl Marx, however, died in 1864 and did not become world famous for his contribution until over half a century later, in 1917. So global recognition can vary. Sarkar died in 1990, and I expect his recognition for his contribution will come also in the West, but likely not until we have another major economic calamity or environmental disaster. He was also a leading contributor on sustainable economics. Ofthe1780s 01:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I have looked, and very few people cite Sarkar. When they do, we can add him.Ultramarine 01:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

As I said, this is a too narrow criteria identified by you, to focus on the peer-reviewed journals of America, as clearly Sarkar is a much more important all-round contributor to the question of capitalism, than many of note in the American economics academic community. You then chose to ignore the contributions of best selling author Ravi Batra, in the field of economics, concerning the sustainability of capitalism (of all things!) on the various theories of Sarkar, as well as not thinking it makes a difference they represent a miniorty view and come from Asia, where Sarkar is much better known as a theoretical critic of Capitalism. I disagree with you and will "request comment" from other editors on your insistence to exclude Sarkar. Ofthe1780s 10:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

In Wikipedia we follow Wikipedia's rules. If you want to promote a theory, this is not the place.Ultramarine 10:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. No one should be allowed to steer an article in the direction of their private views, whether it be a "Liberal Market" approach or something else, and exclude other elements not dovetailing to that approach. Wikipedia is not the place for such behaviour. I will initiate the procedure.Ofthe1780s 11:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

And in Wikipedia peer-reviewed articles are the most reliable sources and these persons are little cited in them. If you want to change Wikipedia policy, there are other articles for that.Ultramarine 11:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It is clear that this approach to define selection criteria is "too narrow". It is forced reliance on a priviliged debate among intellectuals at the service of a 'former' (Soviet communism) or 'present' (Western capitalism) ruling class agenda and does not reflect developments and currents in the real world sufficiently with an eye to the 'future' of the World. Among students of the potential future global development of Capitalism, Sarkar is a major figure. He early on suggested that both Soviet Communism and Western Capitalism were unsustainable social formations, both from the perspective of global human needs, with two thirds of the worlds children mired in poverty, but also environmental factors, with the ice caps rapidly melting. If you are looking in the journals of present American universities for the cutting edge debate on these issues you would not come across much if any of it. Only if you look into Time Magazine it is possible you may find some nascent recognition of these issues, also reflected in comments of Democrat politicians trying to secure that their candidate reaches the US Presidency in 2008. Because of the self-editing nature of capitalism, in particular in the USA, such critical debate is actively suppressed among the intellectuals in institutions relying on private funding. Even if Dr. Batra achieved best selling authorship in America, his substantial critical contribution has been surpressed through a form of peer 'vilification' or disapproval. I suppose it is a part and parcel of the 'freedom of speech' in ultra-capitalist USA and all that. If this approach of criteria selection is upheld, as you say, it will only serve to show that Wikipedia is a peculiarly American and not global dictionary. Ofthe1780s 11:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is English Wikipedia. If you wnat to change policy, there are other pages for this. Sarker is not cited in peer-reviewed article and Batra's bestseller made him rich but his prediction failed.Ultramarine 12:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Your comments reek of bias. Batra is only an advocate of Sarkar's ideas. You are correct that his prediction for a stock crash failed in the USA (but were realised in Japan, followed by a 15 year quiet depression). Even then, I expect you are ignorant of the fact that Batra was the first theoretician in the US to point out the crucial impact of stock appreciation on the dynamics of US Capitalism. His view is that the shift to a fiat driven monetary policy in the 1970s, created the scope for relaxing the previous liquidity constraint for monetary policy. This development is in his view what has saved capitalism. At the same time, the development has created a fearsome balloon of financial leverage, which could implode. Batra is a cutting edge analyst of modern day financial capitalism. Of course, such insights are completely missing from the article. As a result, the article is just a stilted historical piece. It is vacuous when it comes to the real important issues on financial and environmental sustainability. What a farce your editorial approach really is.Ofthe1780s 12:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, read WP:SOAP. When they are notable in peer-reviewed literature, then they should be included. If you want to change policy, there are other aticles for that.Ultramarine 12:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your position.I think you are conveniently interpreting WP:SOAP in the most narrow conceivable manner. The information is not Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. It is not Self-promotion. Neither is it Advertising. It is part of a living debate in society, and not restricted to the priviliged discourse of US universities. Your ignorance of it is not a valid criteria.Ofthe1780s 12:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, there are at least tens of thousands of unknown philosophers and economists. Only the most prominent can be included. In Wikipedia and science, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed articles. If you want to dispute Wikipedia policy, this is not the page.Ultramarine 12:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ideas reaching '#1 on a New York Times Best-seller list are notable enough. Ofthe1780s 12:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

There are hundreds of books that have done that. Making a failed prediction is not evidence for importance in economics of philosophy, quite the contrary.Ultramarine 12:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

These were ideas specific to the development of Capitalism. You are not seriously proposing there has been another non-fiction book in the area of economics that has reached that exalted position of #1 on the NYT best seller list, are you? The failure of the prediction is one thing. The analysis of the system dynamics is quite another. The former was a unique contribution of Batra. The latter was based on the original ideas of Sarkar. Your arguments are self-serving and suggest you are using Wikipedia in violation of WP:SOAP policy.Ofthe1780s 13:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Notable theories are cited in peer-reviewed papers. Failed sensational predictions may make the author rich, but is not evidence importance in science.Ultramarine 13:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to have a conversation of parrots. See above replies.Ofthe1780s 13:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I see no reply. Regarding this deletion, it is a false comparison. This is part of Sarkar's "solution" while what Bentham did was not related to his theories.Ultramarine 13:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

This reference you identified concerning the sixten points are behavioural guidelines for the spiritual monks and nuns and social workers of Ananada Marga. As noted, it is part of the Indian episteme, which is 180° different from the Western axiomatic precepts of materialism and individualism leading to optimisation of social outcomes. Those micro-issues are not directly related to the macro-ideas concerning capitalism, but if you want to broaden the discussion on Sarkar by introducing those in the article then that is a wholly different issue. Jeremy Bentham was a scientific materialist and viewed his corpus as worthy of post-mortem study or admiration. It could be considered an aspect of his philosophical approach, which is somewhat creepy. What is it exactly you are proposing for inclusion in the article relating to Sarkar? Please keep in mind the Wikipedia policy of a fair and balanced presentation. Ofthe1780s 14:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to include what looks like a religous movement. There are numerous such movements, all claiming to have a better soluction to the world's problems, but they are still not notable economic theories.Ultramarine 14:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I see no basis for reaching an understanding with you on this issue. The discussion needs to be broadened. Ofthe1780s 14:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Unless you can find support for these persons being notable in the academic literature, there is no reason to include them. All religous movements have some views on capitalism, and if including them, then there are many larger movements that should be included first.Ultramarine 14:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Your desperate effort to identify new criteria to dismiss the information as irrelevant is interesting. Again, the discussion will need to be broadened. I suggest the first approach is to ask for WP:THIRD.Ofthe1780s 15:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

You have still not shown that these are important theories in the academic literatue. Maybe it could have a brief sentence in a section called "Religous views on capitalism" or something similar.Ultramarine 15:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but you are exhibiting a bias in this discussion, now with regard to the presentation. These ideas, like any idea in principle, need to be presented in their own context and in relation to the discussion in general. To pinpoint the criticism of capitalism - the distributional, financial and environmental imbalances - as religious is not fair or balanced. The solution proposed by Sarkar is based on a acceleration of the spiritual component of life. It is not religious in the sense of a western church, with all due respect, which is lacking in a dynamic spiritual philosophy and practice, with a majority of its western members apparently having been co-opted in the modern matrerialist paradigm of life and no longer really believing the gospel, considering it something akin to a fairy tale. As these ideas clearly come from an philosophical starting point, the Indian episteme, that is alien to you and you clearly do not comprehend, it is not fitting that you describe it. A comparable approach would be to explain earlier capitalist ideas as "Greed-based views on capitalism" or some such caricature. First lets sort out the issue of relevance and notability and then worry about the proper presentation. I will propose WP:THIRD at an early opportunity. Ofthe1780s 15:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The language you use is typical of religous movement, not science. Note that Buddhism and Confucianism are considered religions, despite having some differences to the Abrahamic religions.Ultramarine 15:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is just a waste of time. Please focus on the language of the proposed text and see if it deviates from the presentation standards of other sections in the article. Ofthe1780s 15:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of Sarkar

Request for Third opinion WP:THIRD in a disagreement about the inclusion of a sub-section on Sarkar's criticism and solution in the section on Critics of Capitalism in the article on Capitalism.19:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Ultramarine argues that this author is not cited enough in US peer-reviewed journal articles in economics to warrant inclusion.
• Ofthe1780s argues this author is well known in Asia and his ideas have been presented in many books, including one about capitalism that became #1 on New York Times bestseller list in 1987, such that he warrants inclusion.

The bestseller made the false prediction that the western economies would collapse in 1990, followed by seven years depression. The authors and theories are not cited in academic literature. Rather, this is promotion for a minor religious movement, Sarkar's Ananda Marga. The members of the movement are encouraged to follow the Sixteen Points, which includes things such as doing Sadhana (meditation and postures) twice a day, eating a vegetarian diet, abstaining from toxic substances, fasting, doing service to society everday, reading the writings daily, following the moral codes, and attending the weekly group meditations. All religous movements have some views on capitalism, and if they should be included, there are many more important ones.Ultramarine 20:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• The absurd logic of Ultramarine suggests that theorists of the Catholic faith would be suspect in terms of their views on Capitalism, as the Catholic church prescribes abstinence from sex by its priests, bans them from marrying, bans women from the priesthood, bans the use of contraceptives and abortion, and encourages its members to attend weekly mass and regularly eat the "body" of Christ and drink his "blood" .Ofthe1780s 20:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:Undue weight state :

NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority.

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well.

Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

Sarkar's viewpoint doesn't warrant him a subsection which would place him at an equal level of coverage in the dispute as the overall viewpoint of "criticism of capitalism" which give him as much coverage as "the mob" of non notable people like Karl Marx for example.

Joke aside the subsection should obviously be removed as non relevant per WP:Undue weight, the information inside could be merged with the criticism section, or simply removed from this article. To cite Jimbo :

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

— Esurnir 20:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Esurnir for weighing in. What remains is to judge the weight to assign to Sarkar's ideas. While the viewes are not mainstream, they represent an important contribution. The name of prominent adherents have been provided, such as Ravi Batra, Johan Galtung, Sohail Inayatullah and the nuns and monks of Ananda Marga. Ofthe1780s 20:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

A small minority religous movement. At most a single sentence, being generous.Ultramarine 21:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Ultramarine, but the matter can most definitely not be left up to your biased judgement. The issue will only be settled with a broad and POV free discussion. Ofthe1780s 22:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, there are numerous religious movements, and a small only gets a small space, if anyone at all.Ultramarine 23:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Due to stalemate concerning the amount of information or space to be given to Sarkar in this article, I am requesting comment by outside editors.Ofthe1780s 01:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the thrust of Esurnir's comments, particularly that Sarkar doesn't deserve a separate section when Marx doesn't have one, though I have some different reasoning. Looking at this historically, Marx's theory spawned a competing economic system for most of a century that competed with capitalist democracy and led to a Cold War that profoundly shaped the history of the 20th century in the superpowers of the time and every other country in the world. By contrast, Sarkar was the leader of a minority movement in India. I leave open the possibility that Sarkar's contribution to theory was equally important, but I haven't seen any sources to prove it. The best one is the NYT bestseller, which was written by someone else and probably sold that well due to the sensational predictions contained within. I don't see any evidence that Sarkar deserves a section other than Ofthe1780s' assertions that he does, which clearly doesn't cut it. Again, baring evidence of pre-existing notability of a leader in the field, his ideas must become notable first, then he gets included in Wikipedia. We're not a vehicle for minority theories to become popular in the Western world.--Chaser - T 20:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Extent of information on Sarkar

Request for comment WP:Rfc in a disagreement about the weight given to the inclusion of information about the ideas of P.R. Sarkar in the section on Critics of Capitalism in the article on Capitalism.01:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Ultramarine argues that this author is not cited enough in US peer-reviewed journal articles in economics to warrant much if any coverage. He also cites failed prediction of his adherent and his religious ideas as making his contribution suspect.
• Ofthe1780s argues this author is well known in Asia and his ideas have been widely disseminated, including by 'prominent adherents in e.g. a book about capitalism that became #1 on New York Times bestseller list in 1987. He also notes that contributions of adherents have resulted in notable insights into capitalist dynamics and that his contribution therefore warrants significant coverage.
• Esurnir has given third opinion above concerning the importance of WP:Undue weight for the consideration, arguing he does not deserve a sub-section giving him equal place to contributors like Karl Marx.

Ofthe1780s is currently blocked for 3RR violation regarding this. The bestseller made the false prediction that the western economies would collapse in 1990, followed by seven years of depression. The authors and the theories are not important in the academic literature. Rather, this is promotion for a minor religious movement, Sarkar's Ananda Marga. The members of the movement are encouraged to follow the Sixteen Points, which includes things such as doing Sadhana (meditation and postures) twice a day, eating a vegetarian diet, abstaining from toxic substances, fasting, doing service to society everday, reading the writings daily, following the moral codes, and attending the weekly group meditations.[1] All religous movements have some views on capitalism, and if they should be included, there are many more important ones. See also Esurnir's comments above, he stated "Joke aside the subsection should obviously be removed as non relevant per WP:Undue weight, the information inside could be merged with the criticism section, or simply removed from this article."Ultramarine 13:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The BBC describes Sarkar's movement as a Hindu religious cult. According to the BBC, "The cult is viewed with suspicion in India due to their unusual lifestyle, including spending time in graveyards and cremation grounds." The Indian supreme court has banned it from staging a dance ritual involving human bones in public.[2]Ultramarine 18:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The BBC also reports from a court case involving an arms drop in India "Prosecution lawyers said weapons on board - which included AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers, anti-tank grenades and thousands of rounds of ammunition - were intended for a religious cult in Bengal, the Ananda Marg."[3]Ultramarine 19:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

ABOUT THE FALSE RUMOURS BEING SPREAD BY ULTRAMARINE: The history of Sarkar and his Ananda Marga movement is controversial due to a campaign of vilification by corrupt authorities. Sarkar, who was a vocal critic of Communism and Capitalism, ran afoul of both the Marxist led government of Bengal and the oppressive government of Indira Gandhi. Both governments persecuted Sarkar and his followers. The 1982 massacre of 18 AM nuns and monks in Kalkota by a Marxist mob has become stuff of legend. The AM monks and nuns had for some years taken orphans of the streets and put them in schools run by the Ananda Marga Universal Relief Team (AMURT). For this they were accused of being "child stealers" by a mob incited by the leaders of the Marxist government of Bengal, which had become alarmed by the grass roots appeal of AM. The hypocrisy of the very same leaders is amazing, but they had up to that time easily tolerated orphaned children running naked, unprotected and hungry in the streets. These attacks have continued also in the adjacent Bihar region, with peaceful monks being hacked to death by sword wielding illiterate village mobs excited by marxist political organisers. Despite requests, the local government has seen fit to never give protection to the monks and nuns of AM, where they are most active, in the poorest and most destitute regions of India, battling poverty and ignorance at every step. Fortuantely, their good works are slowly changing the situation around, and the official persecution and manipulations have been ruled illegal and stopped. In the 1970s, the federal government of Indira Gandhi made things worse for Sarkar by acting on trumped up murder charges on him and he was unjustly imprisoned for six years. Only during the Emergency (India) in 1978, did Sarkar get a fair trial and was released. In the meantime the Central Bureau of India had sent out information to other intelligence agencies in the West falsely accusing Sarkar and his followers of terrorism. Once such information gets circulated it is hard to eradicate. It is still being spread about this peaceful but vocal humanitarian group. This is the rough and tumble world of politics where visionaries try to make things better but collide with the interests of a selfish few who do anything to retain their grip on power and privilige. By the way, the social system of India is described as State capitalism. The distribution of wealth is the most unequal there in the world. Importantly, the information in the article concerns only the ideas of Sarkar with regard to the inherent nature and dynamic of Capitalism. Specifically, it adds insight into the transformation of industrial into financial capitalism and what system dynamics this may entail, the consequence of which is still unknown. Finally, the information about the religious rites of the hindu religion should be understood for what they are; to teach spiritual aspirtants to overcome fear. It is no more "weird" than the symbolic practice of Christians to "eat" the flesh of Jesus and "drink" his blood. I am not an adherent of AM or Sarkar, but know that this information notable and warrants inclusion, notwithstanding people that trade in unjust and unsubstantiated rumours of vilification about Sarkar and his adherents as a means to suppress it due to their inherent POV in the matter. Ofthe1780s 19:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Everything I have stated is sourced, your claims are not.Ultramarine 19:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Not everything that gets printed in the press is the truth. A lie that is sourced like that, is still a lie. The information I have shared has been documented but not everything exists on the net. I have followed this case for some time. Ofthe1780s 19:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

In Wikipedia personal opinions and claims are not interesting. You need verifiable sources.Ultramarine 19:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

This is offered as background information, to rebut the false information spread by you. Again I would like to remind you to keep the focus on the information in the main article and not try to sidetrack that with unrelated information. Do you next want to talk about the intrigue surrounding the Pope and how that affects theories of catholics concerning Capitalism. For instance, was Pope John Paul I murdered? Who murdered the "Banker to God" and why? Who murdered the head of the Pope's bodyguards? etc. Ofthe1780s 20:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, in Wikipedia you need to use verifiable sources. Otherwise anyone can write anything. Sarkar claim to be a better alternative, so it is obviously intersting what his movement teaches and do in practice. Do you deny that these rituals described above are part of the movement?Ultramarine 20:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

What about the Pope? Why don't you go scoure the newspapers for sources on those stories? Ofthe1780s 20:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Underhanded behaviour of Ultramarine

My account was blocked for 12 hours on the request of Ultramarine. The way he went about it needs to be flagged for other editors here, to warn them about his underhanded tactics and POV efforts.

• There were no wholesale reverts performed on my part, just minor modifications of text in the article. The number of minor or partial reverts was below the stated 3 per 24 hour period. One should not count editing of existing text as a revert if it does not change the text of others.
• Importantly, before the decision to block I had initiated conflict resolution process, first with WP:THIRD and then WP:Rfc as Good faith effort to resolve dispute by involving other editors.
• The WP:3RR was initiated by Ultramarine during a bi-lateral content dispute, i.e. involving only the two of us. An independent editor commented that he would not have blocked the account on the grounds of the revert warring that was seen. It was not pronounced enough to warrant such an extreme measure.
• It is clear that Ultramarine has used this WP:3RR tool for political control; to apply pressure on myself as an editor in a content dispute.
• While my account was blocked, Ultramarine reverted the disputed edits and announced my blocked status on the talk page here as some sort of rationale for subsequent revert-edit activity by him of my insertions.
• While my account was blocked he then interfered with the WP:Rfc section which should not be altered, with an extreme characterisation, both inflammatory and wrong, of the information about Sarkar.
• The unmistakable conclusion emerges that Ultramarine is acting in violation of basic Wikipedia Good faith conduct. Ofthe1780s 18:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Two different administrators reviewed your editing and concluded that you had broken 3RR.[4]Ultramarine 19:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, the editor making the block has now changed his mind [[5]]. Ofthe1780s 22:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Your description is misleading. I reported the 3RR violation when Ofthe1780s refused to allow me to add critical material or even insert a disputed template. Much later Ofthe1780s asked for outside opinions (all of which have been critical). Even later he was blocked, it took a very long time between report and block.Ultramarine 23:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, the editor making the block did so well after the conflict resolution process had been initiated and discussed. My account was blocked when that process was well into the second stage WP:Rfc. This does not excuse your questionable tactics in a bi-lateral debate. You resorted to rules of technicality to finagle your POV agenda. Then you pretend to be judge of the appropriateness of a dispute where you are a hostile party. With behaviour like that, is it any wonder the world is filled with cynics? Ofthe1780s 23:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no control over the exact time you were blocked, I made my report much earlier. I reported you when you refused to allow me to add critical material, while you yourself continued to add material, and even deleted a disputed template I added.Ultramarine 23:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You have twice asked for outside views regarding your material, and both have been negative.[6][7] Ultramarine 23:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

As I explained to you, I removed the template as it was clear the claim you were questioning was valid. Your efforts were clearly motivated to make these ideas questionable, because you disagree with them. You were trying to force reality into the mold of your mind. That is not the criteria for information in Wikipedia. Don´t pretend to be "the victim" here, you are not. Your Talk page is full of statements by other editors to the fact that you are ...well read for yourself: [[8]]. Ofthe1780s 23:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

1780s, continuing to attack Ultramarine does nothing to help your case.--Chaser - T 00:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This matter has been discussed so that lessons can be drawn from it. It is over as far as I am concerned. Ofthe1780s 07:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This pointless bickering brings us no closer to a resolution of this issue. Ofthe1780s, do you have any other sources for your assertion that Sarkar is deserving of inclusion in a separate section of this article? And by the way, as a show of good faith, how about we close this section. I think the title at least is rather poisonous to a civil dialog.--Chaser - T 23:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree.Ofthe1780s 23:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You have twice asked for outside views regarding your material, and both have been negative.[9][10] Ultramarine 23:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The WP:Rfc requires more input. Moreover, I have not had time to check the references, but only have your claim these ideas are not referenced in the literature. I will do the research and present my findings here. Ofthe1780s 23:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I have protected the article until disputes over Capitalism#Sarkar.27s_criticism_and_solution can be resolved. This primarily appears to be a dispute between Ultramarine and Ofthe1780s, if anyone is counting heads. Given the amount of talk page text this dispute has already produced, I'm not overly hopeful, but at least we won't fill the history with any more conflict this way.--Chaser - T 19:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Since I've since expressed an opinion on this issue, I won't be unprotecting the article. We'll have to find an uninvolved admin.--Chaser - T 20:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Postive Suggestion

To my mind this debate sounds like teh spat some while ago about Catholicism, if Sarkar is a religious critic of capitalism, he seems to join a long queue, maybe we could link to him under the para on religious critics as an example of a Hindu critic? That would be proportionate and due weight (after all, he could then stand as an example of Hindu critique, and actually add balance).--Red Deathy 06:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Good. There is a significant difference, however. It lies in the fact that Sarkar has outright modern theories of the ills of Capitalism (including the forms of exploitation), notably the Social cycle theory (Sarkar). He also offers a solution Progressive Utilisation Theory. As such he rivals Karl Marx, but differs in that Marx offered an economic analysis. By comparison, Sarkar offered an economic system, Prout. Sarkar's main adherent in the West is Dr. Ravi Batra, a Professor of Economics at Southern Methodist University, who has devoted his lifes work to expounding on these ideas in innumerable economic journals and over twentty books, two of which became bestsellers. His chief contribution may have been to be one of the first to note and analyse the implications of the historic shift from industrial to financial capitalism. The Catholic religion, or more correctly the Bible, is (understandably) much less specific on the nature of the problem of modern capitalism or what should be done to address it. What they do have in common, however, is that Sarkar and Batra are promoting a spiritiual way of life. The church essentially does the same, but as it has effectively been co-opted into the materialistic way of modern life, due to its membership being largely placed in western countries. The teachings of the church therefore now sound out moral guidelines to check the excesses. Sarkar promoted a change in lifestyle and approach to life, via a conscious focus on God. Sarkars adherents follow a yogic lifestyle, etc. Other adherents is the world famous peace sociologist Johan Galtung, who is a big fan of his ideas but not really a follower and Sohail Inayatullah, a leader in the area of futures studies and has written several books and many articles on Sarkar. There are many others, but less notable, I guess. Ofthe1780s 07:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't see anything but warmed up social democracy, really, if we grant Sarkar a place we also have to grant social credit a place (which has a much betterdocumented history and evidence of a clear movement behind it), or Parecon, and sundry money cranks aside. Smith, Marx, Keyne and Freidman can all be said to have influenced the world economy in very direct and measurable ways. Anyway, I suggest otehr editors consider my suggestion.--Red Deathy 08:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Why rely on a quick summary highlighting similiarities or differences. Why not go the source. You could begin by checking out the links to his theory and solution. Ofthe1780s 08:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the third editor, not counting me, who has argued that the material should at best be drastically reduced.[11][12]Ultramarine 09:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Red Deathy. The current section gives Sarkar undue weight. As the article stands now, he receives significantly more article space than Karl Marx, Frantz Fanon, Vladimir Lenin, Mao Zedong, Leon Trotsky Benjamin Tucker, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, Murray Bookchin, Rudolf Rocker, and Noam Chomsky combined. I don't think anyone can legitimately argue his criticisms are more relevant or significant than the combined work of those listed above. At most Sarkar should be appear by name among the list of religious critics. C ^thirty-three 14:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ofthe1780s, if I request unprotection, will you agree to a drastically pared down reference to Sarkar?--Chaser - T 15:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

OK. I'll make a first pass at scaling it back to a few lines. Unless someone objects to that, we can also drop the reference to Sarkar in the introduction, remove the photo and include the information about him in the general critics section. Ofthe1780s 19:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

What is your proposed text? Ultramarine 19:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Revised information about Sarkar

The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar suggested Capitalism was a social formation run by an acquisitive elite that resulted in a progressive maldistribution of wealth, harming the disadvantaged sections of society. His proposed solution is Prout whereby the focus of social organisation is shifted from unstable investment to sustainable consumption. An adherent of Sarkar, bestselling author Dr. Ravi Batra is an early proponent of the the historic development shift of industrial to financial capitalism, emphasizing financial instability and social transformation. Ofthe1780s 20:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's still too long (no one else gets an entire paragraph). I suggest this: The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar also suggested that capitalism causes a progressive maldistribution of wealth, harming the disadvantaged sections of society. His proposed solution is Progressive Utilisation Theory (PROUT) whereby the focus of social organisation is shifted from unstable investment to sustainable consumption.--Chaser - T 20:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, a few lines more or less is not what matters. If you are concerned about a balanced presentation, please consider that Sarkar made an original contribution to the theoretical analysis of Capitalism (Social cycle theory) and its solution (Prout). What original theoretical contribution/solution came from the noted linguist Noam Chomsky or many of the interpreters of Marx? Batra is a major interpreter of Sarkar and innovator on his ideas. He definitely deserves mention as a modern critic of capitalism, too. If necessary, why not add more insight to the ideas of Chomsky or the interpreters of Marx for the required balance, if that is the real issue. Ofthe1780s 21:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Chaser, however, I think the religious aspect should be mentioned. How about "The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar and founder of the Hindu Ananda Marga movement is another critic. His proposed solution is the Progressive Utilisation Theory" Batra is not notable, also mentioning him could be interpreted subtle advertising for his never-ending series of books with failed predicitons.Ultramarine 22:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I don´t agree with your summary. In his 2005 book, "Greenspan's Fraud: How Two Decades of His Policies Have Undermined the Global Economy", Batra argues that fiat based monetary easing in past decades has kept the global financial bubble inflated. He is still of the firm conviction that Financial Capitalism is inherently flawed and that it will one day burst. His 2007 book, "The New Golden Age: The Coming Revolution against Political Corruption and Economic Chaos" is further testament to his conviction. You may consult on 90 of his books published in English, French, Japanese, etc. here [[13]]. He is notable for his insights and achievements notwithstanding the significant failures, perhaps dues also to his intellectual perserverance. Ofthe1780s 22:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ultramarine's text sounds good, and hits all the salient points *for this article* interested readers can follow the links to find out about Sarkar & PROUT. tehre are many original and hardworking economists living today, we can't mention them all, we have to look to whose work has had a *worldwide* audience and practical impact - I mean, we don't even give Smith and Ricardo their own sections much though they may warrant them. Could Batra claim to have influence explicitly any government?--Red Deathy 07:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You guys seem to have objections to what Batra has to say. That indicates a POV reason for your editorial suggestions concerning him. Batra has testified before a committee of the US Congress. He has been a frequent guest on all major US networks (NBC, CBS, CNN, MNBC, etc). He has been featured in most major news papers and magazines. He has been awarded the "Medal of the Italian Senate" for his accurate 1978 prediction of the downfall of Communism. There is a PROUT research insititute in Venesuela, where Hugo Chavez rules. Whether you agree or disagree with him, he is the epitomy of the "hardworking and original economist". Ofthe1780s 08:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The article has no place for almost all of the Nobel prize winners in economics, so there is no reason to provide free advertisement to an author who has become rich by regularly making failed doomsday predictions.Ultramarine 08:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, this is an article about Capitalism and not economics. Unless said Nobel laureats offered original theories about the dynamics and validity of Capitalism they don´t deserve a place in this article. However, they would certainly deserve their own page and mention in an article on economics or their economic theory. Sarkar has made original theories in this regard and offered a solution to the ills of capitalism he perceived. Batra has innovated on those ideas. As such, they differ a lot from run of the mill economists who just rely of earlier theories on capitalism. Ofthe1780s 18:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Ofthe1780s Per WP:ASSUME we haven't accused you of POV pushing, and by the same token I think you should accept out bona fides as very differently perspectived editors testing the material you want included. In all good faith, I can't see a reason to give Sarkar more than a passing reference, nor Batra any reference that couldn't go to the lieks of Barrett Brown or the head of the Economics department at my university. you've put your evidence and it isn't entirely convincing, I'm afraid.--Red Deathy 09:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, who has ever heard of Barrett Brown? Again, this is not an article about economics or economists, so run of the mill economists are not of interest here unless they have made an original contribution regarding capitalist dynamics. Please be clear on this point. Batra's failed predictions were considered an important test of the stability properties of the system. If the stability properties were as weak as he suggested, the continuation of this social formation would be in doubt. If anything, the system has shown itself to be very resilient. At the same time, financial leverage has multiplied almost of an exponential order. Many economists are becoming concerned about this. Batra is still convinced a big day of reckoning is ahead for the system. Will he be ultimately be rpoven right after having been so spectacularly wrong so far? Only time will tell. Still the issue he has developed, well before Hyman Minsky´s interesting book "Can It Happen Again?" is of penultimate importance for the future of Capitalism. If you still think the head of your economics department is as important for understanding modern capitalist dynamics as Batra is, then please share with us his name. I´m sure I'm not the only one to be quite interested to learn more about his or her ideas. Ofthe1780s 18:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

His point was that such economists shouldn't be included, but in any case there are significant overlaps between economics and capitalism. As to Batra, I think the appropriate time to include him in this article would be when his predictions prove correct, which hasn't happened yet.--Chaser - T 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Response to RfC

• Disagree that Sarkar should be given much prominence. The critique by the Pope - successive Popes actually - mentioned above is much more important to include. Sarkar is known to far fewer people than Marx or the Pope. Maybe that is unjust, but it is a fact and WP is not the place to correct injustices. Itsmejudith 15:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the fouth editor, not counting me, who has argued that the material should at best be drastically reduced.[14][15][16] Ofthe1780s has asked for a third opinoin and a RfC. No other editors support him. Ofthe1780s will probably continue to argue for his belief forever. However, the page cannot stay protected forever. I suggest we consider the case closed and unprotect the page.Ultramarine 18:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Headcount

All the voting is evil stuff notwithstanding, I've just done a headcount. Ofthe1780s clearly favors a separate section for Sarkar. Those opposed include

1. Esurnir - "the subsection should obviously be removed as non relevant per WP:Undue weight, the information inside could be merged with the criticism section, or simply removed from this article"
2. C33 - "At most Sarkar should be appear by name among the list of religious critics." (emphasis in original)
3. Red Deathy - "Ultramarine's text sounds good, and hits all the salient points *for this article*" (emphasis in original)
4. Itsmejudith - "Disagree that Sarkar should be given much prominence."
5. Ultramarine, who proposes "The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar and founder of the Hindu Ananda Marga movement is another critic. His proposed solution is the Progressive Utilisation Theory".
6. And myself, Chaser. By this diff, I indicate my agreement with Ultramarine's proposal.

I think we've argued this issue to death, and I don't see many people changing their minds to believe that there should be a section in this article for Sarkar (or mention of Batra, for that matter). I'm ready to ask for unprotection if 1780s will agree to end the discussion here and abide by the consensus that we have obtained on this discussion page.--Chaser - T 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm opposing any mention of Sarkar here. We can't mention all people who oppose (or support) capitalism. -- Vision Thing -- 19:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to make sure I don't create any misimpressions, the purpose of the headcount was to get a gauge of opinion after people had already discussed things. We're still not voting on whether to include the reference.--Chaser - T 19:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• So be it. Ofthe1780s 20:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

reference problem

The reference formatting is messed up. I can't find out what is the root of it -- someone please fix. John Riemann Soong 15:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Foot-notes are now displayed again. --Schwalker 08:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Change to remove a sneeky vandalism

{{editprotected}} Can an administrator swap the actual revision to the one I made on a temp page.

The change is minor and it is made to replace the actual reference that a vandal completly messed up (without being seen for quite some time :-s) - Esurnir 20:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 20:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ongoing Sarkar stuff

I trimmed the sentence on Sarkar, after viewing it in place because, it 1 Contained three wikilinks to closely interlinked articles anyway; 2) In the context of Catholic Churches, Protestent congregations, the movement is more significant ; and 3) Because Sarkar is prominently placed on the PROUT and Ananda Marga pages, and so seemed the easiest thing to trim. Also, when I have a spare movement, the web references 9at least one of them) seem to link to book adverts, so it might be easier to cut out the middle man and just refference the book with a book cite rather than a web site cite.--Red Deathy 11:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

• This is becoming amusing. Red Deathy is clearly on a mission to water down or obfuscate the Sarkar entry. Consider this. The web page with a link to the book "After Capitalism: Prout's Vision for a New World" by Dada Maheshvarananda shows that the book has been read by Hugo Chavez, who then later invited the author to give a talk about PROUT to the Petroleum Industry in Venezueal. So a clear political connection is there. This book has also received glowing reviews by some famous people like Noam Chomsky (himself a noted critic of Capitalism), as well as clergy, authors and politicians. There are contributions of non-AM authors in the books. As for the reception please check out some of the comments:

“Alternative visions are crucial at this moment in history. Prout’s cooperative model of economic democracy, based on cardinal human values and sharing the resources of the planet for the welfare of everyone, deserves our serious consideration.” – Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), author of more than 70 books and 1000 published articles.

“After Capitalism is refreshingly original. It is spiritual and utopian while remaining grounded in reality. Its analysis is intelligent and its vision inspiring.” – Howard Zinn, author of the best-selling A People’s History of the United States

“An important contribution to re-thinking the disastrous course of the current economic globalization.” – Hazel Henderson, economist, author of Beyond Globalization

The following people also give favourable reviews:

• • Frei Betto, Dominican friar, activist and author of more than 40 books, including the bestseller Fidel and Religion
  • Leonardo Boff, Brazilian author and one of the founders of Liberation Theology
  • Marcos Arruda, Brazilian economist and author
  • Father Marcelo Barros, Benedictine monk, theologian and Bible expert, author of 25 books
  • Jim Consedine, New Zealand Coordinator, Restorative Justice Network
  • Prof. Patrus Ananias, co-founder of the popular Brazilian Workers’ Party and former mayor of Belo Horizonte
  • Maria Dirlene Trindade Marques professor of economics, feminist, president of the Economists’ Union and coordinator of the State Committee of the World Social Forum
  • Nada Khader, Executive Director, Westchester People's Action Coalition
  • Nicky Hager, author, New Zealand
  • Carlos Minc, Brazilian ecologist, author and state congressman
  • Father Henrique de Moura Faria, Coordinator of the Inter-Religious Political Forum of Belo Horizonte
  • Rogério Correio, Brazilian state congressman

Many authors who are not monks or nuns of Ananda Marga have written many books and articles about the ideas of Sarkar. It is therefore unambiguously clear that Sarkars ideas are being promoted by people outside of Ananda Marga. The other link, [Prout World] shows glowing appraisals of the contribution of Sarkar, including this:

"P.R. Sarkar was one of the greatest modern philosophers of India."

- Giani Zail Singh, former President of India

The conclusion is that Sarkar should definitely be mentioned in the text, which is in line with an agreement reached here after substantial discussion. Ofthe1780s 18:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this paragraph: this feels uncomfortably like an end-run around the consensus established earlier that a single sentence or two in the criticism section was enough coverage of Sarkar. Instead there is now a new paragraph in the lead prominently mentioning him as a critic in the same league as Marx, which I don't think has been shown. I also favor removing this paragraph. This isn't just an opinion, it's a matter of giving Sarkar undue weight, which is a policy consideration.--Chaser - T 17:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree.Ultramarine 17:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarkar began presenting his ideas in 1950s. He died in 1990. His ideas appear to be in the early take-off phase. These ideas are multi-dimensional spanning economics, environment, human happiness, historical evolution, etc.. Hugo Chavez, a political leader of third world nations critical of capitalism, is a big fan of Sarkar's ideas. So is Noam Chomsky, a famous US critic of Capitalism. As was the late President of India, Giani Zail Singh. The list goes on and on. Of course, as Sarkar was anti-capitalist while defying easy modern university categorisation, he is not really appreciated by many American editors on Wikipedia, who seem to share an insular and arrogant approach rooted in their narrow academic training. What gives Sarkar a special status is that he was equally critical of Communism as he was of Capitalism and predicted the demise of both social formations. I don´t care how you edit this article. Remove what you want as a reference to him. Justify it any way you can. Better yet delete all the material on Sarkar and his ideas. It would be a big triumph. A confederacy of dunces makes precious little difference for the the importance or evolution of these ideas.Ofthe1780s 20:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's the end of it, then.--Chaser - T 21:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Introduction is too long

I came here today to read about capitalism and I had to read 3 paragraphs of qualifications, like I was entering into a contract. The introduction is way to long. The intro should be 2 paragraphs at most. I will write a suggestion down here if no one changes it.Define the idea. List the perspectives. If absolutely necessary, have a paragraph for background so it is meaningful. I will offer a substitute here if no one corrects this.146.115.121.18 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I second that. The whole article is WAAAAAAY too long. Very wordy with a lot of extra information that could easily be cut out. I tried to read the article and almost went cross-eyed. Really needs to be trimmed down. Supergoalie1617 (talk) 00:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Expenses

Capitalism is just about expenses. Those who claim we don't need it also wish that we had perpetual motion or free energy. All this discussion of profit misses the point. "At whose expense?" is the central issue. In capitalism, the buyer uses the seller's capital "at the buyer's expense". Sure, this creates profit, but only because the seller doesn't have an associated expense. Now, if we could somehow violate the laws of physics and have no expenses, then we would have utopia. "Capital" is simply just anything that is not an expense. Now, if we want to go and make all energy "free" by voting for it....well, we can see what kind of problem this would cause...who gets how much?...this is what capitalism's role is today. When we want to run a society/world where expenses is not the main focus, well....it will certainly look different from today's world....those of us around today will likely not see it.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.208.207 (talk) 17:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, no; Capitalism is a theory about who is best suited to control a society's capital. Capital is wealth (i.e., valuable stuff) that can be employed to create more wealth. Capitalism is the idea that big-ticket capital—factories, machine tools, combine harvesters, etc.—should be managed (i.e., owned) by people who have proven their worth by successfully competing against other capitalists in a free marketplace.

Of course, it only works so long as the marketplace is free. Absolute Laissez-faire capitalism converges toward a set of tightly controlled, interlocking monopolies; and when control of those monopolies passes from the original capitalists through generations of their increasingly degenerate spawn, then the benefit to society may be called into question. 71.253.4.98 (talk) 00:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? And when has a coercive monopoly ever come into being under free markets? Examples please ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.251.120.3 (talk) 08:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

When has there ever been free markets? Examples please. Free Markets are a utopian fantasy, and there is no reason at all to believe that free markets would lead to the kind of miraculous wonders that we see described here. CABlankenship (talk) 07:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)C.Blankenship, 19 November 2008

Profit

"Means of production are mostly privately owned and operated for profit." This strikes me as confusing. Are means of production supposed to be operated for profit in order for a system to be considered capitalist, or is it just the general perception that people have of current existing systems that are considered capitalists? A.Z. 19:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, privately owned means of production that aren't used would not be capitalism, and a system run at a loss would not last long, so, yes, profit is an intrinsic and essential feature of capitalism.--Red Deathy 06:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

M&Ms says....but Mr Deathy, I think you have missed this persons point. In any economic system any means of production has to be run at a profit - if not, the result is you are fired, or even worse, death. Whether for money or to reap benefit in kind to cover the cost (effort and time of creating a fishing rod for example) of making/bartering/purchasing the good people attempt to make a profit (in general). Or are you saying that monetary currency will only be used in a capitalist economy and that ONLY a surplus of monetary currency (after cost is deducted) can be considered profit? If so then unfortunatley we cannot 'profit' from argueing this point.

The End of Money

Could this be added: The End of Money http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/martenson/2007/0108.html because we could easily eliminate money, & it already is almost eliminated with ATM & credit cards? Socialism20091011 (talk) 17:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Citation #40

I took the liberty of reading the citation that supposedly validates capitalism's effect on health care, working hours etc. I could find no evidence that this citation directly addresses the benefits it claims. In the interest of fairness, it was only a cursory read. Would someone please point me to the part of the text were health care, working hours, child-labor etc are specifically mentioned as being alleviated or helped by capitalism. Using Firefox's word search feature the words 'children' and 'health' are mentioned but once and only in relation to establishing the definition of "standard of living." In my opinion, this citation and the passage it claims to support should be removed entirely.

The fundamental mistake is missing that the employers have to compete for the employees (so long as we avoid slavery and serdom and guilds and other pre-capitalist institutions). Thus, an employer cannot pay arbitrarily low wages since the workers would just leave for another employer. Long-term, only rising productivity can increase wages.[17] (I will quote Mises.org on this since I cannot rapidly find another online source):

Didn’t workers in the past have to work very long hours? Certainly. There is no doubt that by today’s standards, people in the nineteenth century did indeed work an exhausting schedule. But, again, when output per worker is miserably low, then a supply of consumer goods that most people consider adequate requires people to work correspondingly long hours to produce them all. That, and not the wickedness of big business—as the typical textbook relates the matter, with dreary predictability—accounts for the low standard of living and long hours of work that existed in the past. As the productivity of labor increases, and with it the level of real wages, people can begin to opt for additional leisure rather than continue to work the long hours of the past. Without the need for any legislation whatever, a situation will eventually arise in which employers find offering correspondingly fewer hours to be in their own economic interest, and will offer them without the need for government coercion. If someone who once worked 80 hours per week now wishes to work only 60 (that is, three-fourths as many hours), and is willing to accept a wage less than three-fourths that of his previous wage as a premium on the leisure he will now enjoy, it makes perfect sense for his employer to offer these terms.

To the extent that maximum-hours legislation corresponded with people’s desire to work fewer hours, it was superfluous, since such an outcome would have come about by means of the process just described. But to the extent that such legislation was economically premature, forcing fewer hours on workers who needed the wages of their longer hours in order to maintain what they considered an adequate standard of living, it harmed the very people it was allegedly intended to help.

A similar analysis can also shed light on the problem of child labor, the source of a great deal of uninformed moralizing. Far from a product of the Industrial Revolution, child labor has existed since the beginning of time. When the productivity of labor is hopelessly low, parents naturally think of children as economic actors who can contribute to the well-being of their families. Without their children’s participation in the family’s work, the entire household could suffer terrible privation. This is a fact of life in poor, low-productivity societies that no "progressive" legislation can wish away.[18]

Another source:

It is commonly supposed that in order to cope with rising competition from the Third World and increasingly efficient machinery, we in the United States and Western Europe must work harder and put in longer and longer hours. Actually, the time we spend working has diminished, as rising prosperity resulting from growth has enabled us to earn the same pay by doing less work—if we want to. Compared with our parents’ generation, most of today’s workers go to work later, come home earlier, have longer lunch and coffee breaks, longer vacations, and more public holidays. In the U.S., working hours today are only about half of what they were a hundred years ago, and have diminished by about 10 percent just since 1973—a reduction equaling 23 days per year. On average, American workers have acquired five extra years of waking leisure time since 1973.

We start working progressively later in life, and retire earlier. Calculated over his lifetime, a Western worker in 1870 had only two hours off for each hour worked. By 1950 that figure had doubled to four hours off. Today it has doubled again to about eight hours off for each hour worked. Economic development, closely linked to an expansion of trade that has enabled us to specialize, makes it possible for us to reduce our working hours sharply even as we raise our material living standard.[19]

Ultramarine 08:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I think a shorter way to see it is that unions are a part of market forces.--Red Deathy 08:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

"To the extent that maximum-hours legislation corresponded with people’s desire to work fewer hours, it was superfluous, since such an outcome would have come about by means of the process just described."

'...Since such an outcome would have come about by means of the process...'

That's nothing more than pure speculation. In other words: 'The way it did happen doesn't matter because it would've happened the way I described it anyhow' - this is otherwise known as revisionist history. It's pointless to cite sources that describe how something would've come out rather than how it did. Shorter hours\child labor etc. came about because of union activity - activities that were opposed by capitalist forces. Perhaps capitalism would've succeeded in doing what populist movement achieved, but it didn't, so it's moot. Historically speaking, it happened because of movements and eventual legislation, not because of competition. While I'm not arguing that capitalism hasn't increased certain aspects of our livelihood, I strenuously object to linking what clearly occurred through unionization to capitalism in general. That's dangerous, and misleading. I'd like those references related to shorter hours and child\elderly labor removed. Thousands have died, shed blood, fighting for those causes across the globe, please don't dishonor them by erasing their fight. T.C. Craig 16:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Pro-capitalists certainly argue that capitalism is responsible for these benefits, as shown in the quotes above. Marx claims without evidence that capitalism is exploitative, it is his "speculation". If including this, we should include the opposite view.Ultramarine 16:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Without evidence? What a slap in the face to every worker that's ever voted and/or died for higher wages and better conditions. Are you contending that a nine-year-old in a 1890's factory wasn't being exploited? I suppose thousands of people, over many generations, have gotten it all wrong since the industrial revolution?

"pro-capitalists" can argue that capitalism is responsible for all those benefits, but it wasn't. It may have turned out that way, eventually. But, historically speaking, these benefits came about only because of demands, strikes, and whatnot. That's all I'm contending. T.C. Craig 16:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Read Barro and refs therein. The decrease in working hours that started during the industrial revolution is predicted by free market theories and the trend existed even before coercive labor unions began foisting certain regulations on the market.JoeCarson 16:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You're really missing my point. Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly. We will never know if market forces would've increased wages or decreased hours because unionization preempted these forces. That's the history. There may or may not have been a trend, but those trends do not matter. Generations of people didn't feel like waiting around for the market to do what they could do themselves. We will never know if such benefits would've occurred if left to market mechanisms. It just didn't happen that way. Regardless if capitalism predicted shorter hours (and do we really have shorter hours? Do we really have higher wages/purchasing power? That is still being hotly debated...) the fact is that unionization, and not market mechanisms, decreased hours. Capitalism may have predicted benefits, but those benefits did not come about in the way capitalism explained it, that's what I'm contesting. T.C. Craig 16:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

"...Even before coercive labor unions began foisting certain regulations on the market."

That sentence proves my point beautifully. Indeed, it was regulation, and not market forces, that effected the changes we are now debating. Please remove those references. T.C. Craig 17:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I am glad I was able to prove your point, considering you have not been able to do so yourself. Let me translate for you from between the lines. The fact that working hours were decreasing and hourly wages were increasing before the labor market became as coercive as it currently is means the mechanism could not have been the unions. Proponents of liberal capitalism recognize it was the market that lead to these benefits. Changes after the unions managed to get more power from Washington cannot be attributed to unions alone.JoeCarson 17:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course proponents of liberal capitalism would say that, that's what proponents do. Furthermore, the causal link you're trying to make is tentative at best. Not enough time had passed before unions entered the picture to accurately gauge if such a trend was sustainable, or just a blip - if the trend even occurred at all. Essentially, these authors are taking data that occurred over a hundred or more years ago and projecting that trend up to this point in time, and then saying that any union involvement was simply erroneous and not worth considering. Though, being a student at an "elite" university, it makes sense that you'd prefer to take those viewpoints that bolster your position in the hierarchy of America. T.C. Craig 17:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so what's the problem with expressing the views of proponents in the "proponents of capitalism section". We're moving away from the issue here. I believe the proponents are right, you believe they are wrong. Our beliefs are irrelevant here. Only the views of the proponents are important. The proponents of capitalism view it as the cause of better working conditions, shorter hours, higher pay, etc. The section expresses the views of proponents, it does not evaluate them. BTW, this student at an elite university is the child of 3rd world immigrants and was born into what is considered poverty in this country. Luckily, capitalism does not enforce strict hierarchies and has allowed me to move up in social class. I will begin my career at 6 figures, while my parents barely reach that now after decades in the labor force. JoeCarson 17:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your "elite" status: It's easy to say that behind the privacy of a computer. However, it was a bit Ad Hominum for me to say, and pointless. I'll leave it alone. You raised a good issue regarding the "proponents" section, regardless of how misleading it really is. T.C. Craig 17:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC) 17:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Never worse than top 20 on international rankings. Never worse than top 10 on national rankings. GRE above 1500. JoeCarson 17:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Big deal. As our conversation implies, statistics can never explain anything beyond what has chosen to be counted, and the methods used to do so. T.C. Craig 19:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

To recap, even if unions were responsible, unions are not ipso facto anti-capitalist, and have been seen by many critics of capitalism as simply a part of the machienry of capitalism, a means to aid market forces - after all, the motto of the Durham miners was "When eggs are scarce, eggs are dear - when men are scarce men ought to be dear". Trade unions were a significant part of capitalist development. American capitalism grew precisely because skilled labour was scarce and expensive - 'Capitalists' may not have liked it, but then capitalists don't like other capitalists neither. There are plenty of criticisms in the critics section, I think this is a just point to retain in the proponents section.--Red Deathy 07:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly right, Red. In the context of a quite different discussion, I was once asked whether I considered collective bargaining a market mechanism. I answered in two steps: Collective bargaining is, by definition, bargaining. Bargaining is, again by definition, a market mechanism.

Sometimes I'm so good I scare myself. --Christofurio 23:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Overgeneralizing about critics of capitalism

I've added Some to the first sentence in the section, until we can properly address the issues here. for starters, while some libertarian socialists may consider regulation a short-term fix for specific problems with capitalism, few if any consider regulation a preferred alternative; indeed, mutualists don't consider free markets the problem at all... Jacob Haller 00:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Few if any libertarian socialists consider regulation a remedy for the problems of capitalism.

That statement ("Few if any...") is nonsensical. Isn't it clear that a "libertarian socialist" would consider "libertarian socialism" to be the remedy for the problems of capitalism? I think the underlying problem is that, within the libertarian capitalist ideology, socialism is conceived of as "regulation." The idea of a form of society other than market capitalism is barred from that thought system. :-/ So you will see a lot of people equating socialism with regulation; regulation is called socialism in order to denigrate it as evil, and socialism is called regulation in order to assign some meaning to a term which is not understood. —Jemmy_tc 09:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Talk page archives

Why is there such excessive archiving of this talk page? I took a look at a few of them and it seems the talk page has gotten archived after every 5-10 or so discussions (specifically looking at 18, 19 and 20, but they all seem to be that short). While I see the necessity of archiving, I hardly see why it's beneficial to archive after discussion of only two or three or even just 10 topics. Most archives I've seen have been after 25 at the least and usually up to 75 topics. Eventually there will be 100 archived pages here, and it doesn't help facilitate continued discussion of prior topics to archive everything so quickly.--Gloriamarie 23:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem is not the number of topics but the verbiage, this turns into a long talk page quite quickly, and so needs occaisionaly trimming...--Red Deathy 07:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Such "trimming" results in the obscuration previous discussion. They would be much more accessible if archived by topic instead of meaningless numbers.--Sum (talk) 02:57, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Marx and Weber in the introduction

I will remove mention of Marx and Weber from introduction of the article since they are only theorist mentioned by name there, and that gives them undue weight in relation to other, equally or more important, theorists of capitalism. -- Vision Thing -- 18:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hallo Vision Thing, your removal of Marx's and Weber's names from the introduction does not improve the informative value. In fact, now the T.Parsons (1928/1929) sources are lost. If there are equally or more important theorists of capitalism, please mention there contributions, instead of deleting other content, thanks.--Schwalker 20:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

For doing that we would need to mention almost all the theorist from the "Perspectives on the characteristics of capitalism" section and that would produce too much clatter in the intro. Parsons source was used for Weber, so it's not needed anymore. -- Vision Thing -- 12:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Capitalism as a sociological phenomenon, as a historical phenomenon and form of society, is not accepted by the POV-warring capitalists who wish to define it as the political theory they have come here to promote. —Jemmy_tc 09:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

removal of Bolivar

Vision Thing's removal is inconsistent with its explanation. It is POV in the same way the whole of the rest of the paragraph propagating the view that capitalism==democracy is POV. I am therefore restoring it, as well as the Marx and Weber information. Vision Thing has been consistently removing anti-capitalist views from articles. -- infinity0 12:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Vision Thing, please explain your remove of this instead of reverting me. -- infinity0 12:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Just for the reference, I removed the unsourced claim that Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela is distinctively democratic regime. -- Vision Thing -- 12:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

If you disagree with the precise wording, why don't you reword it. If you think it is lacking in sources, why don't you add them? You have done both of these actions to sentences which espouse your own capitalistic viewpoint, why do you not do the same for alternative viewpoints? -- infinity0 12:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Because the view that Venezuela is distinctively democratic regime is held by a fringe minority and talking about it here, in the article about capitalism, would give undue weight to it. -- Vision Thing -- 13:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is this a "fringe" minority? Liekwise, how is the view that "capitalism==democracy" equally "not" a fringe minority to justify it being included? -- infinity0 14:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Venezuela is certainly democratic on the surface, but Chavez behaves in an authoritarian manner and the fairness of the referendum is questionable.JoeCarson 23:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed Venezuela es "ostensibly democratic". According to independent sources such as the Bertelsmann Transformation Index 2008, Venezuela's current democracy is "strongly defective". A bad example of an "ostensibly democratic" system. This article is about Capitalism, not Venezuela. Insisting on portraying the current Venezuelan system as "ostensibly democratic" without citing any serious independent study that confirms such a statement is POV. If you like the Venezuelan system and its anticapitalism that's fine, but portraying it as "ostensibly democratic" without any proof is just propaganda that has no place in a serious encyclopedic article, especially one that has nothing to do with Venezuela. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.37.192.70 (talk) 17:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The USA is also a defective democracy, but we call it a democracy. Removing Venezuela is POV pushing. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, Venezuela is currently a capitalist country. The government wants to move to socialism, but it has not happened yet and no one knows if it will ever happen. In fact, the proposal to transform Venezuela into a socialist state was rejected in a referendum. Independent sources have stated that the current Venezuelan democracy is not just defective, but "strongly defective". Venezuela has large private companies, stock exchange, private property of many means of production, and many other characteristics of capitalism. The government would like to change that, but that is only what the current government wants, not what currently exists. Saying that Venezuela is "ostensibly democratic" and "anticapitalist" is not only POV, but just plain wrong because it is neither. In addition, Venezuelan democracy was originally introduced by governments that were not anticapitalist at all.

Trying to justify adding Venezuela by saying that USA democracy is defective is wrong. That only entitles you to say that USA is not "ostensibly democratic". To prove that adding that "Venezuela is anticapitalist and ostensibly democratic" is NPOV you need to find independent reliable references for both statementsUser:vegetasaiyajin

The point of the mention of Venezuela in this section, though, isn't to argue that it is democratic (FWIW, I think the view that Venezuela isn't democratic is held by a tiny fringe consisting predominantly of the US state department). Rather, the point here is to report an argument apparently made by some that Venezuela is an example of an anti-capitalist democracy. So we don't need sources that say Venezuela is a democracy, but we do need someone to whom we can attribute this argument about democratic anti-capitalist states; the same goes whether Venezuela is mentioned in this context or not. VoluntarySlave (talk) 18:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You should not confuse Venezuela with Chavez. Venezuela is a capitalist country that has a socialist president. The fact that Chavez is anticapitalist does not mean that the Venezuelan state is. The current Venezuelan State as defined by its constitution is far from being anticapitalist. In practice, it is a capitalist country that according to some is democratic and according to others is not so democratic. I have no problem with you saying Venezuela is a democracy, but to qualify it as "ostensibly" democratic you need a reliable source, because many independent studies contradict that argument. To say that Venezuela is anticapitalist just because Chavez is fighting capitalism in the country is just plain wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vegetasaiyajin

I think you may not have understood my comment, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. The article doesn't say that Venezuela is a democratic anti-capitalist country; the article says that some people have put forward Venezuela as an example of a democratic anti-capitalist country. If we can attribute that view to somebody or some people (and that person is reasonably notable, or those people are reasonably numerous), it can stay in the article whether or not it's true. If, on the other hand, we can't find someone making the argument put forward in the article, the whole sentence, not just the bit about Venezuela, should be taken out of the article.VoluntarySlave (talk) 21:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Now I understand your intention. However, when the article says "It has been observed that ...", it sounds a little more like it is a fact rather than an opinion. An opinion which, by the way, contradicts what the Venezuelan constitution says.

In principle, it is important to distinguish between the state (e.g. the constitution) and the government or current regime (e.g. Chavez). According to the Venezuelan government's website, according to Article 274 Venezuela is a democracy [20]. According to the governments objectives, one objective is to go "beyond" capitalism [21]; the government is explicitly dedicated to socialism [22]. As long as we say it is a democratic state with a socialist government, we should be fine. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. Being a democracy with a government dedicated to socialism is not the same as declaring the "Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela" as an anticapitalist republic, especially when that dedication to socialism was rejected by Venezuelans in a referendum. The references you added help clarify this User:Vegetasaiyajin.

Regarding my criticizing the use of the expression "ostensibly democratic", I now accept that I was wrong. The reason is that the word "ostensible" has a different meaning in Spanish. After seeing its meaning in an English dictionary I agree that it is actually the best term to use.User:Vegetasaiyajin

What does democracy have to do with capitalism anyway? If the economy is controlled by capitalists, then what would it matter if every other aspect of society were ruled by a dictator with an iron fist. It would still be capitalism. China is turning into a capitalist economy right before our eyes, but do you see any democracy there? 71.253.4.98 (talk) 01:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Contested definitions

There has bever been agreement that a free market would produce capitalism or that capitalism requires a free market. Many socialist theorists, most notably Proudhon, argued that a free market would undermine capitalism and tend towards socialism (in his Philosophy of Misery, or System of Economic Contradictions, in 1846/47, and in his General Idea of the Revolution in the 19th Century, in 1851). Jacob Haller 20:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can base a definition for an encyclopedia article on some obscure theorist like that. Besides, regardless of what a free market would lead to, if it led to something other than private ownership of the means of production then it wouldn't be capitalism. Capitalism has private ownership of the means of production and and a free market which means that supply and demand resolve themselves instead of the government trying to adjust supply and demand through central command and control.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Proudhon is hardly obscure (and Bastiat isn't obscure either and he made some similar remarks about the behavior of markets). Anyway, that definition doesn't work:

• It excludes actually-existing capitalism (which doesn't include free markets)
• It includes several socialist/anticapitalist proposals (such as mutualism, which includes both free markets and private ownership of the means of production). Jacob Haller 03:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "actually-existing capitalism"?? There is no pure capitalist system in existence that I'm aware of. The academic term for what we have today are "mixed economies" which have a combination of free markets, controlled markets, privately-owned enterprises, state-owned enterprises, etc. For example in the U.S. there is a free market in bread production and distribution but there is not a free market in wages due to minimum wages laws. There is free enterprise such as bakeries but there is also state owned enterprises like the Post Office. Therefore the U.S. economy is mixed. I looked at the "mutualism" article and it looks to me like a non-profit system. The definition in this article says that the means of production are operated for profit. If the means of production are privately owned and operated for a profit and the government doesn't regulate supply and demand (free markets) then that is capitalism. I don't see a problem with the definition. Human capital 16:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I mean the economic system which has been known as "capitalism," "the capitalist system," or equivalent terms in other languages since the mid-19th century. Capitalism has never involved free markets. From the 19th century to the present, socialists have debates whether the characteristic features of capitalism (profit, rent, and interest on capital, and the separation of capital from labor) could survive in a free market. Proudhon said that they could not survive in a free market, and Marx said that they could.

For the record, mutualism isn't opposed to short-term entepreneurial profits. Even Proudhon discusses how commerce creates value; mutualist theory regards this as a form of labor. It is opposed to state-privileged monopoly profits, and it has historically expected other profits to fall towards zero. Jacob Haller 18:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Capitalism has never involved free markets? What are you talking about. Capitalism is defined by free markets. As I pointed out above, even in the U.S. mixed economy there is a free market in bread. The governemnt does not dictate production, distribution, or prices. That's what a free market is. I agree with Blues Runner above that Proudhon is too obscure to matter here. He is an extreme fringe theoretician. But even if you accepted Proudhon's misguided opinion that profit couldn't survive in a free market, then what resulted wouldn't be capitalism. To be capitalism there has to be profit and a free market at the same time. That's how it's defined. You also deleted by entry that I gave a source for which said that most economies today are mixed as that therefore the term "capitalism" is not descriptive of economies operating today. Human capital 18:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

State-privileged monopoly profits? What? If the government protects a monopoly from competition that's not capitalism. Nobody considers the U.S. Post Office to be a capitalist enterprise. Human capital 19:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand Haller's objection. Look up capitalism. It's defined like it is in the introduction.

1. Mixed economies are not free-market economies.
2. "Capitalism" has historically meant certain mixed economies, not free-market economies.

What I mean by "contested definition"

A good general definition describes how people use, and have used, the word. A good technical definition describes how the author intends to use the word in the work, and clarifies the differences between this special-purpose definition and any general definitions. A definition is contested if people use the same word, in the same contexts, with very different meanings. The word "capitalism," used to describe an economic system (or mode of production), has at least two different, and often conflicting, meanings. At the very least, the article should distinguish between different senses of capitalism to avoid confusion. Jacob Haller 21:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

All this confusion of a definition is caused by capitalism itself, which is slavery for wages & forces orphans to work or starve. Plus we should have built only Towers (multi-use) connected to maglev Trains worldwide, so food, medicine, etc is free & no one starves. Sundiii (talk) 23:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

In "When Corporations Rule the World" Korten says (on pg. 241) that pure capitalism would be if one man owns all things & automates all the work, leaving all people (slaves) to starve, & I have to agree. Sundiii (talk) 23:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Other Definitions

And here are some other definitions of "capitalism" (previously quoted on Talk:Anti-capitalism and Talk:Agorism): Jacob Haller 20:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Proudhon, Pierre Joseph, Philosophy of Misery:

Capital, Mastership, Privilege, Monopoly, Loaning, Credit, Property, etc.,--such are, in economic language, the various names of I know not what, but which is otherwise called Power, Authority, Sovereignty, Written Law, Revelation, Religion, God in short, cause and principle of all our miseries and all our crimes, and who, the more we try to define him, the more eludes us.

To defend usury they have pretended that capital was productive, and they have changed a metaphor into a reality. The anti-proprietary socialists have had no difficulty in overturning their sophistry; and through this controversy the theory of capital has fallen into such disfavor that today, in the minds of the people, CAPITALIST and IDLER are synonymous terms.

• Proudhon, Pierre Joseph, 1851, General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century, fourth study, commenting on Rousseau:

After having trifled with his readers thus for a long time, after having drawn up the Code of Capitalist and Mercantile Tyranny, under the deceptive title of Social Contract, the Genevese charlatan deduces the necessity of a lower class, of the subordination of labor, of a dictatorship and of the Inquisition.

• fifth study:

Finally, its adversaries, the capitalistic, theologically [?] usurious, governmental, partisans of the status quo [?], all those indeed who live less by labour than by prejudice and privilege.

Let this course of reduction, for however small an amount, once be entered upon, and continued as slowly as you like, faster or more slowly makes no difference; then, I assert, the social tendency in all that concerns the price of money and discount, throughout the whole territory of the Republic, will be immediately changed, ipso facto, and that this simple change will cause the Country to pass from the present capitalistic and governmental system to a revolutionary system.

• sixth study

The school of Say, sold out to English and native capitalism, the chief focus of counter-revolution next to the Jesuits, has for ten years past seemed to exist only to protect and applaud the execrable work of the monopolists of money and necessaries, deepening more and more the obscurity of a science naturally difficult and full of complications.

• Greene, William B., Communism-Capitalism-Socialism equates Capitalism with Plutocracy.
• Bakunin, Mikhail, 1867, Marxism, Freedom, and the State:

The masses, without distinction of degree of culture, religious beliefs, country and speech, had understood the language of the International when it spoke to them of their poverty, their sufferings and their slavery under the yoke of Capitalism and exploiting private ownership; they understood it when it demonstrated to them the necessity of uniting their efforts in a great solid, common struggle.

• Bakunin, Mikhail, 1869, The Policy of the International defines capitalism as the rule of the bourgeoisie:

And that poverty --- which is the common lot of the worker --- in all parts of the world --- is a consequence of the present economic organization of society, and especially of the enslavement of labour --- i.e. the proletariat --- under the yoke of capitalism --- i.e the bourgeoisie?

• Spies, August, testimony:

While capitalism expropriates the masses for the benefit of the privileged class; while capitalism is, that school of economics which teaches how one can live upon the labor (i.e., property) of the other; socialism teaches how all may possess property, and further teaches that every man must work honestly for his own living, and not be playing the 'respectable board of trade man,' or any other highly (?) respectable business man or banker, such as appeared here as talesman in the jurors' box, with the fixed opinion that we ought to be hanged.

Anarchism does not mean bloodshed; does riot mean robbery, arson, etc. These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism. Anarchism means peace and tranquility to all. Anarchism, or socialism, means the reorganization of society upon scientific principles and the abolition of causes which produce vice and crime. Capitalism first produces these social diseases and then seeks to cure them by punishment.

• Fischer, Adolph, testimony:

Capitalism now is speedily attaining its most extreme character, that is, it is develop into monopolism. Wealth concentrates itself more and more in a few hands and the misery and poverty of the great mass of people is consequently enlarging in the same degree. The rich got richer and the poor poorer. Like the ruling classes in the eighteenth century, so the same classes at the eve of the nineteenth century are deaf to the complaints and warnings of the disinherited, and blind to the misery and degradation which surround their luxuriously outfitted palaces.

• Parsons, Albert, testimony:

In other words, his wages represent the bare necessities of his existence, and the unpaidfor or 'surplus' portion of his labor product constitutes the vast superabundant wealth of the non-producing or capitalist class. That is the capitalist system. It is the capitalist system that creates these classes, and it is these classes that produces this conflict.

The capitalist system originated in the forcible seizure of natural opportunities and rights by a few, and converting these things into special privileges, which have since become vested rights formally entrenched behind the bulwarks of statute law and government.

• Parsons, Albert, 1887, Anarchism: Its Philosophy and Scientific Basis, chapter 2 "Capitalism: Its Development in the Unites States, continued:"

Political parties, no longer divided in interest upon property questions, all legislation was centered upon a development of the resources of the country. To this end vast tracts of goverment land, amounting to many million acres, equalling in extent seven states the size of Illinois were donated as subsidies to the projectors of railways. The national debt, incurred to prosecute the rebellion, and amounting to three billion dollars was capitalized, by creating interest upon the bonds. Hundreds of millions were given as bonuses to proposed railways, steamship lines, etc. A protective tariff law was enacted which for the past twenty years has Imposed a tax upon the people amounting to one billion dollars annually. A National Banking system was established which gave control of finance to a banking monopoly. By means of these and other laws capitalist combinations, monopolies syndicates, and trusts were created and fostered, until they obtained absolute control of the principle avenues of industry, commerce and trade. Arbitrary prices are fixed by these combinations and the consumers--mainly the poor--are compelled by their necessities to pay whatever price is exacted. Thus during the past twenty-five years,--since the abolition of the chattel-slave labor system--twenty-five thousand millionaires have been created, who by their combinations control and virtually own the fifty billion dollars estimate wealth of the United States, while on the other hand twenty million wage workers have been created whose poverty forces them into a ceaseless competition with each other for opportunity to earn the bare necessities of existence.

• Corna & Klemensic, 1905, Resolution #20 at the Founding Convention of the Industrial Worlds of the World (fifth day):

In view of the fact that the present form of capitalism is increasing organized violence to perpetuate the spirit of despotism to predominate in this republic...

• Bourne, Randolph, 1918, The State:

But except for these occasional menaces, business, that is to say, aggressive expansionist capitalism, had nearly forty years in which to direct the American republic as a private preserve, or laboratory, experimenting, developing, wasting, subjugating, to its heart’s content, in the midst of a vast somnolence of complacency such as has never been seen and contrast strangely with the spiritual dissent and constructive revolutionary thought which went on at the same time in England and the Continent.

• Bookchin, Murray, 1971, Listen, Marxist!:

Writing in the middle years of the nineteenth century, Marx could not be expected to grasp the full consequences of his insights into the centralization of capital and the development of technology. He could not be expected to foresee that capitalism would develop not only from mercantilism into the dominant industrial form of his day--from state-aided trading monopolies into highly competitive industrial units--but further, that with the centralization of capital, capitalism returns to its mercantilist origins on a higher level of development and reassumes the state-aided monopolistic form.

• Dolgoff, Sam, 1971, Relevance of Anarchism is Modern Society:

The bourgeois reformers have yet to learn that as long as these reforms are tied to the state or to capitalism, which connotes the monopoly of political economic power, decentralism and federalism will remain a fraud...

What is the point of the above? Your sources are obscure radical anarchists. Unless you can present something more mainstream, it's not really relevant. Fringe views should really only be represented as fringe views. Human capital 23:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:NPOV.

I had originally compiled this list for anarchism-related topics and saw no reason to add non-anarchist authors to the list. It's not supposed to be a representative sample, it's only supposed to demonstrate than another definition exists, and has long existed. Jacob Haller 00:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the above list is the "alternative radical" defiinition. See WP:N. This would certainly help expand the article.Smallman12q (talk) 01:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Mostly private

If there is a state run post office, say, in a country, and everythign else is private, that does not mean that the economic system ceases to be capitalist. likewise, the para on mixed economies is hugely POV, since many commentators consider mixed economies to be a species of capitalism - it strikes me as a pandering to the sort of view that defines capitalism solely against state ownership (however legitimate that view is, it certainly isn't the only one).--Red Deathy 11:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to this part of the intro? "Because most economies today are mixed economies, "capitalism" is too broad to be descriptive.[3][4] due to containing both private-owned and state-owned enterprises, or that combines elements of capitalism and socialism, or a mix of market economy and command economy characteristics." Other than some wording issues, that part is accurate. It makes as much sense to describe an evenly mixed economy as capitalist as it does to call it socialist.JoeCarson 12:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the question is, which prdominates - there was free amrket activity in "actually existing socialism" (what I would call state capitalism, but I have to give a little here and there so I can take a little), they were still "socialist" (in fact, as some have recently point out the arch-capitalist UK has a greater state sector in some regions than some "communist" states had). Anyway, this all came up at the Socialism talk page, I quote: "According to the textbook Comparative Economics in a Transforming World Economy (Cambridge, MA.: MIT Press, 2004), the planned market economies of Sweden, Japan, and France were "varieties of advanced market capitalism," not forms of socialism." That's at least one text that contradicts the cited text in the article. IMNSHO defining capitalism as 'not state owned' is harmful, wrong and ignorant, but thats by the by, it's also circular and prevents seeing the way in which states assist markets as well.--Red Deathy 13:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"defining capitalism as 'not state owned' is harmful, wrong and ignorant" you say? That shows how little you know. Essential to capitalism is private ownership of the means of production which is essential to all definitions of capitalism in sources. If an economy has some minimal government ownership then it's a capitalist-mixed economy, meaning it's mostly capitalism but not pure capitalism. The private ownership would be the capitalist part while the state ownership part would be the non-capitalist part. Human capital 15:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

My main problem with that definition is that it is basing capitalism's definition on the owner, not the type ofownership - I've read models of capitalism where it is considered possible to have no personal owners, say, a world in which state industries competed with each other as massive corporations - I put more emphasis on the market aspects than on the legal title. thus a world in which, say, French state industries could be sold to the American state would be as much capitalistic as if private persons were doing it--Red Deathy 16:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

You're talking about "state capitalism" I assume. "State capitalism" is not "capitalism" which is why "state" is prepended to the term. "State capitalism" is pretty heterodox term. I think Trotsky even said that the advantage of the term is that "nobody knows what it means." Human capital 16:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Partly, although co-operative capitalism in which everything is owned by co-operatives is also possible - they'd be owned by their members but not in the same manner as modern shareholders do - or by public chartered corporations - the point I'd emphasise is production with a view to sell for profit, but I accept the consensus def. because I value a stable lead over continual revision. A red car is still a car, state capitalism is as much capitalism as laissez faire capitalism is, they are just variatioons on the capitalistic theme. --Red Deathy 16:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can get anywhere here. What classical liberals call capitalism, leftists qualify as liberal or laissez-faire capitalism. What liberals call mixed economies or corporatism, leftists call state capitalism. The liberal position is that socialism = state ownership of the means of production. Whether that ownership is merely de facto or de jure is irrelevant. Thus, many classical liberals see HMOs in the US as being fundamentally socialist institutions. HMOs are given special privileges by the government and subsidized with money misappropriated from the people. The socialist would call this state capitalism because HMOs are nominally private and seek profits.

Perhaps we should mention that proponents of capitalism tend to be supportive of (capitalism = economic liberalism), while opponents tend to oppose (capitalism = for profit).JoeCarson 17:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Red Deathy you deleted something that had a source, which was the statement that pure capitalism has never existed. It is from a mainstream economics textbook. Human capital 17:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability is a necessary but not sufficient reason for inclusion, without much effort I could find sources to claim the contrary, and as a comment it is tendentially POV (arguing in effect that capitalism is something other than it is). Like I said, I'll happilly bow to any third party on this (although if the point is restored, i'd prefer to see it reworded, it kind of stuck out as it was, copy editeed a touch). On Joe's points, we need to accomodate or remain judiciously silent. Anyway, I still like the OED's definition that capitalism is a system that promotes the existence of capitalists, it gets round all sorts of fenangles. But the point remains, that for many commentators a mixed economy is capitalist and capitalism is compatable with some state ownership of wealth.--Red Deathy 07:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Human capital. Just qualify it as laissez-faire capitalism. Complete economic liberalism has never existed and I'm sure that is what the econ text was getting at. When mainstream economists say capitalism, they mean the same thing as classical liberals. JoeCarson 10:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Fine, but if it is restored, could it be more substantial - what does pure capitalism mean? that teh obnly human relationships are market based? Mothers selling food to their children? No sex without payment - what is pure capitalism? lets not forget, also, that it is not just an economic term, it is also sociological...--Red Deathy 11:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't a link to laissez-faire or economic liberalism be sufficient?JoeCarson 12:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

A pure capitalists an economy is one that exactly fits the definition of capitalism. There is no such economy, just like there is no pure communist economy. Many reference works note that this. For example here's Encyclopedia Americana: "Even among economies classifed as capitalistic there may be considerable variation from the conditions taht characterize pure capitalism. The contemporary economy of the United States, which is regarded as an outstanding example of modern capitalism, is a mixed rather than a pure capitalist economy." It says in that article that an economy that is pure capitalist would not only have all the means of production privately owned but also free from government control and regulation. Human capital 00:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

In other words, you're arging from "the" definition, which is why other definitions matter. A good definition describes how words are used, either in one context, or generally, and "Capitalism" is often used to describe mixed economies. Joe Carson's suggestion (about pro- and anti-capitalist uses of the term) is a definite improvement, but "for profit" poses problems for systems which distinguish different kinds or sources of profit. Jacob Haller 02:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The lead

Am I the only one to think the lead is far too long? I would like to see only the first paragraph left above the table of contents. The other articles in the lead are really discussions of various aspects or limitations of capitalism, or the scope of capitalist theory - distinctions that should be in the article, but not the lead VisitorTalk 00:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The lead says the term "capitalism is too broad to be constructive" but then talks about a pure capitalism, implying that there is a definitive essence of capitalism - this strikes me as contradictory. As to pure capitalism, there are sufficient comentators who claim that capitalism could not exist without state support to make the idea of a stateless pure capitalism highly disputable. Again, I ask, how far does privatisation have to go to become pure? Until there are no otehr than market relations? the basic fact is that capitalism is the hegemonic mode of production at the minute, and even state enterprises are subject to capialistic relations. Laissez Faire is as much capitalism as anarcho capitalism, crony capitalism (and state capitalism : if you accept the term). I also reckon that talking of "bits of socialism" is a bit dubious, since socialism is a system of society, not nationalisation or government regulation, though these may be things advocated by socialists. I suggest we need to keep the lead clean and tight, and can save fenangling over such issues till further down the article--Red Deathy 07:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Crony capitalism = state capitalism = socialism. When government is successful in behavior that only the rightful owner of x is allowed, government is effectively the owner of x. State capitalism is as much capitalism as Wednesday is Friday. Capitalism is the dominant form of production because no other system produces as much utility, but capitalism is certainly not dominant in the area of property rights. Governments have misappropriated the property rights of billions of people, they just haven't put much of that property to productive uses. Only anti-capitalists hold the belief that capitalism cannot exist without coercive relations. Pro-capitalists and objective commentators understand that pure capitalism is by definition free of coercive relations, even if a state does exist. Those who fixate on the private part of capitalism do not understand it. Liberalism is at the heart of capitalism. Charities and cooperatives are 100% compatible with a capitalist economy, as long as they are voluntary. JoeCarson 12:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find plenty of pro capitalists consider the state essential, if only to define property rights; and plenty of pro-capitalists believe in state regulation, as a means of securing capitalism's existence - but of course, if you define state interference as anti-capitalist your argument becomes circular and impossible to refute...--Red Deathy 12:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

A coercive state is incompatible with capitalism, not just any arbitrary state. A homeowner's association is an example of a non-coercive state.JoeCarson 15:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It doens't say "capitalism is too broad to be constructive." It says "capitalism is too broad to be descriptive." It's saying when people use the term "capitalism" loosely to describe various economies, it's not describing much because they use it to apply to economies that vary greatly. Human capital 15:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It's essential to capitalism that the means of production are privately owned. If the means of production are owned by the state, that's socialism by all mainstream definitions. Human capital 16:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No it's not. See Talk:Socialism. Mercantilism and Fascism are generally considered capitalist, and they involve tight state control if not ownership. The cooperative movement, participatory economics, anarcho-collectivism, anarcho-communism, mutualism, and syndicalism are generally considered socialist, and they involve little or no state control. Jacob Haller 20:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Mercantilism and fascism are not state ownership of the means of production, so I don't know how your point is relevant. But I think you're wrong that mercantilism and fascism are considered capitalist by most commentators since capitalism is generally free market. Capitalism, as an economic system, is considered an alternative to mercantilism. And I didn't say socialism has to be state ownership. I said that if that state owns the means of production then that's a form of socialism, by mainstream definitions. Human capital 20:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Mercantilism and especially fascism would be prime examples of mixed economies and no one would dispute that. Human capital 20:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is supposed to be a paradigm of capitalist theory, and it's a refutation of mercantilism. Capitalism and mercantilism are not the same the thing. "The Marxist cannot distinguish between what is commonly referred to as capitalism, or a system of free trade, and mercantilism, or a system in which the operation of the market is impeded by extensive government restrictions for the benefit of the ruling group. It is important to realize that it is not simply that the Marxist does not distinguish between capitalism and mercantilism. It is that the Marxist paradigm quite literally renders him incapable of making such a distinction." [23] Human capital 20:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

What does Marx have to do with this?

People use the term "capitalism" to describe at least two very different phenomena (1) the presently-existing system, and/or an economic system characterized by capital profits, rent, and interest, and (2) the free market, including price signals, entepreneural profit, private ownership, and competition. It's an important distinction, and some socialist opponents of the presently-existing system have been advocates of free markets, with all the above characteristics. It is massive bias to impose Misesian redefinitions of capitalism and socialism on the rest of us. It is NPOV to note rival meanings of the same term and distinguish between them. Jacob Haller 00:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is imposing a "Misesian redefinition of capitalism." The mainstream definition of capitalism is what's in the intro right now. Not only does Mises accept it but so does everyone else in the mainstream. Capitalism is defined as a system of private ownership for profit in a largely unregulated market. No socialist advocates this. It's ludicrous that you would suggest that. If you have some other definition of capitalism that's fine, but it's not mainstream and hardly anyone accepts it so don't represent it as such. Human capital 04:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why you keep bringing up "the presently-existing system." What presently existing system? Where? What country? An economic system has to have a stable definition. The definition can't be continually changed to reflect the "presently existing system." Human capital 04:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

When most people talk about capitalism, they mean the economic system which emerged in the western world in the early 19th century, and which has existed in the western world, and spread through the rest of the world since that time. This is how most people use the word, and people have used this word (or equivalents like "the capitalist system") in the same or similar senses since the mid-19th-century, long before anyone equated capitalism with markets.

You state, of free markets, that "no socialist advocates this." There are definite elements of this in the Ricardoan school, and full-blown free-market models in mutualist and individualist anarchist socialism, in the individualist-syndicalist synthesis of Dyer Lum, and so on. Of course we can debate the exact meaning of "ownership for profit" 'till the sun goas down. Jacob Haller 06:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I call the U.S. a generally capitalist system, but I also know that it's not pure capitalism. There are characteristics present in the U.S. economy that are not considered part of the characteristics of capitalism, such as government regulation of wages, government ownership of some enterprises, some centralized economic planning including government-directed investment, and some protectionism. There is no serious person who would deny that the U.S. is mixed rather than purely capitalistic. There are capitalist elements and non-capitalist elements. You say that capitalism is "the economic system which emerged in the western world in the early 19th century, and which has existed in the western world." That's a really odd statement. There are a number of economic systems that have "emerged" in the western world. Each country has its own unique system. So to say that there are all simply "capitalism" is absurd. They're all mixed, some closer to pure capitalism than others. And I state again, no socialist advocates private ownership of the means of production operated for profit in the context of free markets. Human capital 15:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, yes, it's "descriptive" not "constructive" but you see my point that this jars with an idea of an essential definition. The definitions of capitalism I read in sociological and historical circles, btw, make no mention of an absence of regulation, they define it as the emergence of marketisation of relations. Many mainstream commentators would include regulation in any notion of capitalism.--Red Deathy 06:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Non-coercive regulation is fine. Industries often regulate themselves because of public demand. JoeCarson 10:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course is the abscense of regulation. If the government is not allowing the market to set price and production levels but is dictating them as in North Korea, that's not capitalism. Human capital 15:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that, say, Health and safety legislation is anti-capitalist and it's very existence means that a system becomes mixed? Or could it be that capitalists themselves want regulation in some quarters in order to enable markets - after all, half the work of the EU is standardising standards so that a single market can be created...--Red Deathy 08:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No of course not. We're talking about regulations on supply and demand, not health and safety regulations. In a capitalist system businesses decide how much they're going to produce, what they're going to produce, and are free to set their own pricing of goods and labor which is itself based on unregulated supply and demand. If central economic planning starts coming in (government deciding what's going to be produced, pricing of goods and labor, etc) that's when it starts becoming mixed. Human capital 16:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

POV in Globalization section

Ultramarine's ditty on poverty is falsely sourced - i.e The sources do not attribute rising living standards in the third world to capitalism. They don't even mention it and Reason magazine is a partisan resource. More than weasel referencing --maxrspct ping me 14:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok .. no discussion? then - see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Economy, trade, and companies for RFC on that section. -- maxrspct ping me 15:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Rising living standards in the 3rd world are largely a result of moving from socialism to capitalism, especially in India and China. However, the section removed by User:max rspct doesn't really belong, as it is improperly sourced. Finding decent sources to show that the transition to capitalism has enormously improved living standards in those parts of the third world which have started on the transition should be easy. Argyriou (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Jacob Haller 23:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Here from the RFC. Reason satisfies WP:RS and WP:V, especially since the cite is merely recounting widely available statistics. (Moreover, Reason is nonpartisan, and far less biased than many other sources cited in this article.) As for the material, it's no more POV than the mention of allegations of growing income inequality. Perhaps the whole "Globalization" section should be deleted, but if it's to be included, then NPOV requires all points of view--including the point of view that globalization has improved living standards--should be included. The controversial passage could use a little clean-up, but the article as a whole suffers from a distinct lack of WFTE. THF 06:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless the statisticians who compiled the statistics, or someone else in a verifiable sources, argued that the statistics indicate a causal relation, we cannot make such a claim or else we violate NOR. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand the WP:SYN policy. The Reason piece makes the connection between capitalism and the improving QOL of the world identified by Kenny. THF 16:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I have also added another source.Ultramarine 20:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Ultra, can you readd your source in the footnotes? The text you added was redundant with the text that was already there, and you didn't provide enough information for the reference for the footnote. Thx. THF 21:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

'Reason' is a bias/partisan source. The section is detached from rest of article. The first 2 works don't even mention capitalism or free markets.. so how can they support paragraphs that should be in the support section. A meadering editorial. Huh? -- maxrspct ping me 21:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not playing Argument Clinic. You've already said that, and everyone disagrees with you, and just repeating it without adding new information is not helpful. THF 21:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Not everyone. "Reason" is a notoriously partisan source. Jacob Haller 06:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

User:TedFrank (THF), please be civil. Every time to talk to me you are extremely uncivil, do not have an answer or remedy and you make provocative accusations. Please collaborate over the article. maxrspct ping me 09:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It is okay to use partisan sources as long as they are clearly identified as such. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we rewrite the whole article in conjunction with the globalization(?) section. Including the following issues and related arguments:

• Whether globalization is anything new and what form it has taken.
• Social changes, poverty, defintions of poverty and standard of living.
• Capitalism, oppportunity and social class.
• Free trade issues and international politics

All with the relevent viewpoints, sourced and written to give the reader a fair overview of capitalism, its associated social and societal issues and economic systems across the globe. I see there is little on free trade, banks, work, microcredit, legacies and/or continuation of empire and anthropological approaches. Absent is computerization, the internet and web trade, legislation outside free trade agreements. General business issues and business landscapes or comparisons. Demographics? Nothing on reciprocity, history and pre-capitalist form of culture or capitalism in South America (Argentina for exp), and those areas where capitalism has had no problems with dictatorial regimes, genocide, exploitation and corruption. All sourced with indictors whether they are partisan.. from Reason magazine to labour institutes.--maxrspct ping me 16:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do not delete sourced material. If you have sources for the above, it would be very good in the globalization article. Here space is limited.Ultramarine 20:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

There are in fact numerous problems, both conceptual and empirical, with this section. For the moment I will not explore all of the deficiencies. I will simply turn to the last paragraph which begins with the empirical claim that "economic growth in the last half-century has been consistently strong." Well, what is this claim doing in a section on globalisation, who says so, and relative to what? The claim is only tenuously substantiated by an op-ed from a partisan source. [[24]]. A far superior source is Ha-Joon Chang of Cambridge University, one of the world's most cited development economists, who in an article in The Prospect from early July 2007 claims that: [quote] "the truth is that free traders make the lives of those whom they are trying to help more difficult. The evidence for this is everywhere. Despite adopting supposedly "good" policies, like liberal foreign trade and investment and strong patent protection, many developing countries have actually been performing rather badly over the last two and a half decades. The annual per capita growth rate of the developing world has halved in this period, compared to the "bad" old days of protectionism and government intervention in the 1960's and the 1970's. Even this modest rate has been achieved only because the average includes China and India- two fast-growing giants, which have gradually liberalised their economies but have resolutely refused to put on Thomas Friedman's golden straitjacket." [[25]] "Friedman's golden straitjacket" refers to Thomas Friedman's summary of globalist policy prescription which is namely: privatisation, low inflation, reduction of government, budget balancing, trade liberalisation, deregulation of foreign investment and capital markets, currency convertability, corruption reduction and pension privatisation.BernardL 22:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

An important reason for the good numbers durng the 60s and 70 were the boom in commodity prices. In the 80s and 90s these prices collapsed due overproduction stimulated by the high prices, which in turn decreased the economic growth in developing nations dependent on such exports. Worldwide growth has been very good in recent years. The world is expected to have an amazing 5.2% growth next year.[26] Growth has been very good also in Africa during the 2000s.[27]Ultramarine 18:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm passing through doing POV tag cleanup. It seems to me that you all have reached a fair consensus on this matter, and while I'm not an expert it reads well to me. I won't delete the POV tag, but I would suggest that one of you editors do, if you all feel comfortable with it. For one thing the "good article" status of this topic is on pause partly because of the tag. Be bold..Jjdon (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I was checking out the POV tags as well and I also feel that this discussion has been completed and that the NPOV warning should be removed.Rs148004 (talk) 06:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

External links

The first link seems factual and neutral.

Capitalism.org

and

Why Do Intellectuals Oppose Capitalism? by Robert Nozick

are two webpages that have a right-wing ideological agenda promoting capitalism. Since there are no links that presents an alternative view, readers of the Capitalism article might get the impression that the article itself is ideologically biased.

Olofmbolsson 23:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This view is upheld by Hayek as well. All webpages that promote capitalism or socialism may be accused of having a "right-wing ideological agenda promoting capitalism" or a "left-wing idealogical agenda promoting socialism." Hayek demonstrated a noticeable bais by intellectuals in general towards socialism. To keep things neutral, such bais must be brought to light. The link should remain. Jcchat66 23:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

"To keep things neutral, such bais must be brought to light." -- this argument makes no sense at all! It is a complete obfuscation. Olofmbolsson 23:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Then please elaborate. Why does it not make sense? If you want to improve the article, offer suggestions for improvement and explain your opinions. Jcchat66 15:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason it does not make sense is that Hayek's view is itself a view. I have no problem representing this view in the article, but (1) it must be presented as a view, not the truth and (2) we should include other views. This is how we achieve neutrality. When you say "such bias must be brought to light" it sounds as if you mean this article ought to acknowledge a particular truth. That violates our policies, which are about verifiability not truth. We do not bring "such bias" to light, we bring to light the fact that some people hold to a particular view that there is "such bias." That makes sense. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

What if we could add “USA should have built massive 100-story Tower cities connected to maglev Trains, NOT cars, weapons, small buildings”? That destroys capitalism. See? Sundiii (talk) 18:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I deleted this external link because it gives no information on capitalism in general and only about 1 person's view on specifically intellectuals' views on capitalism which would only be appropriate on an article about Intellectuals and Capitalism per Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided13. This on top of the POV issues mentioned above. Munci (talk) 11:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I moved it to Critique of capitalism. -- Vision Thing -- 10:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This has a lot of good quotes about eliminating money but I don't know if it could be added: http://666ismoney.com/MoneyQuotes.html Is it acceptable for External Links? Stars4change (talk) 21:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Can this Michael Parenti Youtube speech be added to External links? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJLaRhTKzw8&feature=related Stars4change (talk) 00:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Can this Noam Chomsky Youtube speech be added in External Links? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFxYyXGMfZM&NR=1 Stars4change (talk) 00:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Marx

'Prior to this, Karl Marx was critical of the "capitalist mode of production" but does not refer to "capitalism" in the sense of a comprehensive economic system.'

This is obviously absurd, defying both what Marx said and internal logic.--Jack Upland 08:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, quick search of Marx online find This quote in Capital I where he uses the word. "These same rights remain in force both at the outset, when the product belongs to its producer, who, exchanging equivalent for equivalent, can enrich himself only by his own labour, and also in the period of capitalism, when social wealth becomes to an ever-increasing degree the property of those who are in a position to appropriate continually and ever afresh the unpaid labour of others." Kill it, kill it 'orribly...--Red Deathy 08:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Adam Smith

The section on Smith omits his view that "sympathy" is a key human value and that much of his philosophy has been greatly misrepresented. The Gutenberg file on Smith has searchable text for "The Wealth of Nations," so that's a good place to start. More immediately, anarchist critiques like Chomsky's are useful: quoting at length, Smith was "pre-capitalist, a figure of the Enlightenment. What we would call capitalism he despised. People read snippets of Adam Smith, the few phrases they teach in school. Everybody reads the first paragraph of The Wealth of Nations where he talks about how wonderful the division of labor is. But not many people get to the point hundreds of pages later, where he says that division of labor will destroy human beings and turn people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be. ... He did give an argument for markets, but the argument was that under conditions of perfect liberty, markets will lead to perfect equality. That's the argument for them, because he thought that equality of condition (not just opportunity) is what you should be aiming at" (in Class Warfare [1995, with David Barsamian]). Another secondary source is Iain McLean's book Adam Smith, Radical and Egalitarian: An Interpretation for the 21st Century -- for which its publisher, Edinburgh University Press, says that Smith "was not [a] promoter of ruthless laissez-faire capitalism".Walla Walla 22:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)Walla Walla 06:57, 9 October 2007 (EST)

I know it may be a bit late to ask you but could you supply a reference for Adam Smith despising Capitalism? And also the division of labour; where he feels it will turn us all into stupid creatures? Also what the hell are you talking about Markets for like they can be stopped? Can you define a market for me? Its crap like this that allows the "Capitalism" article to survive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.100 (talk) 11:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

De Mercado, De Soto and other catholic theoreticians?

Hm.. Wouldn't be good to include something about theories of economy propagated by catholic scholastics like Thomas de Mercado, Domingo de Soto and others? You know, in XVI century? Theories about private ownership, banking, trdaing etc? Szopen 08:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless you can show that the authors have something to do with capitalism, no. If you can, yes. In themselves or in combination, private ownership, banking, and trading don't imply capitalism in any sense of the term. Jacob Haller 18:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Question on the deaths "Caused by Capitalism"

If capitalism supposedly caused 147 million deaths as the article claims, how many have been caused by communism, socialism, feudalism, etc? It seems the author uses this figure without proper context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.162.0.41 (talk) 19:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is that? Was it deleted? I would say it was far more than that even: count every car crash death, every war, every suicide, every crime, every person killed violently (hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, etc) because we should have built only Tower cities connected to maglev Trains to save lives & the earth. Sundiii (talk) 23:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Is The Black Book of Capitalism considered a credible source? If so, why is there no citation provided for the reference, and why is it not listed in the sources at the bottom, with its author named, so that readers can assess the source for themselves? 68.54.160.137 (talk) 02:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see the article devoted to the book to find your answers. I detailled slightly the split of the 147 millions. People can judge by themselves the logics of making capitalisme responsible for slavery of World War II.. --Bombastus (talk) 10:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Both of those numbers are quite meaningless when compared directly, since the systems did not exist for the same length of time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.235.58 (talk) 15:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Added sources

I added three sources under the Weberian political sociology section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.95.10 (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge from

• Capitalism The Spontaneous "invisible hand" and "free market economics" in market economy must be merged into free market. I suggest the Criticisms from that article to be merged with this article. Singwaste. (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Market economy#Spontaneous order or .22Invisible hand.22 and Market economy#Free market economy shall be merged into Free market. Capitalism#Criticisms of capitalism is already extensive. The Critisism from Noam Chomsky in Free market#Criticism isn't actually speaking of free markets bu of todays capitalistic system because he thinks what exists today is a free market(a result of the fussiness in terminology as explained thurally by, Definitional concerns in anarchist theory#The .22Zaxlebax.22 Problem). Free_market#Noam Chomsky can and ought to be moved to Critique of capitalism. Lord Metroid (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Free market This is a theoretic article, but in the article market economy, the "invisible hand" is theory, which should be merge into this article. The "free market economics" section in that article is basically equivalent to this article. We have duplicate sections such as "economic freedom" and "communist comparisons". We have Adam Smith. We also have the same criticism should moved to criticism of capitalism. We already have the practical economics article: laissez-faire. Singwaste (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The invisible hand should be moved to free market as stated above. Market economy is better to be a summary of market systems. I will take care of this. Lord Metroid (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Criticism of libertarianism some should moved to Critique of capitalism. Singwaste (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of libertarianism like Criticism of socialism needs to stay because otherwise the lenght of the articles would become in violation to wikipedia's policies on article lenght. However I notices that unlike Socialism#Criticisms of socialism, Libertarianism does not have a abstract section of the main article, that needs to be added. The critique on the article Criticism of libertarianism are the common critique libertarianism recieves I don't see how it can possibly be moved to capitalism as libertarianism and capitalism is not the same concepts. Lord Metroid (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of libertarianism needs to remain. Libertarianism and Capitalism are not the same thing. While some of the criticism may sound similar, Libertarianism is a political theory that speaks to economic, social and political-function theory, whereas Capitalism is an economic-political theory that does not directly address issues like natural rights, social morality and freedom. The two are remarkably different. izaakb ~talk ~contribs 02:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Criticism of capitalism should be merged from critics sections from these articles Singwaste. (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As Capitalism#Criticisms_of_capitalism is so extensive and Market_economy#Criticism of market economy fits in my opinion better as an absrtact section in Capitalism instead of what is now. Lord Metroid (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Laissez-faire Should be merged from economic libertarianism and economic liberalism Singwaste. (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
• Economic liberalism Should be moved to laissez-faire Singwaste. (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
• Economic libertarianism No such phrase, move to laissez-faire Singwaste. (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I never heard of both these terms but they are in principle both the same concept the difference is that liberalism was used before the 19th century and libertarianism is the modern rewording of the principles. Economic libertarianism would fit nicely in laissez-faire#modern revival of laissez-faire theory and Economic liberalism in Laissez-faire#History of Laissez-faire. Lord Metroid (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Market economy moved to laissez-faire and merged from economlc liberlism Economic liberalism and criticism section to capitalism. Singwaste (talk) 05:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

After are surgery on Market economy which will result in a cleanup of the article, I don't think we need to do much with it. Market economy is common term and concept and so needs to have an article on. Lord Metroid (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Please conduct these discussions on talk pages of relevant articles. -- Vision Thing -- 22:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• History of capitalist theory merge proposed in 2008-09, if no support for that (article already fairly long) remove the tag.

Went ahead and removed tag for this from Perspectives section, added discussion entry on the Merge From article which is obviously too big to merge in the § in question. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Ayn Rand

"She was the first person to morally justify capitalism with a new code of morality (Rational Selfishness)" - I think this line needs to be taken out. How is rational selfishness a new code except under its own name? She is not the first obviously. --maxrspct ping me 21:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone Else Says: Also was'nt Adam Smith (1778) the classical economist to talk about the self-interest of people in the distribution of wealth, guided by the invisible hand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.100 (talk) 14:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Adam Smith was more of a philosopher than an economist. His more famous work The Wealth of Nations built upon and included a system of morals from his earlier work The Theory of Moral Sentiments. She was certainly not the "first person to endow capitalism with a new code of morality" nor will she be the last. -AmericanPi April 9, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.103.200 (talk) 02:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Lead section

I noticed some contributors still have a problem knowing how to write a lead section. If anybody knows how to surmise an intro, please do so. Kransky (talk) 15:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the guideline, three to four paragraphs are customary when it comes to articles of this length. -- Vision Thing -- 21:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Word length is a better measure of brevity. A lead section should not get bogged down trying to be too descriptive, too prescriptive or critiquing its conventional definition. You could just say:

• Capitalism generally refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production are predominantly privately-owned and operated for profit. Investment, distribution, income, production, pricing and other economic activity are usually determined by the owners of these means of production according to their own self-interest. Almost all countries in the world have adopted elements of capitalism in their economic systems. Kransky (talk) 02:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Except that they are not privately held. They are generally held by public corporations i.e. corporations with shars of ownership that are publically traded. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing capitalist (as a person) definition

The article capitalist redirects to capitalism. Because of that, this article should mention what a capitalist is. The old article (before redirect) was [28]. It was redirected in June 2005 with comment: redirect to capitalism article whose intro notes the usage of "capitalist", which is not true anymore. Kricke (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Do we even need an article for this? Kransky (talk) 08:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not, but this article should perhaps mention it? Kricke (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't exactly see the point of it. Do we have an article for socialist, individualist, marxist, communist and so fort? Do we mention in the articles what the name means? No, before we try to write an encyclopedia and not a dictionnary.. --Bombastus (talk) 12:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but there is a difference between those you mention. All those words means advocates of the same ideology (a socialist is an advocate for socialism et.c), while "capitalst" does not, in its original meaning (i.e. a capitalist can be against capitalism as a political system). Kricke (talk) 15:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think including the words "A capitalist is somebody who derives income from capital" will expand the frontiers of human knowledge. Kransky (talk) 11:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It won't. No article on Wikipedia does, or should. That would be original research. Anyway, as it is now. Wikipedia implicitly is saying that Capitalist is someone who advocates capitalism. And that is wrong or atleast POV. But alright. I don't care. Kricke (talk) 12:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Kricke points us to a direction out of this debate when s/he brings up original research. The opposite of original research is source-based research. So what determines ehther Wiipedia has an article "capitalist," or even whether this article has a section, "capitalist," is simply this: is there a body of literature on capitalists? I think the word may actually originate in a novel. I can see an article called "capitalist that has a section on "capitalists in literature," I am sure there must be several articles and books by scholars of comparitive literature on the portrayal of capitalists in literature. What aqbout real capitalists? I do not know. Social historians have published many studies on workers, but I do not know of any studies of capitalists. But maybe there are, by social historians or economic historians. It is also worth looking to see if there are any sociological studies of capitalists. in short, if there are reliable notable sources, there is a place for it in Wikipedia. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

There is an enormous literature on individual businesspeople - some of which is scholarly. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Kricke, you are correct in that the original pejorative meaning of the word capitalist, minted by William Thackeray in the 1850s and refined in Marx "Das Kapital" in the 1860s as "one who owns working capital" held that meaning exclusively until recently, and typically used in this meaning in communist & socialist countries by official establishments should be mentioned in this article. But today the word has been used by so many people to mean "someone who supports capitalism", especially among scientists that it has come to mean that too. I support that the original meaning should be mentioned in the article since much of the original literature would be incomprehensible without this fact. DanielDemaret (talk) 02:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC) I changed my mind a bit. It need not be in this article. The redirect should be corrected instead to be a disambiguation, since the redirect today is misleading. DanielDemaret (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Good article nomination

Please place reviews in this section. Gary King (talk) 02:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This still needs some work before GA. Several paragraphs are missing citations, and there is an NPOV tag on one of the sections. These things will have to be fixed. Feel free to renominate once they are. Wrad (talk) 01:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Fernand Braudel's Capitalism and Civilization, Volume II as a source

The best general discussion of the etymology and definition(s) of capitalism I have read lie in Volume II of French historian Fernand Braudel's "Civilization and Capitalism, Volume II, The Wheels of Commerce", pp.232-239.

Seems to me this might save a lot of confusion and add some valuable information to the discussion and debate.

Among other valuable insights, Braudel points out that Karl Marx never, in fact, used the word "capitalism", which does not appear anywhere before the twentieth century; not even in Max Weber's critique. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.94.44.70 (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph removed

The following was removed :

• Some labor historians and other scholars, such as Immanuel Wallerstein and Marcel van der Linden, have also argued that unfree labor — the use of a labor force comprised of slaves, indentured servants, criminal convicts, political prisoners and/or other coerced persons — is compatible with capitalist relations.

and twice replaced by an unsourced passage, without explanation. I have made basic copy edits to the new passage, but believe this to be the more solid piece of writing and research. JNW (talk) 01:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the above paragraph to the article, and left the newer version as well. JNW (talk) 01:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

More Neocon Vandalism? Twice now Vision Thing has removed from the criticisms section of the Wiki entry on Capitalism one particular contribution to the debate about the acceptability to capitalism of unfree labor. The reference in question is a book by Brass, Towards a Comparative Political Economy of Unfree Labor, a text published in 1999 consisting of articles appearing throughout the 1980s. Even the least bright member of humanity will appreciate that, in chronological terms this text precedes that on the same subject by Marcel van der Linden, published in 2003. Either the latter also goes, or both van der Linden and Brass stay. I am posting this on your website, where it is one of many similar objections to interventions by you in areas where your competence to do so is – how shall I say this – not of the greatest. 8 April 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.103.64 (talk) 18:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Definition of capitalism weak

The wikipedia article begins with a statement that "capitalism refers to" which is not a definition. Here is a better definition: "Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights. This includes property rights, in which property is privately owned. Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), as well as from religion. Capitalism is a system of political freedom." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Honeydinner (talk • contribs) 18:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No-ones replied, but I suppose - the current def. is hard fopught and well referenced, and close enough to being accurate - or at least broadly supported - to count. Your suggested ref. is fundamentally inaccurate.--Red Deathy (talk) 12:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Dictionaries are about words, encyclopedia articles are about things that words refer to, in this case, it can be an idea or a social system. When addressing complex matters, a definition would be a positively bad way to begin. At best it would oversimplify, and at worst - as in Honeydinner's suggestion - it would forward one POV, thus violating NPOV. There are many views of capitalism and they are presented in detail and in an NPOV way in the body of the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)67.77.231.18 (talk) 05:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Laissez Faire

Why is laissez faire capitalism only mention in a single sentence near the end of the article. It is a major branch of capitalism. It has its own article, but a mention earlier in this article would be nice.70.151.125.19 (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Arbiter099

Edits

Capitalism sucks, I think it should be included in the article. It is very notable subject and most everybody agrees that capitalism sucks to the bone. Viper55 (talk) 09:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Capitalism is a political system, and therefore different people have different views on if it's good or bad. To write that it sucks is not very smart, since it is an opinion. Also, most people does not think that capitalism sucks, so why would that be in the article (you would probably want to write that without any source, right?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.235.22.76 (talk) 16:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

'M'&Ms says: Since this section says edits I would like to address something. In the first paragraph the time private property is defined as not ownd or controlled by the state. True, property cannot be private if it is owned by the state but this is insufficient as a definition.

What needs to be added is a reference to Commonon Law. Under Common Law 'everybody' (I'm using the term within reason here) owned the resource. However, it was not state owned. What private property means is that 'the bundle of use rights' is centralised with one or a few individuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.100 (talk) 10:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Disaster Capitalism

First coined by Naomi Klein in a April 14, 2005 The Nation article and later expanded into a 720 page book, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, released June 24, 2008.

http://www.naomiklein.org

"Disaster Capitalism" refers to economic policies instituted in the wake of disasters. Such disasters could be caused by political upheaval, war, natural disasters.

Although the main thrust of Klein's articles and book focuses on the Bush Administration and neo-conservatives (neocons) efforts, the term "Disaster Capitalism" is not new and can also be used to apply to liberal/progressive economic policies.

For example, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal could be seen as an exercise in "Disaster Capitalism" due to the programs and reforms instituted in the wake of the Great Depression.

The "war on terror" is also an exercise in "Disaster Capitalism" with policies instituted to strengthen the military-industrial complex.

Also see:

"Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" By John Perkins

"Whose Freedom? The Battle Over America's Most Important Idea" By George Lakoff

MacInEnterprise (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be a catch-phrase coined by the Author to convey, what he/she thinks to be, a phenomenon that can be isolated and define seperate from other economic phenomena. However, unlike e.g. "efficiency wage" it does not have a track record and could be forgotten about. Why are you writing about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.100 (talk) 11:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Monopoly Capitalism

Unlike state monopoly capitalism, monopoly capitalism is an economy dominated by oligopolistic corporations earning "supernormal" profits.

MacInEnterprise (talk) 00:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it not "oligopolistic capitalism" then? Or just oligopoly as we say in economics. Or perhaps you just meant 'Monopolistic competition? A monopoly means one seller; so cannot refer to oligopoly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.100 (talk) 11:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

THE DEVIL IN EGYPT AS JACOBITE CAPITALISM:... here it happened again, on the cusp, just when you thought a neo had userpered the beholder terrorism is in jabbawocky affection, there becomes a philistein obligation to censor 'it seems' what is translation ; that is to say that "each time you know they have to - they [somehow] know they don't" ;; in this way as it is a box of choclate liquours from lucifer - people are twice shy of in a way, it is realised that 'no this time' is winning :: only - no it isn't is gaining where it is realised more productively that such ^sticks in the mud^ are more than what they seem, so || but then you realise - that they think they are right to stop production on this terminus beleiving it to be counter-productive on their islands -mmm,, in that case is it why,, because the most difficult thing to prove or realise is that they are based fundamentally on the fact that we are evolving into a more peaceful human being is why they are climate changelings... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.249.118 (talk) 12:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Citation 3, beginning of article

Ideally, capitalist systems are governed by the free price system set by the law of supply and demand rather than government regulation,[3]

That is stating opinion, not fact and should not be at the start of the article. Pricing systems are more complicated than the law of supply and demand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.26.140.115 (talk) 00:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

question

I know it is an importnt facet of Marxian theory of capitlism that capital is mobile, and that it is way more mobile today than in Marx's time. this is not an idea limited to Marx; I think any ecoomist today acknowledges the importance of "liquidity" in markets. Can anyone suggest a few short, well-respected, and accessible sources that goes over this, both in theory and in today's economy? thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 00:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Look up De Soto; The Mystery of Capital. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.100 (talk) 11:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

"Unrestrained Capitalism"

While laissez-faire includes both minarchism and anarchism, the link to Anarcho-capitalism for "unrestrained capitalism" is more accurate than one to the Laissez-faire article, as the former abolishes the state entirely while the latter generally seeks to retain it in some minimal form. JLMadrigal (talk) 03:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Examine the source. It's not referring to anarcho-captialism. When most people refer to unrestrained capitalism they're not referring to anarcho-capitalism. They're just referring to laissez-faire capitalism. Dropperada (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalism is a political position, favoring the abolition of the state; unrestrained capitalism is an economic position, favoring a lack of state intervention in the economy. It's not obvious that unrestrained capitalism requires abolishing the state, indeed, I think a lot of people would argue that capitalism of any form, unrestrained or not, requires a state; this is a matter of debate. So, I think equating unrestrained capitalism and anarcho-capitalism is misleading. VoluntarySlave (talk) 22:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

indices of economic freedom

I removed this stuff because it looks like OR - it is not specifically about capitalism. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

overview

There should be a section at the start that has just the main points about capitalism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.29.208 (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. the problem is, there are so many views of capitalism, and even definitions, that it is really hard to comply with our NPOV policy AND be concise in the introduction. We really have tried our best.

A long time ago I helped craft this, but now banned user user:RJII deleted it repeatedly. I am not sure whether other people who watch this page would wish to resurrect it but here it is just in case people are curious:

Capitalism generally refers to

• a combination of economic practices that became institutionalized in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries. Exactly which historic and current practices are considered part of "capitalism" varies among users of the term. Ways in which this period differed from earlier ones include the prevalence of wage labor, the private ownership of capital including land, relatively freer trade (but see mercantilism), and the enforcement by the state of private property rights rather than feudal obligations.

• competing (and contentious) theories that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and 20th century, in the context of the Cold War, meant to justify the private ownership of capital, to explain the operation of such markets, and to guide the application or elimination of government regulation of property and markets.

• and beliefs about the advantages of such practices.

Well, that was my best effort (of course, others worked on it - it was more or less stable for over a year before it was deleted). Slrubenstein | Talk 22:37, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I must say I am amazed by this definition: it is concise, neutral, accurate, and complete. I suppose though it is far too neutral to be accepted by the POV warring majority. —Jemmy_tc 09:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Anarchists?

Under the "Criticism" header, second paragraph, the article notes that capitalism has been criticized by "anarchists including [...] Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, and others."

Can anyone show that Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein are actually "anarchists" in the sense of the Wikipedia definition of anarchism: "Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing theories and attitudes which support the elimination of all compulsory government, i.e. the state."

If anything, Chomsky and Klein seem to support more state intervention in capitalism, not less. This would definitely make them something other than anarchists. I would like to think that the Wikipedia authors would know the difference between a social critic and an anarchist. Please fix this mistake, before I have to.

Jreans (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Chomsky is certainly an anarchist, as you can see from his Wikipedia page; though he does support some state intervention as a short-term measure, his general position is the standard anarchist one of opposition to both capitalism and the state. However, Klein isn't an anarchist; she calls herself a democratic socialist, by which she means she supports some kind of mixed economy [29]. We could mention her in the subsequent sentence on social democracy, although it would be odd if Klein were the only social democrat mentioned by name; if anyone wants to add a list of notable social democrats, that might be a useful addition.VoluntarySlave (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope everyone here realizes that when anarchists, marxists, sociologists, etc., talk about "capitalism" they mean something completely different than what is the subject of this article. Roughly, it is the form of society in which everywhere you go and everything you do, you are on or using someone's private property, and that is why he can tell you what to do (with a realistic threat of violence if you disobey). This is distinguished from other forms of society, in which the threat of violence takes some form other than property, such as class or racial status (aristocracies, castes, "colonialism," etc.), familial or kinship power structures ("patriarchy" or the complex particularistic social structures of primitive societies) or integration of an entire society into an explicit command structure (military societies like Sparta, Prussia; bureaucratic-totalitarian societies like USSR, fascism). N.B.: it has nothing to do with "laissez faire" economics, but rather sociological power structure. In many historical societies, interpersonal power is largely unattached to property; these are not sociologically capitalist societies. In all sociologically capitalist societies, interpersonal power takes forms other than property (for example, the USA has had a racial underclass with a distinct social status for a very long time: first slavery, then apartheid; yet even in this case, segregation was implemented and justified in the form of and in the terms of private property); for this reason, there is no such thing as "pure" capitalism. —Jemmy_tc 09:05, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Capitalism coined by Karl Marx

The recent reverts ([30] [31] [32]) here are not requisites, as several sources exist for the claim that the term originated from the economist named Karl Marx.

Authentic, authoritative sources exist that claims the fact. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, capitalism was first used by novelist William Makepeace Thackeray in 1854, by which he meant having ownership of capital. In 1867, Proudhon used the term "capitalist" to refer to owners of capital, and Marx and Engels refer capitalism to the capitalist mode of production (kapitalistische Produktionsform) and in Das Kapital to "Kapitalist", "capitalist" (meaning a private owner of capital). Saunders, Peter (1995). Capitalism. University of Minnesota Press. p. 1 Singwaste (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Excuse, but Proudhon has died 1865. As he could used the term "capitalist" in 1867? Klip game (talk) 17:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Without a citation we can't say, but it may have been in something published posthumously. --causa sui ^talk 19:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it would clarify many things if the article distinguished between "capitalism" as a set of beliefs about the economy, and "capitalist mode of production" which forwards the diea of a capitalist system that can be analyzed objectively. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Reference [2] is for agorism not capitalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.104.230 (talk) 10:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of debates on the merits of capitalism

PS. I have removed some sections from this talk page, because they were completely irrelevant to the article, or long dead and worthless. I hope nobody finds that somehow inappropriate. There is still way too much; signal to noise ratio on this talk page is quite bad. Reader, I implore you, be bold: cull the wheat from the chaff; do not let worthless discussion fill up the page out of some general principle that nothing should be deleted, but judge each discussion by its potential to improve the article. Moreover, do not allow a long, fruitless discussion to remain merely because it provides context to some single valuable comment. There is much more danger of good discussion being lost in a barrage of inanity (or being completely discouraged by it), than of any permanent loss due to overambitious pruning. The change I am making will naturally lead to a huge and worthless ideological debate unless action is taken to stop it. —Jemmy_tc 10:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Please don't delete material from the discussion page unless it's completely inappropriate. I haven't checked all the removals, but the section discussing Bolivar which you erased most recently was about improving the article, so regardless of what you think of the quality of the discussion, it should stay. When a discussion page gets too long, material can be moved to an an archive (like this). I'll try to restore the lost material. CRETOG8(t/c) 14:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I think I got all your comments back in--please double-check, and I'm sorry if I goofed and missed something CRETOG8(t/c) 14:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The Bolivar discussion had degenerated into a debate about whether Chavez is a dictator. That indeed is "completely inappropriate." Those little warning sign templates about not turning the talk page into a forum to debate capitalism are not working. (Note that the template does say such material will be deleted.) You have reverted all my deletions without giving any consideration to them individually. As far as I am concerned, adding material without specifically verifying its content is equivalent to deleting material randomly. It amounts to deleting whatever other material is drowned in the noise; it means that that material will lose readers. And really, the Bolivar discussion was terrible. If there is a living issue about Bolivar and the article, it can be brought back up; a blank page is more promising for that than what was there.

I would like to point out that I did read each deleted section individually before deciding to delete it, but apparently you added every section back at once without reading. In a sense you reverted my reading; you destroyed the value created by that reading, value which I attempted to share by deleting. In other words, I was saving future editors some of the chore of reading (and weeding) through this talk page; but you re-created that chore for them. My changes are informed and highly specific. Your wholesale revert, on the other hand, is randomly destructive. So I'm going to unrevert, just once, after which I will completely give up on this page. Still, I ask that if you object to any of my deletions, please re-add only the specific material to which you object.

Please do not make changes which you have not specifically examined! —Jemmy_tc 00:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I examined enough to see that some of the material you removed was focused on improving the article. That's enough that I didn't feel the need to examine more closely. While this talk page shouldn't degenerate into a debate forum, that's more a prospective than retrospective matter--better to leave the fluff with the well-intended efforts at improvement than throw it all out. Deleting that stuff is counter to talk page guidelines. Again, I've tried to restore the material you removed while leaving in the recent conversations. That's quite a nuisance, so I'd rather not have to keep doing it. CRETOG8(t/c) 06:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

You say, "I examined enough to see that some of the material you removed was focused on improving the article." This is exactly my point. You reverted all of the changes because you disagreed with some of the changes. In doing this you are making reversions without even knowing what you are doing. —Jemmy_tc 14:29, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The introduction will be replaced

The introduction to this article defines capitalism under the presupposition that nothing but either markets or "central planning" can exist, or has ever existed, as characterizing economic production. This is an ideological attempt to erase history. The introduction to this paragraph asserts -- implicitly -- that there was no such thing as feudalism or serfdom. It asserts that there have been no hunter-gatherers or societies directing production through slavery or caste. It takes for granted that production can universally be described in terms of "investments, distribution, income, and pricing." It fails to recognize that production can, has, and does take forms completely other than exchange.

I am sure whoever wrote it merely lacks the historical perspective in which to understand that "capitalism" is not merely the opposite of "communism," but nevertheless the the current introduction is the repetition of an ideological lie that McCarthyism injected into the American school system in the 1950s -- and which of course is alive and well in today's ideological justifications of capitalism. But this is not a neutral point of view, or even an informed point of view, so it has no place here.

I cannot merely remove the implicit assertions which are present, without leaving the introduction incoherent. For this reason I will replace it with the careful and complete definition I see posted elsewhere on this talk page, even though it will break the flow of the article (and probably provoke some people to anger, and lead to an edit war...). —Jemmy_tc 10:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Capitalism is the actual existing system, existing from the early nineteenth century until now. Before capitalism, mercantilism lasted from the sixteenth century to the eighteenth century. Feudalism, which preceeded mercantilism, was built by aristocrats after the collapse of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire, however, did not have a capitalistic economy, it had a market economy. So the unique features of the Roman Empire express the differences of capitalism and the free market.

The main features of the capitalistic economy, in contrast to the free market, is its prevalence of wage labor and the cartelization of capital by the state. The capitalistic economy requires state intervention in some infrastructural projects to remain functional. The American System has a basic tenet that the state should must have the obligation protect infrastructural industries. After the Reconstruction era of the United States, major industries including the telecommunication, oil, steel, railroad, transportation, and the rest of the "robber barons" are privileged by capitalist concentration. This is known as the Gilded Age.

Jemmy has got the correct knowledge that capitalism should be defined as the actual existing system beginning form the nineteenth century. If the current system is not capitalism, then what should we call the current system as? The whole article rests on the presumption that the current system is capitalism. Defining capitalism as a "purely" free market is inconsistent to the usage of the term in the rest of this article.

Everybody knows that the current system is mixed. There is no pure capitalism nor pure socialism. What does exist around the world are variations upon capitalism and variations upon socialism. Capitalist and socialist aspects are intermingled in all economies. If you want an article about "the current system," then maybe you could create an article called "the current system." No? This article is not supposed to be about "the current system." What is the current system? Which country are you even talking about? Jadabocho (talk) 17:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly not the case that "everybody knows that the current system is mixed." That is the point. The very idea of a "mixed system" with a "capitalist essence" defined as laissez-faire economic policy (and the introduction into it of "socialist impurities" defined by no more than exception to the capitalist essence) is an ideological construct, a creature of political divisions which place capitalism and socialism opposite one another on a spectrum (and always to promote capitalism, since the view implies a total ignorance of socialism as defined by socialists). That is most certainly not a neutral point of view. It is an ideological point of view; furthermore, it is an historically ignorant point of view. At best (and at the cost of some accuracy) it can be called a simplification for historically ignorant audiences; less charitably, an intentional distortion which conveniently removes history from view. In either case it owes its existence to use for political advocacy. It has no place in an encyclopedia except to be described as an ideology -- as the introduction I inserted does. —Jemmy_tc 15:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Contradictory section

Due to this contradiction, I removed some statements:

Mercantilism declined in Great Britain in the mid-18th century, when a new group of economic theorists, led by David Hume and Adam Smith, challenged fundamental mercantilist doctrines as the belief that the amount of the world’s wealth remained constant and that a state could only increase its wealth at the expense of another state. However, in more undeveloped economies, such as Prussia and Russia, with their much younger manufacturing bases, mercantilism continued to find favor after other states had turned to newer doctrines.

The mid-18th century gave rise to industrial (bourgeois) capitalism, made possible by the accumulation of vast amounts of capital under the merchant phase of capitalism and its investment in machinery. Industrial capitalism, which Marx dated from the last third of the 18th century, marked the development of the factory system of manufacturing, characterized by a complex division of labor between and within work process and the routinization of work tasks; and finally established the global domination of the capitalist mode of production. In the midst of this newly developing concept of division of labor came exploitation of labor on a much larger scale than was ever seen before.

During the resulting Industrial Revolution, the industrialist replaced the merchant as a dominant actor in the capitalist system and effected the decline of the traditional handicraft skills of artisans, guilds, and journeymen. Also during this period, capitalism marked the transformation of relations between the British landowning gentry and peasants, giving rise to the production of cash crops for the market rather than for subsistence on a feudal manor. The surplus generated by the rise of commercial agriculture encouraged increased mechanization of agriculture and the rise of the bourgeoisie.

The rise of industrial capitalism was also associated with the decline of mercantilism. Mid- to late-nineteenth-century Britain is widely regarded as the classic case of industrial (bourgeois) capitalism. Capitalism gained favor over mercantilism in Britain in the 1840s with the repeal of the Corn Laws and the Navigation Acts. In line with the teachings of the classical political economists, led by Adam Smith and David Ricardo, Britain embraced liberalism, encouraging free competition for all classes, and eliminating barriers to the development of a market economy.

1. The highlighted bold text is redundant.
2. The "Capitalism gained favor over mercantilism in Britain in the 1840s" is directly contradictory to the above three statements that capitalism gained in favor over mercantilism in Britain in the late 18th century. I have removed this. Singwaste (talk) 06:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not know who believes that capitalism gained favor over mercantilism in 1840, but this is not a contradiction, it is a lack of clarity. What we have here is either a distinction between capitalism as a system, which was well-established in the late 1700s, and capitalism as an ideology or philosophy, which may not have achieved dominance until the early 1800s. Or we may just have a difference of point of view. Marx certainly thinks capitalism was dominant by the late 1700s, I think Weber believes this as well. Maybe some others think it happened in 1840. The solution is not to delete one point of view, but to more clearly distinguish the two points of view. Other wise we violate NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:46, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will improve the article by suggesting authors along with the start of capitalism.Singwaste (talk) 17:18, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Your edits are great, but they are full of spelling errors and sometimes poorly written. I am fixing your typos. Singwaste (talk) 17:28, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Sory about that - and thanks! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Laissez-faire vs. Anarcho-capitalism?

There is no true distinction between laissez-faire and anarcho-capitalism. Both would like the market to be left alone by the state. A fairer distinction would be between the Chicago and Austrian schools, that is, between minarchism and anarcho-capitalism. Since this dispute is covered in its own article, it may be referenced and linked. Even neoconservatives pay lip service to minarchism. JLMadrigal (talk) 14:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

According to whom? Your source? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:04, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Look up laissez-faire in a source. By normal definition, it doesn't mean zero state involvement. It means minimal involvement. Many Heads (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

It is perfectly appropriate to ask an editor who has added, or proposes to add, content to provide a source. This is simple compliance with our WP:V and WP:NOR policies. I did not propose to introduce this new material, JLMadrigal did. SO I am asking for her source. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to address that to JLMadrigal. Many Heads (talk) 18:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

oh ... thank for explaining! Slrubenstein | Talk 19:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

None of the cited sources in the article claimed that a laissez-faire society requires a state. Since the word merely means "leave be", the burden of proof falls to those who wish to support such a claim. JLMadrigal (talk) 05:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Isn't that Ad Ignorantiam? I believe since it has historically been defined as two schools that you have to provide sources to the contrary Soxwon (talk) 15:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It is also like arguing that because "goose berries" has the word "goose" in it, the berries must therefore taste like geese and you need to provide a source to provide otherwise. Interpreting a translation of a term to mean anything violates WP:NOR. Any argument or interpretation requires a source. Period. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, laissez-faire is a philosophy that implies that people and businesses should be left alone. Anarcho-capitalism falls into this category. JLMadrigal (talk) 02:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, according to whom? Who said this? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Laissez-faire" government in ancient Iceland

"Many Heads" has now reverted reference to preChristian Icelandic law, which lasted for a millenium, and was an instance of a government of chieftains that protected society and nothing else. How could that not be relevant? Isn't this the goal of "laissez-faire" as currently defined in the article? JLMadrigal (talk) 13:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The article never uses the term "Laissez-faire" and it is not talking about a capitalist economy; it is not relevant to this article, and the way you use it violates NOR. The article is not about ancient Iceland, by the way, but medieval Iceland. The article is primarily an argument about private enforcement of law, i.e. enforcement, not the policies enforced. So it definitely does not belong in this article. Does it belong in any Wikipedia article? I am not sure it is a reliable source - it is published by the university in which the author teachers, not a peer-reviewed publication. I question whether it is a reliable source and whether it is a significant view; the author teaches in a law school which at best means he has some expertise over the US legal system, and his degrees are all in physics. He seems to have no credentials or training in history or anthropology (which explain some fallacious statements he makes), the two disciplines that focus most on the study of non-modern states. Is his POV mainstream, minority, or fringe? What do real scholars of Icelandic history think of his work? What do real economic historians think? Legal anthropologists or sociologists? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Definition of capitalism

I'm sure that this has been done to death, but I have an objection to the first sentence of the intro.

Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than publicly or state-owned and controlled.[1]

It seems that this introduces a false dilemma. That is, the tendency (especially by capitalists) is to contrast capitalism as the only alternative to state control of capital, as if every economic and political philosophy exists on a continuum between totalitarian government and laissez-faire capitalism. Therefore everything after "rather" introduces complexity that is unnecessary to the definition. I propose that this sentence should be simplified:

Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled.[1]

--causa sui ^talk 19:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see the problem, there are shades of gray in between and they are acknowledged later on in the article. The last part of the statement helps clarify what 'private' is referring to. Soxwon (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

My problem is with the notion of "shades of gray between" because I deny the "between". We do not have a linear continuum between two poles, and the representation that we do introduces vagueness in a way that isn't helpful to the definition. If we want to clarify private, we can either wikilink private property or explain the concept in detail later. The most important point, though, is that I don't see support for this claim in the citation, which is unacceptable. --causa sui ^talk 21:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not see a problem with your proposal. That said, I thought the definition of capitalism is "a system where people are free from social constraint or law to sell their labor." Slrubenstein | Talk 20:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Easy way to solve that. Just add "or a mixture thereof." Scam-Wow (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that would be an acceptable compromise because it still assumes a one-variable division and still isn't supported by the citation. --causa sui ^talk 22:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It is supported by the citiation. If capitalism is privately controlled means of production, then the only alternative is publicly controlled. If it's a mixture of public and private control, then it's not private control, but a mixture. Mixed public/private control is not private control. These are the only alternatives to private control. Scam-Wow (talk) 22:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

If by "publicly controlled" you mean "state controlled" then autonomists, libertarian socialists, council communists, and anarcho-syndicalists (just to name a few) all disagree with you. These are a few short examples of alternate theories with their own ideas about how capital should be controlled and managed that fit neither private ownership nor state control. The black and white distinction between "public and private" as if capital must, by definition, be either in the hand of private property owners or state bureaucracy is manifestly false. --causa sui ^talk 23:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It says "publicly or state controlled." That's there exactly to encompass both state and libertarian socialism. I was using the term "publicly controlled" to mean both. Scam-Wow (talk) 23:50, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that public and state owned covers it all and really it's fine the way it is. The definition at the beginning gives the basic premise of capitalism and helps clarify by showing the alternative. From there we can go into any number of mixed economies, but they are always a mixture of the definition already given. Soxwon (talk) 00:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• It is not correct that they are always a mixture. Please read the articles I wikilinked. --causa sui ^talk 04:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so when do capitalism, public controlled, state controlled, or a combination of the two not apply, and is it relevant enough to warrant changing the definition? The only one that really doesn't seem to get covered is Libertarian Socialism, which by its very definition, couldn't fit and doesn't really warrant mentioning. We're talking about capitalism and trying to provide a distinction. Soxwon (talk) 05:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• All the others are also examples of non-state and non-private ownership of capital. We do not get to make editorial judgments about which ones "warrant mentioning". The citation does not support the claim being made. --causa sui ^talk 19:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

"Public ownership" does not necessarily mean state control. It means owned by the public in common. That's libertarian socialism. Either resources are owned privately, or by all of society either directly or through the state. There are no other alternatives. Would you rather it say "common ownership"? Either way, the sentence would mean the same thing. I changed "publicly" to "commonly-owned by society." Does this communicate better? Scam-Wow (talk) 19:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think common ownership is the same thing, I think public is better. Soxwon (talk) 04:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

After looking over some sources I see you're right that some don't use the two terms synonymously. So we can just add "common" as an alternative. Scam-Wow (talk) 22:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

That works, looks good. Soxwon (talk) 22:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Add Neoliberalism Link

I added a neoliberalism section in the history of capitalism because it is an important movement. I also posted this on [33] and [34] but they didn't reply.

I would like to point out that 71.175.40.210 did not add a section, but changed the name of a section without adding or changing any other content. My reply can be found herefor anyone who is interested. Dougofborg (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Laissez-faire

Alright, my link:[35] shows laissez-faire to allow for total freedom of business and the gov't interfering only in the areas of basic liberties and property. That's a bit more general than just supply and demand. Soxwon (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of what anything says, it does not seem appropriate to replace a scholarly reference with a dictionary definition. Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The statement you put in the article is "is a policy of governmental non-interference in economic affairs and the competitive process beyond minimal protection of liberties and property rights." That's absolutely backwards, and it's not what your source says. Laissez-faire is a policy of MAXIMUM protection of liberty and property rights through the minimization of regulation of people and property. My source, says ""Laissez-faire is both an economic doctrine and the policies which actually enforce it. The basic principle is that the welfare of both the community and individuals is best served when markets for goods, capital, land, labour, and so on are left to the free play of supply and demand, and when the state interferes as little as possible, in both the economic and social sphere." François, Crouzet. The Victorian Economy. Routledge, 1982. p. 105 Scam-Wow (talk) 16:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It isn't "backwords," according to the Merriam-Webster's dictionary, which I think is a reliable source Soxwon (talk) 20:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster doesn't say that property is minimally protected. Maybe you need to read it closer. In laissez-faire property is protected to the maximum, not the minimum, because it means the government is not controlling how you use your property. Less regulation of private property equates to more private property rights. Minimal protection of private property equates to more transgressions against private property. Scam-Wow (talk) 21:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Even a capitalist state nominally minimizes interference in the market. Many such small-government states have existed. What has arguably not existed is anarcho-capitalism, in which the unmolested market itself serves as the governor - without help or hindrance from the state (subsidies, blackened markets, and immunities). When Austrian economists and other proponents of pure capitalism refer to it as an unknown ideal, they distance themselves from the minarchists (state capitalists). The article needs to make the distinction between state capitalism and pure capitalism. Any so-called "distinction" between small government and "minimal" government is meaningless. Let them be. JLMadrigal (talk) 03:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Most Austrian economists are minarchists. Ayn Rand refered to capitalism as an "unknown ideal" and she was a minarchist. When most sources are referring to "pure capitalism" they're not referring to anarcho-capitalism but laissez-faire. The "unknown ideal" most have in mind is not anarcho-capitalism. Scam-Wow (talk) 04:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Dictionaries are good sources for spellings and etymologies, and pronunciation. They are not very good sources on meaning, because they favor the colloquial. But encyclopedias are supposed to be compendia of knowledge, and we should privilege scholarly research. Dictionaries are of little use to us. Besides, aren't these dictionaries on-line? That being the case we can ignore them - anyone who can access Wikipedia can also access an on-line dictionary to confirm the spelling etc. We should be making available on-line scholarship that is not already available on-line, right? I mean, isn't this common sense? Now, my understanding is that laissez faire is not a type of capitalism but a policy concerning tariffs and the regulation of international trade popular in some capitalist societies. If we are talking about no government interference internally, I think most people call that policy "market fundamentalism." These are two different kinds of policies addressing different issues (even if they draw water from the same well). Also, we need to distinguish between policies versus forms of capitalism. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

"Market fundamentalism" is not an actual position, any more than "Christian fanaticism", "God-hating atheism", "bleeding-heart liberalism", or "eat-the-poor conservatism" are actual positions. Rather, these are slurs that someone uses to insult someone else's position. Nobody describes themselves as a "market fundamentalist". --FOo (talk) 16:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Adding links

I'm adding the following important links which explain why most Americans never heard the words Socialism, Communism or Capitalism so they could decide for themselves which they would prefer. They are: Red scare and McCarthyism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stars4change (talk • contribs) 06:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The Communism page is on lockdown, can the Capitalism page be on lockdown too?

I was just reading a section on globalization in the Capitalism article and was wondering if the Capitalism article can be on lockdown like the Communism article. This is because the tone of the globalization section of the article appears to have communist biases and in addition the definition at the beginning is a wealth-centric definition versus being focused on the fact that capitalism is a system of free enterprise and entrepreneurship that is focused on risk taking, here's Merriam-Webster's definition of capitalism that is free to peruse (read carefully) at their web site www.m-w.com at the link http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Capitalism. I'll have to find more evidence later when I have more time to make further arguments of why the Capitalism page should be on lockdown. Finally, an encyclopedia article should be as objective as possible, but for the sake of the Capitalism article more should be explained as to why most nations of the world have adopted Capitalism or a Capitalist Mixed Economy in the 21st century versus an economy that is foundationally Socialist or Communist. Please add further to this discussion.65.110.146.154 (talk) 03:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood the purpose of page protection. It exists to prevent vandalism and edit warring, not...um--what exactly do you suppose it would accomplish here? Of course you're welcome to discuss potential problems/changes here or to edit the article yourself--be bold if you think you can improve the article--but I don't see what page protection would do at this point. Cosmic Latte (talk) 04:02, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Capitalism logo

The comment have been moved to the Capitalism template discussion, since the capitalism logo is actually on the capitalism template and not this page. Go argue there: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Template_talk:Capitalism#Capitalism_logo. Nubeli (talk) 05:36, 13 January 2010 (UTC)