Talk:Caer Dathyl

Proposed merge of Caer Dathyl (Prydain) with Caer Dathyl

While Caer Dathyl appears to be intended as an article about the real-world location and Caer Dathyl (Prydain) is an article about the mythical/fictional location, all sources that I was able to find deal primarily with the fictional location, at most positing that a real castle may exist but has not been identified. If significant coverage of the real-world castle itself isn't available, these articles should be merged, with due emphasis placed on the fictional account, and likely a small section about attempts to identify Caer Dathyl with existing castles. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are some sources that could be helpful in expanding Caer Dathyl, whether in themselves, or in pointing to more authoritative sources: Religion in Britain from the Megaliths to Arthur: An Archaeological and Mythological Exploration by Robin Melrose, pages 234 - 235 and The Official Nantlle Valley Website > The Mabinogi > Places mentioned in the Fourth Branch. I believe the W.J. Griffiths referred to in the Nantlle blog post is also known as William John Gruffyd. I can work on this this month, see how much length that adds. Merenby (talk) 16:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Merenby, what's your opinion on the merge itself though? Google unfortunately doesn't want to show me the relevant pages of the first source you cited, but looking at the second source it seems to still be focusing on Caer Dathyl as a location primarily significant for its role in fiction. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Rosguill, I'm uncertain about a merge, but not opposed to it. I think there are reasonable justifications both for keeping the articles separate and for merging them. I thought about what other articles deal with a similar situation (i.e., a primary fictional text citing a location that could theoretically have a basis in reality, plus later fictional texts based on the first) and came up with Atlantis and Camelot. I think the Atlantis article may be the most helpful to look at for this purpose. The first source I shared above, the one by Robin Melrose that you can't see, also focuses on Caer Dathyl as a location that is significant because of its role in fiction. I also found this Caer Dathyl article from Wicipedia Cymraeg. Merenby (talk) 17:47, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that Atlantis and Camelot provide a good idea of the presentation that I think would be ideal. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:04, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Rosguill, So is anyone here up to merging this? Really, it's just one sentence, it shouldn't be that hard? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, I guess it wasn't really clear to me that there was consensus to merge at the time that this fell off my radar. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:09, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Rosguill, I see. As the articles are still pretty much unreferenced and have major issues with WP:GNG, do you think we can just boldly redirect both to Math fab Mathonwy, or would you think a full WP:AFD discussion would be warranted instead? I'll also ping User:Merenby. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, while I wouldn't personally stand in the way of such a redirect, it seems feasible that sources exist for establishing the notability of Caer Dathyl, although it doesn't look like there's enough coverage to justify separate articles for the real and mythical versions of the castle. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:40, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Rosguill, Have you found such sources? What I see are mentions in passing that are pretty much plot summaries. Nothing like literary analysis, or archeological findings, or even cultural reception. But if I missed something, please link it. (Anyway, redirect > deletion, the entry or entries can always be restored once sources are found). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:51, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, I haven't exactly found anything yet. Searching on Google Scholar, I see a fair number of results but haven't actually taken the time to figure out how many of those hits are significant. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 04:15, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Rosguill, Take your time. In my search, I didn't see anything that's not a passing mention, but the more eyes the better. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, having given this another look, I haven't found any non-trivial mentions, although there were a fair amount of paywalled sources that I couldn't examine. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:20, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Rosguill, I can access some academic articles, so if anything looked very promising I could take a look if you give me a link. Otherwise, we are good for a redirecting, with no prejudice to the restoration of the article(s) if someone finds good sources in the future, right? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:12, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, yeah, I think that redirecting is appropriate at this time. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 05:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey, Piotrus & Rosguill, the page this and the Prydain page redirects to does not mention Caer Dathyl anywhere. The redirect is destructive if the target does not contain the same information. I haven't been a part of these conversations, but this is a prime example of one of the most frustrating things about this site; lossy redirects. Magnymbus (talk) 05:47, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Magnymbus The problem was next to nothing was mergeable (unreferenced or nearly so). I've added a mention of this to Four Branches of the Mabinogi based on refernece that was present in that article, while Caer Dathyl (Prydain) now redirects to The Chronicles of Prydain which mentions it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:35, 18 November 2023 (UTC)