Talk:Bukey Horde

I think the right way to pronounce is Bokei (Бөкей). Like Бөкейханов Bokeikhanov. Never heard about Bukey. It might be the way Bokei is written in russian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aizhol (talk • contribs) 09:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Bukey Horde boundaries

Here is a western boundary verbal explanation. Here is an eastern boundary limits mapped. This is a topographic map, it depicts Bukey Horde boundaries: it was no Horde lands on Volga and Ural rivers. So this edit made by User:Aizhol is a vandalism. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 11:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Here an area value source: 6.5 mln desyatin = 10,925.4 . That means Bukey Horde area was 7.1 mln ha = 71 000 km². So this edit made by User:Aizhol is a vandalism. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 11:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

These are excellent sources and I hope they're further integrated into the article - perhaps one of the maps can be upload, depending on the copyright situation? Also, Aizhol's edit was in good faith and was certainly not vandalism. Aizhol has made valuable contributions to this and related articles, and it is inappropriate to label him this way. Otebig (talk) 13:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

When an advanced user made the reversion or removal of encyclopedic material, or of edits with the comment: "According to "Зиманов С.З. Россия и Букеевское ханство" it did reach those rivers" this is a mistification as this information is not present in this (or any other) book content. It is is not a truth and User:Aizhol is mistifying me or other users as we know from his/her edits the knolege of the topic. The same user next makes an other one mistification placing a hoax about Bukey Horde area value. This advanced user with the knolege of this topic claims the area value looking very accurate: "The land spread on 921445 square kilometers". We remember his/her attempt to "expand" Bukey Horde area up to Volga and Ural rivers. Now this advanced user is making an other step - area value mistification. The not true value was 1300 % larger then real value. If somebody is "on a level" (I'm sure of User:Aizhol knolege) he/she knows Kazakhstani area - 2.7 mln sq km, so 921445 sq km is over ⅓ of the national area (former Bukey Horde area covers two districts only). Were these two mistifications a "good faith"? Only if the editor was an experimenting new user. That is why according WP:VANDTYPES I was qualifying this behaviour a "Vandalism that is harder to spot, or that otherwise circumvents detection. This can include adding plausible misinformation to articles, (e.g. minor alteration of facts or additions of plausible-sounding hoaxes)". Bogomolov.PL (talk) 16:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

When User:Aizhol added information about 300,000 population it was not so drastic hoax, may be it could depend on his/her original research in population calculating using yurta number 50,000. I was surprised with so large average yurta population: 6 person as in Mongolia recently av. yurta population is 4.5 person. I've checked the population number in the User:Aizhol referenced source and found a 200,000 value supporting my doubts. Now we are in a point when every edit made by User:Aizhol we need check. Just now all informations were revised. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

When the comment "never reached those rivers", it contradicted on what I've heard at school, so I double checked it. Therefore, I reverted. If you think I am a vandal, you may. Judging by your arguments I am a vandal. Ok then. I was just heart a bit by word "never reached". It was like kazakhs were trying to seize the territory or something (though I understood what you ment). Thank you anyway for your interest the History of Kazakhstan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aizhol (talk • contribs) 06:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The delta of Volga is quite large. Here is another source http://www.altyn-orda.com/?p=436. Still it says a bit vaguely about the whether nomadic kazakhs lived on Edil or not. But surely says that there were families who lived at Kigash river, which is part of delta of Volga as far as I understand. But probably, I just childly want to defend my point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aizhol (talk • contribs) 06:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice to meet you again, collegue User:Aizhol. All informations added to an article we need to support with the WP:Reliable sources . As it was declared in our article Khanate was from Volga to Ural. Nomadic Kazakhs can live everywhere, but this is not Bukey Horde territory expanding, isn't it? There are Kazakhs living in US - does it mean a Kazakhstan territory expansion?

You didn't comment your hoax with Khanate area (921445 sq km).

And 300,000 pop. sources you did not provide yet.

I was visiting in Urda (Khanskaya Stavka), it is a nice settlement, cultural people with rich history. I don't read Kazakh so I can't use weblink you provided, but WP:Reliable sources preferres printed scientific sources, I guess.

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I was visiting in Urda (Khanskaya Stavka), it is a nice settlement, cultural people with rich history. I don't read Kazakh so I can't use weblink you provided, but WP:Reliable sources preferres printed scientific sources, I guess Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Those numbers I took it from the kz.wikipedia, and 921445 was a repeated copy-paste mistake. I can't ground 300 number as well. 95 thousand is probably the greatest extend area. According to http://lib.kazsu.kz/Books/bk051/default.htm the area dedicated to Bokei Horde was 6500 thousand destyatin which is more or the less the same as the value currently written in intro. Nomadic people can't live everywhere. Here is another russian source http://nklibrary.kz/elib/collect/statyii/obrazov_bukeev.htm

I wish I could have gone there also (Urda). There is lots of sources of information. Everybody tend to write the history as they want to these days. However there is one standard set of history facts in Kazakhstan which is used in University admissions and stuff. All mostly a school material. It include books written by Kasymbayev (school textbooks). Russian versions of these books are also available.Aizhol (talk) 08:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You see wikipedia is NOT a reliable source (why? look, if everybody can add everything...). So unreferenced figure in kz.wiki is a good evidence of Wikipedia quality. Ru.wiki cites Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary with 92144.5 sq km as a one of the possible area values. But dot "." sign was omitted in kz.wiki. Your job in Wiki was not to translate erroneous data (AlefZet user made this "error"), but analyze this data - it is impossible value 921,445 sq km! And you did not add a fork of max min data, but this largest only - we can not decide this, both values originally are from the same source. An other Russian source you provided clames 5 mln desyatinas = 54,000 sq km. So this source does not supports your value.

Kasymbayev books: I never heard about them, but I'm not questioning these books. Wikipedia rules are to describe a topic from all sides, using every reliable sources. So if Bukey Horde is a part of the Russian history so Russian POV has be present too.

Was 300,000 pop. your fantasy? Or did you read somewhere? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 10:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

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Features of management of bukeev khaganate

Help 2A03:32C0:3004:5908:5576:37BC:7ABF:843B (talk) 10:56, 15 January 2023 (UTC)