Talk:Camilla Hall

Untitled

For the June 2005 deletion debate on this article, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Camilla Hall (2nd nomination).

Primary sources of unknown reliability

This article is much more interesting to read after recent additions, but many statements are referenced to some file in the archives of a college, "O'Brien, Susan. Research Files on Camilla Hall, 1967-1976. CAMC Collection 30. Gustavus Adolphus Archives, St. Peter, Minnesota. http://gustavus.edu/academics/library/archives/CAMC0030.php. In particular, my concern is with "Biographical Notes from Hall Family. Papers Concerning Camilla Hall and George F. and Lorena Hall, 1938-1995." This sounds like a primary source, and Wikipedia looks for reliable secondary sources. Does that archive have some fact checking process, so we can be assured that the statements are correct? O'Brien is stated to be a high school friend of Hall. Text in this article should be cited in every case to a particular document in that archive, some of which are apparently press clippings, thus probably considered reliable sources, and others seem to be original letters from Hall or other family statements, which might not be considered primary sources and less appropriate as references in Wikipedia. If it came from reliable secondary sources they should be identified, such as a news clipping. If it is primary source, such as O'Brien's personal knowledge, or a reminiscence by George of Lorena Hall, or a letter from Camilla to them, that should be made clear. Wikipedia is not generally an appropriate place for the first publication of such primary sources. A book or magazine article would be a better venue. Some of the recent additions may not satisfy the need for verifiability or reliaable sources, even though added in good faith to improve the article. Edison (talk) 22:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140512215046/https://gustavus.edu/library/archives/college/manuscripts/CAMC0030.php to https://gustavus.edu/library/archives/college/manuscripts/CAMC0030.php

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Violation of WP:BIO1E

Camilla Hall's notability comes only with her connection with the Symbionese Liberation Army and the LA shootout. Her significance in the organization and this event is not substantiated and is likely minimal. Urging deletion under WP:BIO1E.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kphawkins (talk • contribs)

The article was recently tagged questioning Hall's notability. The applicable guideline is WP:BIO. When someone is an important part of a major event, the fact they are notable only in connection with the event does not preclude an article, given that they have the necessary coverage. The requirement is for multiple reliable and independent sources with significant coverage. For one, see "Amerian Heiress" by Jeffrey Toobin which give bio on her on pages 100-102. Detailed description of her pro-SLA action are given elsewhere in the book, such as pages 140 and 208. She has been the subject of two academic theses, and an article in the St Peter (Minn) Herald "St. Peter woman who helped kidnap Patty Hearst focus of MSU professor's new book" by Nancy Madsen, 25 April 2016, discussed Hall and the writings of academics about her. The article is thus a reliable secondary source. Two sources is "multiple" sources, in addition to several perhaps less "reliable" theses and ebooks. I am removing the notability tag. Feel free to take the article to AFD. Edison (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:BIO1E says: "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." and "John Hinckley, Jr., for example, has a separate article because the single event he was associated with, the Reagan assassination attempt, was significant and his role was both substantial and well documented." The Hearst abduction and the SLA activities such as murder, bank robbery, and a widely televised shootout with the police and apocalyptic burning of their hideout were a series of significant events, in which she had a major role. Her life prior to joining the SLA is documented in reliable sources.It goes beyond "she was present when the event happened" which is the case in many instances where WP:BIO1E has been applied The coverage has persisted, as in the 2016 newspaper article cited above. Edison (talk) 20:22, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps WP:CRIME is the more relevant guideline for this: "A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person." It is clear that Hall is not notable outside her relationship with the SLA. The article as written does not distinguish her involvement in the SLA any further than the fact that she was a member of the group, that she participated in the group's terrorist acts, and that she died in a shootout. Hall's participation in the SLA organization and the relevant events in the LA shootout are documented in the SLA page. Thus, this article does nothing but provide a gratuitous biography of an insignificant organization member.

References 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 all originate from one author's work, so the coverage of this individual seems broader than it actually is. The article you reference from the Herald is an expose on that same MSU author. Her Masters thesis is arguably a work of argumentative opinion itself, stating in the abstract that "the study comes to the conclusion that Hall brought important radical ideas to the SLA and had a rightful place within the organization". I raise this point because the level of detail this article has for hall is approaching a "biographical dictionary" prohibited by 17 on WP:NOT. I suspect the reason for the level of detail in this article is to confirm that author's thesis--that Hall was an important character in this saga. Kphawkins (talk) 22:17, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Obtain and read the Jeffrey Toobin book, which notes her significant role in the SLA. And your claim that the Herald article is an "expose" is ludicrous and contrafactual. Again, AFD is thataway It is not up to the two of us to decide whether it should be kept, deleted, or merged. I am not entirely averse to merger. Someone put a lot of detail in the article which comes from Hall family papers, not really a reliable and independent source, although Rev and Mrs Hall were remarkable people. And the SLA saga is not "one event." There was the assassination of School Superintendent Foster, media campaigns, the kidnapping of Patty Hearst, the bank robbery, the rioting during distribution of the food "ransom," and the shootout/immolation. She was part of a failed revolution, and was an early and significant participant. Edison (talk) 00:30, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

"Native"

(Sorry if I'm using the Talk page incorrectly here, it's not something I've used often.)

The word "native" to refer to coloured people in colonies is, I think universally a racist usage; I'm familiar with it from the Victorian books I read in childhood, and it tended to be accompanied by terms such as "fuzzy-wuzzies" and the like. Perhaps this is no longer so; in that case a good test would be to refer to English people as "the natives" in a discussion with Nigel Farage and see what response you get.

It's a word one should be very cautious indeed in including in a statement about a European person's relationship with Africans.

Google's Ngram Viewer shows a steady decline in the use of the term from 1800, possibly because of this unpleasant connotation. Pageturners (talk) 07:58, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

2022 comment

How is it that nowhere in this article is the word "terror" used, nor is this woman correctly identified as a "terrorist"? It reads like it was written by one of her parents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:642:C401:72D0:10E5:D11F:34F3:3400 (talk) 21:39, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Camilla Hall with her art.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:06, 10 November 2022 (UTC)