Talk:Byington Ford

notability

I'm a bit confused by what makes this man notable. His development of the Carmel Valley or his film job? I'm not questioning his notability (at least, not yet), but the article doesn't seem to go into detail on why we have an article on him. Griffinofwales (talk) Simple English Wikipedia - Come and join! 13:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

notability answer

Byington Ford was a major force in developing Pebble Beach, Carmel Woods, and the Carmel Valley Village and airfield. He created the Carmel Realty Company. He was a baseball player and coach in the Carmel Abalone League and acted in and directed over 45 plays in Carmel. He was a major part of the social circle in the Monterey Peninsula. His ancestry dates back to the French Huguenots. Greg Henderson 17:31, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ford cartoon.tif

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Request Edit B

• Information to be added or removed: I would like to remove the tags: Multiple issues: COI and Notability
• Explanation of issue: Editor has citation for notability (see below). COI has already been listed on Talk:Byington Ford page and on user page.
• References supporting change: Add the following citation and text in lead paragraph:

Ford developed the first airpark of its kind in the United States. --Greg Henderson (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Added the requested phrase and reference. But I am not certain that the lack of notability warrants keeping the template for more debate. Ferkijel (talk) 22:04, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Tirey Lafayette Ford

"Tirey Lafayette Ford", Published on Dec 13, 2018, by Greg Henderson:

This is a story about Tirey Lafayette Ford, and his rise from a schoolboy in Missouri to coming to California and getting his law degree, becoming District Attorney, California State Senator, and then Attorney General. Since Tirey accomplished so many things in his lifetime, I felt it was important to write them down as part of our family history. His son, Byington Ford was my grandfather. We corresponded through letters in the later years of his life. Byington was also a remarkable man who served in two world wars, helped develop Pebble Beach, the Carmel Valley airport, and the Carmel Valley Village in California.

• looks similar to User:Greghenderson2006

.... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 09:20, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@0mtwb9gd5wx: Yes, they are similar. I am the author of both. I also have a book on Amazon dealing with the same subjects. There is a Wikipedia disclaimer on the issuu.com and Amazon books, e.g. The text of this page is available for modification and reuse under the terms of the: Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License and the GNU Free Documentation License (unversioned, with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts). Let me know if this helps to answer your question? --Greg Henderson (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done PK650 (talk) 04:09, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Request Edit C

• Information to be added or removed: I would like to add an image of the Animated Film Corporation under the section Animated Film Corporation.
• Explanation of issue: An image is already in Wiki Commons and can be used here.
• References supporting change: Add the following citation:

  

  Animated Film Corporation, ca. 1916.

--Greg Henderson (talk) 13:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Comment: COI/U added it into the article as a "minor edit" on his own despite advise against making direct edits into articles on which he has a COI in numerous prior discussions, so I removed it. @Melcous and Possibly: Graywalls (talk) 21:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

If you look at the article history, the image was added by 0mtwb9gd5wx as an external image. I simply replaced the image with the same image already in Wikimeida Commons, which is why it was a minor edit. Graywalls removed the image claiming COI, which is the reason for this Request Edit, to put the image back in. --Greg Henderson (talk) 22:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Request Edit D

• Information to be added or removed: Please remove the tags: Multiple issues: COI and Notability
• Explanation of issue: Editor has citation for notability (see above). COI has already been listed on Talk:Byington Ford page and on Greg's user page.
• References supporting change: Byington Ford was a major force in developing Pebble Beach, Carmel Woods, and the Carmel Valley Village and airfield. He was an early founder of the Carmel Realty Company. He was a baseball player and coach in the Carmel Abalone League and acted in and directed over 45 plays in Carmel. See main article for citations. Below are a select view.

References

@Greg Henderson  Done Cheers. Duke Gilmore (talk) 16:06, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Request Edit E

• Could you consider removing the Notability tag? Per WP:SIRS, it's been quite a few years since it was added. The citations provided below offer substantial and in-depth coverage directly related to the article's subject. They're independent of the subject and meet the reliability standard for sourcing. These citations cater to regional audiences, specifically those in Monterey County, California. Here's a list of secondary sources for Byington Ford:

1. Monterey County: The Dramatic Story of its Past
2. The fabulous career Byington Ford
3. Images of America Carmel Valley
4. A Tribute to Yesterday: The History of Carmel, Carmel Valley, Big Sur, Point Lobos, Carmelite Monastery, and Los Burros
5. Bernard Maybeck: artisan, architect, artist
6. Monterey Peninsula's sporting heritage
7. Life and Times of Jo Mora Iconic Artist of the American West by By Peter Hiller

Greg Henderson (talk) 23:24, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

No, it hasn't been "quite a few years". It was just re-added by Melcous and you should try to work with them. Graywalls (talk) 23:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Also, a coverage like another example of mora modeling his sculpture after living people is the series of bronze figures he made of the three daughters of "Bying and Mairon Ford of Pebble Beach is of no addition to notability than a sculpture of pineapple of aisle 3 from Albertson's of hickville, nowhere adds to notability of that particular pineapple. Graywalls (talk) 23:54, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'll remove that one. Greg Henderson (talk) 00:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

You're missing the bigger picture. You trying to argue the notability of your grandfather is actually a conflict-of-interest. Graywalls (talk) 01:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If these are to be considered, the list of "secondary sources" ought to have isbn's or oclc's attached to them. Many of the links are archival urls. They should also be formatted using {{cite book}} without the ref tag, that way the |isbn= parameter can be easily included (and the template easily filled out - although not always with older isbn's, but that's another topic for another forum. Stick to the Worldcat URL to easily populate the template's parameters). Regards,  Spintendo  03:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: You are right. I've updated the the citations with proper URLs, ISBNs, etc. Greg Henderson (talk) 05:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

References

Actually I meant something like this:

Bibliography / References (depending on its use in the article)

• Barratt, Elizabeth (2010). Images of America Carmel Valley. Charleston, S.C.: Arcadia Publishing. p. 107. ISBN 9780738571621. OCLC 712588705.
• Cardwell, Kenneth H. (1983). Bernard Maybeck: artisan, architect, artist. Salt Lake City: Gibbs M. Smith, Inc. p. 183. ISBN 9780879051488. OCLC 9927889.
• Fink, Augusta (2000). Monterey County: The Dramatic Story of its Past. Valley Publishers. p. 202. ISBN 9780913548622. OCLC 5771731.
• Frost, John W. (2007). Monterey Peninsula's sporting heritage. Charleston, S.C.: Arcadia Pub. p. 15. ISBN 9780738555898. OCLC 166367432.
• Hale, Sharron Lee (1980). A Tribute to Yesterday: The History of Carmel, Carmel Valley, Big Sur, Point Lobos, Carmelite Monastery, and Los Burros. Santa Cruz: Valley Publishers. pp. 48, 59, 79, 112, 185. ISBN 9780913548738. OCLC 7244103.

Not knowing what any of these books are for, or why they're being listed here, I figure a "catchall" section like Biblio would probably work best (for me to use in my example above — what you're wanting to use it for though might need another title like References, I can't say for sure.).  Spintendo  06:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I added OCLC's to this list. I like OCLC's because they tell you more about a publication than mere ISBN's do. Specifically, with the oclc's link, you can see which libraries around the world use the source, which is oftentimes salient information that can guide people on how to judge a publication. And by libraries, I mean academic libraries as opposed to public libraries, which can and do stock really anything. FWIW, in my opinion the 2 strongest from the list are the ones published by Arcadia, which is a worldwide house that specializes in local histories. Local historians have a lot going for them, they usually live in the areas they write about, they work in colleges in the area so they have access to resources that the colleges have access to, and thus their knowledge is vastly more genuine than those historians like the author Tobin - he writes good history books (the one on Patty Hearst comes to mind) but he doesnt live in SF — he comes to town, writes the book, and leaves, and thus may miss out on details (and his writing is journalism-oriented rather than academic social studies-oriented — a world of difference.)  Spintendo  06:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hyper-local things are of course going to cover hyper local things in great depth. Club news letters' in depth coverage about club members, student paper's in-depth coverage about students serving on student government. Township rag sheets talking in depth about what little businesses the little town has to offer. It's not very probable the COI user's grandpa, great grandpa, and numerous family members just all happen to be Wiki notable. People whose basis of notability is confined to hyper-local sphere where everyone-knows-everyone where everyone writes about each other may not pass WP:ANYBIO. Pinging @Netherzone and Melcous: for comment. Graywalls (talk) 08:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, for your contributions, and to @Spintendo: for organizing the references. To address the Notability tag, we should assess if the secondary sources align with the WP:NP guidelines. These sources highlight Ford's achievements, such as establishing the Carmel Valley Airfield and developing the Carmel Valley Village. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

My thoughts on the matter: this article and associated articles, are part of the creator's original WP:Walled Garden on his extended family and is also part of a second walled garden on the town where he lives, Carmel/Carmel By-the-Sea/Carmel Valley, and that other editors should use caution when reviewing edit requests. Netherzone (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Graywalls: Of the sources I singled out as being the best here, Barratt and Frost, neither of those fit your definition of being hyper-local sphere where everyone-knows-everyone where everyone writes about each other, so this observation certainly shouldn't have come from anything I've said. Both of those publications discuss photographs and postcards relevant to the region, and thus, offer straight historiography about the area which is not-easily assailable. Both authors are California locals who are familiar with California-topics. Frost, who has a doctorate in History, is much more reliable when discussing historically-significant California photographs than an author whose interest and experience was in, for example New Jersey, might be. As I stated earlier, it was unknown to me what the purpose of this listing of publications was for ("Not knowing what any of these books are for, or why they're being listed here..."); I was merely commenting on the strength of the sources listed therein. And while I feel that your observation was misplaced, I do agree with your general sentiment along those lines, in that a dubious sort of reference material does exist in the publications-realm, and that those sources ought to be assiduously avoided.

Notes

Regards,  Spintendo  03:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Request Edit F

• Under Early Life, for the sentence: "Ford graduated from Santa Clara College in 1910 with a Bachelor of Arts degree.[citation needed]"
  • Please add the requested citation here:

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 23:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 Approved Regards,  Spintendo  03:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Primary sources

In response to a note added to my talk page, my main concern with the inclusion of this material, is that it may put undue emphasis on biographical aspects the article subject wishes to highlight about themselves if it hasn't been covered by independent sources. Of course, if a consensus can be gained for its inclusion, I'm willing to yield to that. Left guide (talk) 03:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

The material in question:

He went on to get his master's from the University of California at Berkeley, graduating in 1913, where he earned his Master of Arts degree. The thesis for his master's degree was A History of the County Court of England from 1066-1307.

Are you saying it's undue that he graduated from University? This is standard biographical factual information. We would find it in any article, typically in a section called "Education". The cited source verifies the information. Per WP:PRIMARY there is nothing wrong with that. It's published by a "reputable publisher" and therefore presumed accurate. -- GreenC 05:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

You have some fair points. Honestly, the description of his thesis is what seems excessive and undue. Maybe a workable compromise is to restore a simple straightforward version like this:

He continued his education at UC Berkeley, where he graduated with a Masters of Arts degree in 1913.

What do you think? Left guide (talk) 06:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

EDIT: copy-edited the passage for better integration with the existing text. Left guide (talk) 06:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - Works

• Add a section called "Works"
• Under this section add:
• A Cartoon Sketch Book for Beginners (1955)

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: needs independent secondary sources to show that this material is WP:DUE for inclusion. Left guide (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• It is just a publication he did. Here two more citations. I see no reason not to include it. Not all citatioins have to be secondary:

Greg Henderson (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Still not convinced, a catalog listing and online library entry do little to demonstrate that this material is WP:DUE. WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:NOTDATABASE are clearly applicable here. For example, if there's a newspaper article discussing this book directly and in-depth, that would go a long way in demonstrating dueness. Left guide (talk) 09:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - Notes

• Add under Notes, where it says "citation needed" the following citations:

Greg Henderson (talk) 00:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: the notes section is merely a transclusion of the note being invoked elsewhere in the article using the efn template, since it has the notelist template. Where exactly is the note being invoked in the article? I'm unable to find it. Left guide (talk) 00:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

References

@Left guide: It's in the infobox. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 01:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The sources show that he was a captain/commander and Lieutenant colonel but doesn't say that he was discharged/re-enlisted. Encoded   Talk 💬 22:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Encoded: for trying to complete this request. I've reopened it here to provide clarification.

• For the statement in infobox: "Discharged from command-rank of Captain and re-enlisted at rank of Lieutenant colonel."
• Change to:
  • "Ford was Captain during World War I and became Lieutenant colonel durinig World War II."

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 23:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Encoded   Talk 💬 14:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - American Legion Post No. 512

• Add the following text after the 2nd paragraph under the Post-war section:
• During August 1934, Byington Ford was a member of the executive committee of Carmel’s American Legion Post No. 512, actively involved as the post sought its provisional charter. On July 9, 1935, he was elected post commander.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 23:46, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done — Antrotherkus ^{Talk to me!} 20:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - infobox

@Graywalls: By removing the Notes section you caused a Cite error.

• Please add the following in the infobox.

* Add Notelist before the References section. "==Notes=="
"Notelist" with brackets {{}} This is done. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

This would cause "Discharged from command-rank of Captain and re-enlisted at rank of Lieutenant colonel." to be restored, which was noted "citation needed". Is it cited? Where did this statement come from? If uncited, it should be purged, not restored. Graywalls (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Please update the infobox with the following:

| serviceyears=1917–1919
1942–1945

| awards = Purple Heart

| rank = {{plainlist|

• Captain (armed forces) (1919)
• Major (1943)
• Lieutenant colonel (1945)

==Notes==

Greg Henderson (talk) 22:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done: I believe all points have been addressed to the extent the provided sources allow. 〜 Askarion ✉ 18:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Edit Request - Early life

• Under Early Life, add the following setence after "Ford graduated from Santa Clara College in 1910 with a Bachelor of Arts degree."
  • He went on to get his master's from the University of California at Berkeley, graduating in 1913, where he earned his Master of Arts degree.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 16:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 18:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)