Talk:Bunt sind schon die Wälder

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J. F. Reichardt

• ... that the melody for the song "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" (Colourful are the forests already) that Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured) created in 1799 has remained popular? Source: [1]
  • Reviewed: David Hilchen

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2124 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC).

• I shall review this. Storye book (talk) 10:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Thank you for this interesting article. I would like to hear this one. A few comments:

• Earwig finds only quotations and proper names. No problem there.
• The hook citation (above) for ALT0 was not in the article, so I added it there. I also gave the article a very minor copyedit. That does not affect this DYK review.
• One issue: The citation given above for ALT0 does not confirm popularity. Popularity is mentioned in the name of the website, but not in the main text of the website. Also, the website name says (if I understand correctly) "popular and traditional lieder", so according to that, this piece could be in traditional style (which does not imply popularity). So I think we need to EITHER find another citation OR another hook. Storye book (talk) 11:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Storye book: Not really a fan of the proposed hook, since the context given does not seem to make it clear why it is important that it has remained popular, and the context of it remaining popular is not clear (what is intended by "remained popular"?). I was going to suggest a hook involving Schubert, but the meaning of "different setting" is not clear: does it mean he wrote another melody to the song, or that Reichardt's melody was later re-used by Schubert? If it's the latter then perhaps that could work as a hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The wording I had in mind was something like "... that the melody of "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" (Colourful are the forests already) by Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured) was later used by Franz Schubert?", but I'm not sure if that was the intended context of the "Schubert wrote a different setting" part. That suggestion could probably still be worked on, I just threw it out here for brainstorming purposes. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you - both - for thinking. I am open to rewording. Grammar: in German, "und" says that something is both, both traditional and popular", - if it was only one, German would use "oder". As you will have seen, there were multiple melodies, before and after, but this is the one in most publications, recorded, sung. Take Hannes Wader, a singer-songwriter himself: singing that old melody. (yt at the bottom) - Schubert wrote a different setting (= different melody + different piano), which didn't become popular, - note that only one of the uses mentioned has his version, - it remained for art singers and higher school education. What word would you choose instead of "popular" for: is the one that people know and sing? Schubert is really only a side note here, his setting didn't get popular in any sense, it's not Erlkönig. I didn't know he wrote a melody, but now he wrote 700 (as DYK once informed us). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Would it help to add that it was recorded among the "80 most popular Volkslieder" [2]. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The new reference given by Gerda Arendt is satisfactory, and it explains the meaning of popularity in the article's context. Gerda, could you please give us an ALT1, and put the new sentence and citation in the article? Thank you. Storye book (talk) 08:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Storye bookYou mean a sentence about that collection? (In another nom, someone mentioned "promotional". Anyway, ref added, which supports "remained popular. Will search for more. As a little gift: a children's tv version ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I added two more indications of popularity, a 2011 poll and a 2017 collection. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

ALT0a: ... that the Volkslied "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" (Colourful are the forests already) has remained popular with the 1799 melody by Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured)?

to avoid the impression that only the melody remained popular. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda. The citation is now in the article, and I approve ALT0a, with image. Storye book (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Pulling this per this discussion. Jlwoodwa raised concerns that the hook was hard to understand. In addition, the hook at best probably borderline meets WP:DYKINT. Some possible alternative suggestions:

• ALT1 ... that "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" placed second in a 2011 poll by MDR on the most beautiful Volkslied?
• ALT1a ... that "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" placed second in a 2011 poll by MDR on the most beautiful German folk song?

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

for ALT 1 or 1a, subject to Gerda Arendt's approval. Storye book (talk) 09:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry that I wrote so misleading. Not true. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: As far as I can see, you have not written anything misleading or untrue. Please explain? Thanks.

Regarding the word, "popular", in the discussion someone appeared confused by the word, presumably because they lived in a world so narrow that they did not know that "popular music" is a subsidiary meaning of "popular", which has for hundreds of years just meant that a lot of people liked something. Storye book (talk) 10:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The poll had 20 suggestions without Herbstlied. IT was No. 2 of the additional ones. - Please word for me. A song with a 1799 tune is still popular. The song hast a longish title in German, which I thought was good to translate. The title could mean anything, so we have to say what it is if you ask me. As you will not have noticed the hook is a bit quirky because with a composed melody it's not what you'd expect a Volkslied to be. Why would we not credit the composer who won over Schubert in popularity? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

ALT2 ... that the folk-style melody for "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" was composed long ago by Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured) and it is still liked by many?

ALT1b .... that radio listeners voted "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" second in their suggested list of the most beautiful German folk songs? (See Gerda's comment above, regarding this one). Storye book (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Third party required to approve ALT2 and/or ALT1b only. Storye book (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I think ALT1b would get us into trouble with ERRORS because it's more No. 22, and tough to explain with the 20 from the station. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I really don't think ALT2 as currently written is going to work out. It's rather vague and basically says "did you know that this song written long ago is still popular?", which actually isn't all that uncommon. It would be like a hook saying "that the folk song "Yankee Doodle" from the 1700s remains popular?" I still think something about the poll would be the best option here, although if that really can't work out then either a completely different angle be suggested here, or the nomination be rejected for lack of a hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

And I really don't think that slamming down the hopes of a nomination which bores you (and bores you alone, so far) is a constructive way to contribute. If this subject matter bores you, go and contribute to a nomination about your own favourite music, sport or whatever, and leave us to work productively on this one. Thank you.

Controversy about which tune is the "right" one for a favourite set of verses can be a powerful force, and can cause concerts to be spoiled or cancelled. For example, in the UK (and possibly Europe, I don't know), a favoured tune for Psalm 23 is Crimond. There are many competing tunes for it, including Brother James' Air, which allows more fancy choral settings. However, when some people (including me) hear that tune used instead of Crimond, they become very angry. There is nothing wrong with Brother James' Air, but Crimond is loved for sentimental reasons. I can assure you that the subject matter of ALT 2 is far from boring. Storye book (talk) 10:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

ALT3 ... that the melody for "Bunt sind schon die Wälder", composed by Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured), is still preferred by many, even though the famous Franz Schubert wrote a tune for it? (176 characters)

Third party approval still required for ALT2 and/or ALT3. Storye book (talk) 10:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

We could go with some variation of ALT3 (we probably need to reject ALT2 however due to WP:DYKINT reasons). However, the issue with ALT3 is that it is not directly stated in the article or the source (there is nothing in the article that directly says that people prefer Recihardt's version, just that it exists and is popular while one by Schubert exists). If that could be addressed, ALT3 would be a suitable option.

As for the "bores me" aspect, for what it's worth, Gerda's nominations and hooks have long had a reputation among several DYK regulars (not just me) for failing to meet the interestingness criterion, so it's not just me who has raised concerns. Other editors such as 4meter4 and CurryTime7-24 (incidentally both also classical music experts) have also raised concerns about her nominations and hooks in the past. While one could argue that DYKINT is by its nature a subjective criterion, the fact that Gerda's reputation exists, along with how the current wording of DYKINT was a direct response to one of her nominations, can't be discounted. For what it's worth, I have no issue with classical music as a topic itself and there have been plenty of acceptable hooks about the field from Gerda and other editors like 4meter4 and CurryTime among others. The issue has usually been the hooks themselves, not the field. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Are there any citations available, to support ALT3? Or is there any content in the existing citations, which could be added to the article in support of ALT3? Storye book (talk) 13:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Broadly speaking, classical music is that European vocal and orchestral music composed mostly in the 17th and 18th centuries, the name being reflective of that era's interest in the classical arts, such as Palladian architecture. Classical music tends to be emotionally controlled, with certain formal rules. Then you get transitional composers such as Beethoven who take the mickey out of classical music and play with more emotional stuff. Full-blown 19th-century orchestral music, and music for trained singers at that time in Europe, is called Romantic music, partly because it breaks with the previous century's emotional control. So we are not dealing here on this nom with classical music. It is music from the Romantic era. The confusion arises from today's usage of the word, "classical", where it has come to mean "not pop music". That is to say, when used in that way, the word has little real meaning. Storye book (talk) 13:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

(ec) Packing for return trip. Will be about a day. Hate editing mobile. - Sorry, Schubert takes us too far away. The 2 melodies don't compare. Schubert's is an art song, with no chance to become popular. The composer of such a successful thing deserves mentioning by name, imho. - After edit conflict: indeed, Not classical, but POPULAR. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt, Storye book, and Narutolovehinata5: What is the status of this nomination?--Launchballer 02:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It could use a reviewer who sees that it is noteworthy that this particular old song is still popular (while most others from the time arens't) and that it is due to a specific person's melody. Or first a person to word a better hook for that fact? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

ps: the concerns were archived: Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 203#Bunt sind schon die Wälder (nom). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Would rather recuse from commenting on this nomination further; however, I've struck ALT2 due to the vagueness I mentioned above. My final comment is that my concern about ALT3 being unsupported remains unresolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: As I understand it, the review of the article itself has been completed as a green tick, and has not been challenged. However the hooks are still under discussion. We need a third party reviewer to review the remaining hooks (as I write, ALT3 is the only remaining hook, although the struck hooks could be unstruck if considered interesting). Also, those who contributed to the article need to check that ALT3 is properly supported by citations in the article, then tell us whether we should keep, rewrite or strike ALT3. Storye book (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't see where ALT3 is in the article. Also, where is your reference for the sentence beginning "The first"?--Launchballer 15:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I have reworded the sentence beginning "The first", and provided a citation.

ALT4 ... that the melody for the song "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" (Colourful are the forests already) that Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured) created is the one commonly used today? Storye book (talk) 09:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't see where ALT4 is in the article and you could probably say it about every song ever written.--Launchballer 21:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: The sentence in the article which represents the hook is " The melody that became popular was composed in 1799 by Johann Friedrich Reichardt". Re your comment "you could probably say it about every song ever written.", the original point of the hook was that one would have expected the Schubert setting to have been the popular one because Schubert is famous (and a jolly good composer), but in fact the Reichardt setting has been more commonly used. If you want that fact put back in the hook, that would be very helpful. Storye book (talk) 10:25, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• ALT5 ... that despite Franz Schubert writing a melody for the song "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" in 1816, the version composed by Johann Friedrich Reichardt (pictured) in 1799 remains the most popular?

Maybe this wording works better? It's 180 characters so it's a bit on the long side, but I'm not sure if it's possible to shorten it further while keeping the context and accuracy intact. My main concern is that it's only implicitly, rather than explicitly, stated in the article that Reichardt's version is more popular than Schubert's. If this is the angle that we have to go with (I really wish we could go with the poll one instead as that appears to be the one that's most likely to appeal to general readership), that will need to be taken into account, as I fear that WP:SYNTH might apply if no source exists that actually states that Reinchardt's version is more popular despite Schubert's version existing. ALT4 as currently written is probably unsuitable given that it is reliant on knowledge of Reichardt, which not all of our readers have (and I'm skeptical that adding "1799" will address the concern given the vagueness of the term "popular" in this context, or if it lines up with reality, as discussed above). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: Forgot to ping. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Approving ALT5, and disagreeing with the reservations which follow ALT5 above. Storye book (talk) 10:39, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Actually, it might be for the best for a third-party to approve or reject ALT5, as my reservations regarding WP:SYNTH remain and I have a feeling that objections could be raised over at WT:DYK without at least one other editor having a say if it's supported or not. The tick can be restored if the third-party says that WP:SYNTH is not violated. To make things clear I've struck all other hook options, so regardless only ALT5 for now will be under consideration. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed some movement here. Sorry, I have to say something I said a few times before: drop Schubert. His version was not meant to be popular, never was popular, so "most popular" makes no sense when comparing to Schubert's art song version. To make things clear, if ALT5 makes it, I'll go to ERRORS. Perhaps look at the original hook again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

After giving this thought, I think the best compromise we can do is the following:

ALT5a ... that while Schubert wrote a melody for the song "Bunt sind schon die Wälder" in 1816, Johann Friedrich Reichardt's (pictured) 1799 version is the one that remains popular?

It's basically a reword of ALT3 and it doesn't make any assumptions of "X is most popular despite Y", instead simply acknowledging that X exists but Y also exists and is the one that's popular, not necessarily the most popular. Technically I did introduce new hook facts to the hook by adding the years of publication, but they're just minor additions that don't fundamentally change the main hook facts so I'm IAR approving my own wording in this case. ALT5a to me at least probably resolves any possible SYNTH objections, and in any case I may have just been too cautious anyway. The nom has languished unapproved for long enough, so it should be time to run this with ALT5a. As for the above objection, "not meant to be popular" is not an issue for DYK purposes. I will leave it to the promoter if Schubert's name should be mentioned in full or not. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

References