Talk:Caleb

Origin of name

The article used to contain the following text:

Update on meaning of the name. It previously stated "The Jewish Encyclopedia states that Caleb's name means "dog" from the Hebrew kelev" with a link to the Jewish Encyclopedia. Unfortunately the encyclopedia does NOT say that it means dog, instead it references the clan "Calebites" who used a dog a symbol while it is thought that "Caleb" signifies dog. This is a common misconception about the name. It comes from a combination of the fact that the name relates to dog in hebrew, and because there is a similar word in Arabic (Kalibun) meaning "rabid." Instead the comment below is closer to the meaning. It does not literally mean "heart" but instead refers to one who "speaks from the heart" - as in an honest person. This coincides directly from the story of Caleb who stood up to the other returning spies and told the truth about the riches of Palestine. Therefore, although I agree that the biblical names do not link people to body organs (see comment below), this is not the case here because the word "heart" merely refers to one who "speaks from the heart" i.e. honest.

Caleb's name is spelled with the same consonants as Hebrew: כֶּ֫לֶב kéleḇ meaning "dog", prompting the common conclusion that the name Caleb means "dog". However, this is not clear. 1 Samuel 25:3 states that Nabal, the husband of Abigail before David, was of the house of Caleb. In Hebrew, the word used for this reference is Hebrew: כָּלִבִּי Kālibbî, and the presence of the -î suffix exposes the double consonant indicating two Hebrew: ב radicals whores fused together. The Hebrew word Hebrew: לֵב lēḇ, meaning "heart", has the same stem form Hebrew: לִבּ libb-. If Hebrew: כָּ kā- is to be understood as the preposition kə- meaning "as; like", and the vowel as the pretone syllable promoted to ā, then the name Hebrew: כָּלֵב Kālēḇ could also be understood to mean "as the heart". Indeed, a more flowery form of the word for "heart" is Hebrew: לֵבָב lēḇāḇ, where the two Hebrew: ב radicals are not fused but separated by a vowel. Biblical text uses the flowery expression Hebrew: כְּלֵבָב kəlēḇāḇ "as the heart" and Hebrew: כִּלְבַב kilḇaḇ "as the heart of", and there is also the modern expression Hebrew: כִּלְבָבִי k'l'vavi "after my own heart".

This is unsourced and (imho) implausible. No names linking people to body organs in this fashion are recorded in the Bible (of course Jacob has a "heel" allusion, but the initial kaf in Caleb is unheard of elsewhere). So I removed and added a sourced, more prosaic and more plausible explanation.

Please find sources before restoring. elpincha (talk) 07:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Addition as of 6 Jan 2009: Even if this were correct, please note that this constitutes original research, which is not approved here. Please find sources before re-attempting. elpincha (talk) 17:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, the Jewish Encyclopedia states in plain English "Caleb signifies dog". Your attempts to argue that it is saying something else are bordering on bizarre. You have yet to come up with any alternate sourced derivation. Please stop removing this relevant cited information. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Can't speak for Hebrew, but in Arabic "kelb" (or "kalb" - the vowel is unimportant) means dog, and the word for heart is "qalb", with the letter q standing in for a qof (sound not present in English).In other words, no relation between them. Also, Caleb meaning heart makes no sense in an Iron Age context, as the heart wasn't associated with emotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.23.134.167 (talk) 11:10, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Caleb actually lived in the Bronze Age period, not Iron Age. Also, the statement that the heart was not associated with emotion couldn't be further from the truth. Throughout the Hebrew Bible the heart is indeed linked to emotion and feelings: "it grieved him to his heart." (Gen 6:6), "he will be glad in his heart." (Ex. 4:14), "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart" (Deut. 6:5), "when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry" (Ruth 3:7), "why do you not eat and why is your heart sad?" (1Sam. 1:8), "he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly.", (1Sam. 28:5) and I could give dozens, maybe hundreds of similar examples. - Lindert (talk) 12:17, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

An observation of the references to heart (leb & lebab) should convince the reader that the Hebrew word for heart does not mean specifically a center of emotions. The word is broader in meaning than that, including what we call conscience. I take it to mean the center of a man's being, the inner self, including the mental & the emotional. As to Caleb meaning dog, no doubt one could post easily 10 secondary sources that say that -- not that they are correct, of course. Going into how other names are generated & alleging that none of them is keyed to a body part is irrelevant. And it would be more relevant to rule out or affirm psychomorphical names, names employing nephesh, ruach, etc. How about Benoni, son of my sorrow? If you could have son of my sorrow, could you have "son of my heart"? But the motivations of millions of parents in naming children cannot be determined that way. For 1000's of years, parents have decided to stick a moniker on the kid; they don't do semitic language research first (as a rule). What Caleb's naming parent meant with the sound represented by 3 Hebrew characters (no vowels) is unlikely to have proof, absent a story like Nabal. I am grateful to the above hypothesis that KLB may be employing the Hebrew preposition K-. But we also can't rule out that the naming parent merely liked the sound of the word or had a friend or relative of the same name. (See John the Baptist's naming.) I named my son Jeremiah partly in honor of 2 friends I had named "Jerry" as a nickname, though their legal name was not Jeremiah. (EnochBethany (talk) 18:25, 24 January 2015 (UTC))

Split?

IMO, this should be divided into at least two or maybe three articles: one for the name itself, a second for the biblical Calebs, with the Caleb of the Quran either appended to the latter or in a third article. Opinions?

Agree. There's too much that can be added to the individuals to fit in a combined article as it currently stands. — al-Shimoni (talk) 21:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree. This article, which should firstly be about the name, instead deals exhaustively with Judaic lore. Unacceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niffe (talk • contribs) 05:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. The article is rather short as it is. But it might be renamed: Caleb in the Bible. This is not "Judaic lore," as it is not about a Caleb in the Talmud nor in any distinctive Jewish work (in the modern sense of "Jewish"). Those familiar with the Old Testament / Tanach will be aware that "Jew" and "Jewish" is not a significant category in the Tanach at least until about the time of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther. It is about a Bible character. Since Judaism as we know it today is not the religion of the Tanach, but of the Talmud (so far as it is "orthodox") and of Jewish culture developed over thousands of years, IMHO this treatise on Caleb does not come under "judasim." Now if Caleb does have some significant role in the Talmud and in Jewish culture, that should be elucidated -- or conversely, if Caleb has been neglected in Jewish culture, that also might be mentioned. (EnochBethany (talk) 21:52, 24 January 2015 (UTC))

I Chronicles 2 18

At one point this verse is used to identify Caleb' wife (actually, the next verses identify a second wife), but later in the text this Caleb is assumed, by virtue of being the son of Hezron, not to be the Caleb from the book of Joshua. Some consistency, please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.32.136 (talk) 09:29, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

People in the Bible, People in the Torah, People in the Quran

At the bottom of the page there is currently a navigational box at the bottom entitled "People in the Quran". I think that this article could use similar boxes for People of the Bible and People of the Torah. I recognize that many of these people overlap; however, there is, I believe, sufficient dissimilarity to warrant three such navigational boxes.Belac Athanasius (talk) 03:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

There are two problems with your proposal, I think. First, there are far too many people in the Torah and the Bible to fit into a box under the article. Second, the Torah is included in the Bible, so all people from the Torah are also in the Bible. - Lindert (talk) 10:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

How about a box to "People in the Talmud"? (EnochBethany (talk) 21:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC))

The Kennizite Lowpothesis

Article says: "Perhaps the name Kenizzite in his case derives from some ancestral Judean family head named Kenaz, even as Caleb’s brother was so named (Joshua 15:17; Judges 1:13; 1 Chronicles 4:13)." Could the writer clarify what he means? Are you saying that Othniel was named for some ancestral Othniel? Are you saying that if Caleb is a Kenizzite, the Kenaz from whom he came could be a different Kenaz for any other Kenaz in the Bible? (EnochBethany (talk) 18:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC))

"Uncertain Derivation"

<<According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "since 'Caleb' signifies dog, it has been thought that the dog was the totem of [Caleb's] clan".[1] The New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance states that keleb is of "uncertain derivation".[2]>>

That's what the article says right now. It could be deceptive to anyone who doesn't read Hebrew. What it looks like those two sentences are saying is that the Jewish Encyclopedia identifies "Caleb" as meaning "dog," but that the NAS Concordance does not know the meaning of Caleb.

But here's what actually going on. Under it's entry for the Hebrew kaleb, the NAS Concordance says that kaleb (the name Caleb) is related to keleb, meaning dog. Then, under its entry for keleb it says the derivation is uncertain. So the NAS does have a position on the origin of the name Caleb, it just doesn't have a position on where the word keleb comes from in the first place.

Just like it's my position that Phife Dawg's stage name was from the word for "dog", but I have no information on where the word "dog" itself comes from. Me and the NAS Concordance are in the same boat here.Alephb (talk) 00:42, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Koran: unrelated & unsourced material

Quranic reference: unsourced, no visible connection to Caleb in given quotes. Made up? The theory of some specific theologian or school? First & foremost: is there a Caleb figure in Islamic tradition? What is his name in Arabic?

Unacceptable as part of the article as it is now. Moved the material over here for possible reuse if a sourced comment can be found that convincingly supports a connection of the verses to Caleb in Islamic thought.

;Quranic reference to Joshua and his men It is considered that Caleb is alluded to in the 5th [[Sura]]h of the [[Quran]] (5:20-26). The two men alluded to here are Caleb and Joshua:{{cn|date=August 2022}} <blockquote>{{verse|chapter=5|verse=20}} <section begin="5:20"/>And when Moses said to his people: O my people, remember the favour of [[Allah]] to you when He raised [[prophet]]s among you and made you kings and gave you what He gave not to any other of the nations. <section end="5:20"/>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} {{verse|chapter=5|verse=21}} <section begin="5:21"/>O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has ordained for you and turn not your backs, for then you will turn back losers. <section end="5:21"/>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} {{verse|chapter=5|verse=22}} <section begin="5:22"/>They said: O Moses, therein are a powerful people, and we shall not enter it until they go out from it; if they go out from it, then surely we will enter. <section end="5:22"/>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} {{verse|chapter=5|verse=23}} <section begin="5:23"/>Two men of those who feared, on whom Allah had bestowed a favour, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you enter it you will surely be victorious; and put your trust in Allah, if you are believers. <section end="5:23"/>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} {{verse|chapter=5|verse=24}} <section begin="5:24"/>They said: O Moses, we will never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore thou and thy Lord, and fight; surely here we sit. <section end="5:24"/>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} {{verse|chapter=5|verse=25}} <section begin="5:25"/>He said: My Lord, I have control of none but my own self and my brother; so distinguish between us and the transgressing people. <section end="5:25"/>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} {{verse|chapter=5|verse=26}} <section begin="5:26"/>He said: It will surely be forbidden to them for forty years -- they will wander about in the land. So grieve not for the transgressing people.<section end="5:26"/><ref>Maulana Muhammad Ali, ''[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an_(Maulana_Muhammad_Ali)/5._The_Food The Holy Qur'an]'' (1917).</ref> </blockquote>{{dubious|No obvious connection to Caleb. Unsourced.|date=August 2022}} Arminden (talk) 10:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The three "tombs" in Kifl Haris: fishy

I have started a discussion here. Arminden (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Quran refers to Caleb as below:

قَالَ رَجُلَانِ مِنَ الَّذِينَ يَخَافُونَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمَا ادْخُلُوا عَلَيْهِمُ الْبَابَ فَإِذَا دَخَلْتُمُوهُ فَإِنَّكُمْ غَالِبُونَ ۚ وَعَلَى اللَّهِ فَتَوَكَّلُوا إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ 5 : 23 (Thereupon) two men (- Joshua and Caleb) from among those who feared (their Lord) and on whom Allâh had bestowed His blessings said, ‘Enter the gate (of the city advancing) against them, for when once you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and in Allâh you should put your trust when you are believers (in Him).’ 2601:642:4301:6AD0:9DD0:4B30:4A7B:9AA3 (talk) 14:23, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Please see above, at "Koran: unrelated & unsourced material": you have added the name between brackets, it's not in the Surah, and have offered no source. Arminden (talk) 04:56, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Vandalism

Can't anyone block this infantile idiot? If he were at least funny, but no such hope. No IQ patrol around? Arminden (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done StAnselm (talk) 20:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Unexplained substantial removals of material

Hi @Emolu:. I see no reason to accept your massive interventions for which you didn't offer any explanation, not here and not even as an edit summary. Unsourced material might well be correct and valuable (useful to the reader), as seems to be the case here. I can easily imagine that it's for instance based on the Hebrew (heWiki) article, translated but without the sources, or in the case of the lead, re-edited many times, with some sources lost in the process, but in no way wrong or invalid. Please see this work here as an imperfect, but useful team effort, where eliminating large amounts of info with no explanation is not acceptable. Btw, if your problem is with unsourced material: your edit in the lead was totally unsourced as well. So you see...

Here is to a future good cooperation! Cheers, Arminden (talk) 03:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)