Talk:National Socialist Underground murders

Article title

The name of the article is wrong: de:Mordserie Bosporus -look at the german discussion!--ot (talk) 17:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Bosphorus murder series doesn't make much sense either, as the murders were committed in Germany. --Narziß Goldmund (talk) 17:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, they have killed humans not döner. Think about it. Bosphorus murder series is the name from the german police in mecklenburg!--ot (talk) 18:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I am with you, but for want of a better description, we can only wait and see what others decide is a suitable name. So far CNN, Euronews and NYTimes have chosen Doener murders, rather than Bospherus - let's wait and see. --Narziß Goldmund (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not mind either name but it seems like English media prefers "Döner murders". I do not oppose it from being moved but in such a case a redirect should be left behind. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 20:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I would prefare the title "Neo-Nazi murders" like the BBC now names it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17137736 and the German Wikipedia. The Bosphorus has nothing to do with the murders and the current name is misleading and kind of disrespectful towards the victims and not anymore used in the media. With Döner murders it is the same. It leads the people think that it were innerethnic murders and not Neo-Nazi murders. This was the problem during the investigations in Germany, they always pretended that it were innerethnic murders. Would be nice if you could change the title. Thanks. (by Lanogaid: [1])

Done. bosporus and other names have nothing to do with the events and highly misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen (talk • contribs) 00:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, new title is misleading all the same. - Let's just put things straight. Yes, we have this ugly sort of gutter press here in Germany too ("BILD-Zeitung" and the rest). And once they are at it, they are quite good at instigating hatred and prejudices. Always very clever, avoiding legal consequences, just making these allegations with a dirty subtext... That's how the name "Doener-Morde" was coined: just a matter "among them, not us". Bigotry for mass consumption plain and simple. - On the other hand, and that is something even more disturbing, there has been a lot of nazi-terrorist activity before! (Bomb at Oktoberfest in Munich, arson attacs on asylum-seekers, and a lot more of that kind.) - It must be mentioned here that it has always been a constant feature of german offical policy to minimize the threat from right-wing terrorist. - Whilst everybody knows - and the more mainstream newspapers laid it out in all detail - that more than 180 human beings had been killed by nazis since German Unification (i.e. 1990), officals ridiculously downplayed that number to 40-something. And that makes me sick. - Now here is what I would suggest, on how this article might be named "Ceska Nazi murders". - Or something along that line. Main reason is: (1) there have been nazi murders before, (2) the Ceska was the common link in this serial murder (and the only obvious). All the rest about "Doener" and organized crime was pure conjecture of the worst kind - mean and narrowminded. - Hope you can make sense of my contribution and this might help further the debate. -- 46.115.18.68 (talk) 06:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. "Ceska" is also misleading . Readers might think this event has some connection with a Czech neo nazi terrorist organization . The independent uses "neo-Nazi terrorist gangs" . i will change it to neo-Nazi terrorist gang murders.I will wait for your response before i change it . i am adding the link here .please look at it. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-secret-service-destroys-files-on-neonazi-terrorist-gang-the-national-socialist-underground-7897090.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen (talk • contribs) 10:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for your kind reply. - I just wanted to share some information and don't know how to name the thing. I'm living in Germany and am closely following all the details about the affair and it's aftermath. - Being no native speaker of English, I don't know how to make it into a title. I would suggest you might perhaps make a formal request for move. There are some Wikipedia procedures to be observed though. (I'm new to WP and don't know about this technical and formal buisiness.) - As for me I've had enough of it, I won't register to WP, since ... well, have a look at Talk:Bosphorus serial murders#Arrogance & Impolite Behaviour. -- 176.1.235.198 (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

hey how is everything, i have been waiting for couple days .i did more research on this.We need to change this (bospohorus,kebapshop or ceska) title, its very wrong and very misleading. I am changing the title. please talk to me on the talk page . i sent a message to you . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen (talk • contribs) 14:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Sam alen. Endorse it. Good choice, couldn't improve on that. - Please see message on your talk page. Bye -- 176.1.7.158 (talk) 18:47, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Sam alen. Also added reference quote from Reuters there, proving you're absolutely right. -- 46.115.36.239 (talk) 00:44, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you my friend , i ve also checked the source you sent me . I am following and learning so many things each day. i will be keep in touch with you. I think you guys already know it but i just want to share my view here.There are so many terrorist organizations all around the world.This group is just one of them .The US, Uk ,Russia,China,Japan,Turkey,India and so many other countries are dealing and fighting with terrorism .These groups have nothing to do with the country they are in, this group has nothing to do with Germany.its just a group in germany, it has nothing to do with the public. i strongly believe that there are more terrorist groups in countries like Turkey and Russia. just wanted to share my view . take care ,God bless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen (talk • contribs) 12:18, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Removed sources

• "German prosecutors investigate suspected far-right motivation behind 10 murders - The Washington Post". The Washington Post. Retrieved 13 November 2011.
• "German police link kebab murders to neo-Nazis". Reuters. Retrieved 13 November 2011. {{cite news}}: Text "Reuters" ignored (help)
• "BBC News - Germany probes suspected far-right murders". BBC Online. Retrieved 13 November 2011.

Removed sources that may be of use. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 20:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

newspaper article of Frankfurter Allgemeine, 14.11.2011

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/kasseler-mord-in-neuem-licht-verdaechtiger-verfassungsschuetzer-11529097.html

I think this contains important information, so I will translate that article.

Kassel murder in a New Light

Suspicious officer of Verfassungsschutz (Secret Service)

In 2006, Halit Yozgat was shot in his Internet cafe in Kassel. At the time of the crime possibly a former employee of the Hessian Verfassungsschutz (Secret Service) was also at the scene.

On 6 April 2006, Halit Yozgat was shot in his Internet cafe in the Nordstadt quarter of Kassel. The twenty-one aged man was sitting behind the little counter, which was not much more than a desk. In the front room telephone booths were erected, covered with colorful advertising. In a back room were the computer workstations. The cafe was sparsely attended that day. But several witnesses were able later to recall a gaunt middle-aged man who was carrying a bag with him. The man's role changed later, after Halit Yozgat had been shot from a witnesses to a suspect - because he, as the only person, did not report to the police while all other persons present at the crime did so.

Investigators went to the track of the anonymous visitor and secured the hard drive of the computer with which he surfed the Internet and DNA evidence. When they were evaluated, the investigators had a name to their suspect. And not only that, they were also aware of his career: The man was an employee of the Hessian Verfassungsschutz (Secret Service).

The investigations were abandoned

The security agencies were excited by this, but the excitement died down quite quickly. The Kassel prosecutor led the investigation against the man, who was fired from the Hessian State Office for Verfassungsschutz immediately after his arrest. Although there was a search warrant, but the book about serial murders, which was found in his apartment, was rated as an indication only. There were also inquiries about possible connections to other "Doner killings", to which the investigators put the murder in a row eventually - but at least for one crime, the suspect had an alibi.

Investigators combed through even all logbooks, fuel receipts and credit card statements with the support of Hessian State Office for Verfassungsschutz, which was interested in self-enlightenment. But a closeness to the series of murders which had lasted since 2000, was not to be found. So Kassel prosecutor's abandoned investigations a short time later. Since then, the suspect was no longer given special attention - until last weekend.

As for the first time suspicions were expressed that perhaps Thuringian Verfassungsschutz could have known more about the "Nazi underground" (NSU) , the Hessian case was remembered and put up new questions.

Many new details

On Monday morning, after more than five years, new findings were suddenly brought to light. So the earlier Verfassungsschutz employee had not, as he claimed previously, left the internet cafe shortly before the killing, but he had obviously contrary to previous assumptions, been present at the time of the crime in the store.

He is said to have put money on the counter, the fee for computer use. The fact that in the man's apartment firearms were found, next to a book about serial murders, issued by a police publisher, was not yet known.

The Hessian Ministry of the Interior said on Monday it could not comment on the action. A spokeswoman referred to the Attorney General. He will examine again the Kassel case, which is thought to also be related to the "NSU" , and now perhaps will also highlight the role of the earlier Verfassungsschutz employee. In security circles, it is all only about evidence. Against the background of events, a new examination is necessary.

--Hundehalter (talk) 23:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Time

"Uncovering the story of a lost German neo-Nazi group - TIME". Time. Retrieved 17 November 2011.

One more source. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 22:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Bosphorus serial murders#Murder of Michéle Kiesewetter

This section claims (without any sources) that she was killed with the same weapon as the other victims in this article. This cannot be true, as the link (between the nine xenophobic murders and the killing of the police officer) had only been uncovered by finding all the involved weapons in the possession of the Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund. But I propose to delete this section entirely, as this murder was not handled by the SOKO Bosporus, and it is already covered by an article of its own: Michéle Kiesewetter. --Mopskatze (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I was under the impression Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund was responsible for the Bosphorus serial murders. I didn't add that section but all news articles I read talks about the shooting of the police officer in connection with the serial murders. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 17:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

It is correct that this group is made responsible for all of the killings, but the connection was not known until all the weapons were found, and later the DVDs where the members boasted with their murders. There are several weapons involved: 1. used to kill the 9 foreigners, 2.+3. used to shoot the officers (one survived), 4.+5. stolen from the officers after the attack. Of course, there are a lot of sources, but most are in German. --Mopskatze (talk) 22:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Right. So we can establish a connection in this article then. Right? I would not be surprised if more and more murders end up getting attributed to this group as it feels like way more than three people are involved in this. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 23:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I corrected the item. --Itu (talk) 00:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Allegation, not fact

"The perpetrators called themselves National Socialist Underground (NSU) (German: Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund). " Sounds like a proven fact. At the moment this is by no means the case and the evidence used for this is rather dubious. --41.151.42.230 (talk) 14:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Neo-Nazis may have stolen army TNT

• "Neo-Nazis may have stolen army TNT - The Local". Retrieved 27 November 2011.

Should this be added to the article? -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 16:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

More sources

• "Neo-Nazi Terror Cell: Suspicions Destroyed Lives of Victims' Relatives - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International". Der Spiegel. Retrieved 27 December 2011.
• "BBC News - 'Anonymous' targets German far-right with Nazi-leaks.net". BBC Online. Retrieved 15 January 2012.

Some important aspects missing, at least in the introduction

Hi, being German myself, I was a bit astonished about the bias this article has. There is one aspect which is absolutely not emphasized, though it is central: The murders took place over a longer period of time which started years ago. The series got considerable attention in the German media at each time one of the murders happended, because it appeared to be a kind of mystery as no suspects were ever identified, and that each time the same weapon was used. However, neither press nor the investigators then EVER made a serious attempt to raise a suspicion about a political motivation. It was rather displayed as being some sort of "mobster style" revenge murders or sort of this, which also lead (in the past, before the nazi thing came out) to the victim's families being interrogated, suspected for drug trafficking/money laundering, etc. In other words, they did not only suffer from the loss, but additionally had an unnecessary involvement with the police etc. (see SPIEGEL article cited in the thread above this one)

This is also the reason why the German public got a major shock when it came out that the murders had a Neonazi background. Firstly, it had been considered that this kind of race-related hate murders were impossible to happen in Germany, which I still kind of believe. In my very personal view, this (amongst many other factors) strongly points to some kind of government/secret service involvement, which to a person familiar with European "Gladio / Strategy of tension" style activities seems very plausible in these cases.

However, this is not what I wanted to say. The mere fact that the murders were treated as being revenge acts purely amongst immigrants, and that it only came out now that the authorities have (at best) grossly neglected any hints to what they really (as it seems) were, posed a real shock to German society. Hence, many people feel/felt ashamed that the deeds were treated in a "it's just them who kill each other" fashion - which is symbolized in the name the investigation had in the headlines of the German tabloids: "Döner-Morde". Döner (for Döner Kebap) is a famous turkish fast food liked and regularly consumed by many Germans, and some of the victims had such fast food places. However, it is now viewed as derogatory, because if translated to the US or GB, it might be an example that a serial murder amongst indian (from India) shop owners would be called "curry murders". Thats why the term "Döner-Morde" was recently chosen by the "society for the German language" as the "Nono-Word" (Unwort) of 2011. On the other hand, this lately lead to some kind of "tourism" of politicians to the victim's families in order to apologize for the above, which in turn turned out to be a bit absurd, as the families suddenly got so much attention as if to compensate for the negligence beforehand.

Hence, it should at least be mentioned in the introduction that for a long time, the murders were treated in public an amongst investigators as "an internal thing between immigrants", and that there was that major turnaround only recently, when they uncovered the alleged Nazi group and their involvement. I did not look for english sources for my above statements, but I am sure there is plenty, at least commentaries in bigger newspapers with correspondents in Germany.

And, by the way, the hints respectively proofs for government/secret service involvement are numerous, the whole story stinks from start to end. It is officially confirmed that one of the three suspects got a REAL german passport or ID card on a FAKE identity some years ago from the agency whose name is "Verfassungsschutz" (yes, "agency for the protection of the constitution" ;-)), and that at one time one of them got a payment of a considerable amount of money, if I remember correctly, 2000 Marks (about 1500 Euro in today's currency). As there is undoubtedly a major cover-up going on, one does not want to know what really happened. Go reseach yourself. 217.7.150.122 (talk) 16:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Arrogance & Impolite Behaviour

First thought I could perhaps contribute something to the translation. But no! Won't do it, now that I have seen myself how rude and crude non-native speakers are treated here. - User "Kintetsubuffalo" dishing out arrogant remarks ("uh, no. and we use English here" 13:21, 8 July 2012‎) instead of ironing out their minor mistakes. :-( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.45.64 (talk)

One thing more, re. title "Bosphorus serial murders" → "Neo Nazi terrorists murders" (latter btw. is exactly corresponding to German WP!) - Now see note by user "Kintetsubuffalo" for his edit at 13:22, 8 July 2012, claiming: "undiscussed move, meaningless name"! - Obviously he didn't even care to have a look at the top of this talk page here. -- 46.115.45.64 (talk) 01:06, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Look, if you're going to move a page, don't you look stupid if you move it to a grammatically incorrect name? There was a discussion for a better name. Yours was not it. There was no discussion to move it to the generic meaningless name. Even if that were okay, the s at the end of Neo Nazi terrorists murders implies that Neo Nazi terrorists were the ones being murdered. Further, can you say unequivocally that these were the only murders committed by Neo Nazis in the past 60 years? Hogwash. Finally, terrorists is POV, and Wikipedia does not pick sides. Aside from that, the edits were terrible. Shall I go on?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:31, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Wait a minute! Rushing to judgement and dishing out loudly all over again? Why not just tone down a little for a change? - In case you care to know: It was not me who made that move in the first place. That was someone else. But what I did do indeed, was posting a comment "Sorry, new title is misleading ..." about that very move (see above, section "Article title", 06:15, 7 July 2012). I did all that in good faith, giving some reasons and mainly suggesting reconsideration (see also User talk:Sam alen). Now how about that? -- 2.215.209.46 (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

The names you keep choosing are meaningless, they convey no information, and whoever the IPs are coming to your defense, accusing me of vandalism, look an awful lot like sock or meatpuppets. Stop picking generic unused names. That's it. Next time I will bring in the admins.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:27, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Won't you stop it now! Enough of it, for God's sake! - "Next time I will bring in the admins." - Towards whom you neither show even the tiniest bit of respect or decency whatsoever! - You know full well what you have written about that on your user's page and then - these funny "House Rules" of Wild Western mould on your "Don't you dare to contact me!"-page, which btw. are the main reason why this debate is going on here in the first place. - As for bullying, indecency and all the rest, you have already accumulated quite a track-record ... Well, it's about time to bring all this here to the attention of the WP's admin staff! (As I would expressively encourage anyone to do who's reading this and knows about the procedures.) - One thing more: please do not hijack or plagiarize any information for your more than dubious agenda, as you did with my contribution here (Section Article title) 06:15, 7 July 2012 in the phoney twisted post of yours above (14:31, 9 July 2012). - I did some investigating, and it's quite interesting to see that you were eager to keep racist websites in WP as 'sources of reference', drive-by tagged jewish victims of the Holocaust with "citation needed", display Abraham Lincoln as the scull on a scull and bones type Confederate Flag on your user page and lots more of that sort galore. -- 46.115.39.79 (talk) 23:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

This looks childish. You don't have to accept my recommendation, but I am willing to help out here. Firstly, everyone needs to stop with the ongoing discussion about impolite and arrogant behavior. It's clear that this section will only lead to more attacks and icnivility. Secondly, if a problem still remains, then I recommend creating a new section that clearly explains the problem without attacking other editors, so editors, including myself, can look it over and make a recommendation on what we feel. Thanks. --Activism1234 00:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

per Activism1234

Fantastic, and thank you Activism1234 for jumping in with the rational solution!

If a name change is to be made, the new name must be specific, must convey meaning to a broad spectrum of users, and should not be easily confused with any other event. Thus we can dispense with any Neo-Nazi murder spree or similar clones, which convey no meaning or specificity as to time, location, targets, perpetrators, or outstanding trait that separates it from other events. The present name is widely accepted in English, and until a better name comes along, this one is better than the last two attempts. No agenda here, and I sign in so my edits are clear even to my stalkers. If someone has a better name, let's discuss it here and keep all the insinuations out of it.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, then let's do constructive work. Changes of title should be done by the normal WP:RM procedure and after consensus, as was my suggestion all along. Quote (2012-07-10, 15:55): "Being no native speaker of English, I don't know how to make it into a title. I would suggest you [other user] might perhaps make a formal request for move. There are some Wikipedia procedures to be observed though. (I'm new to WP and don't know about this technical and formal business.)"

"Bosphoros" is derived from "Soko Bosporus", the name of the Special Police Commission at the time. (Soko, abbreviation of "Sonderkommission", special investigation team.) These shortnames usually are chosen provisionally in an ad hoc style at the start of an investigation. The press then picks it up for the headlines. (What else could they do at a time when they are still searching for any clues.) - But as seen from now, that rather emphasizes that they were on the wrong track all along. So I mainly consider it obsolete and outdated, mirroring a freeze of that state of ignorance.

It's true, that in the meantime the focus of attention of the more sensationalist foreign press has shifted elsewhere and thus that name may persist somehow. On the other hand it's also true that the more serious media with an establshed network of longterm foreign reporters in residence have dropped that name and bring lots of background and details. (Btw. the content of this WP article is lagging far behind, for 8 month or even more, and thus giving a completely false impression. For foreign readers even all the more so! If all the updating had been done, to which I had been willing to contribute at first, that would have been clear enough for everyone to see. - Cf. german version.)

Then there are some readers who feel the title is offensive. But that's quite another matter altogether and could easily be avoided.

Here's my suggestion:

• WP:RM
• include all the debate allready available in Section Article title
• taking into consideration all the points mentioned in preceding contrib. here above (which are absolutely reasonable)
• title should best conform with other language versions
• should be concise (short, clear and exact)

As that final coining of a title is an art in itself, I would suggest to leave it to a well minded native speaker of english who can best sum up the debate.

Besides, for reasons given above, the redirects for outdated titles by which readers might search for information, should of course be kept for swift access and conveniency and are meaning no offense at all.

All this said, I regret the harshness that came about. Nonetheless it's often best to state clearly what exactly is the reason of an edit (instead of "uh, no!") and leave a message on the talk page if need be (WP:AGF). Some politeness to smoothen any co-operation... The articles about this topic are stil very much "under construction". Any proofreading and corrections are always welcome. -- 46.115.26.127 (talk) 11:54, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

If one of you feels that you have a really good reason to change the name of the article, then you are free to hold a vote of who supports it and opposes it (and please, give reasons why you support or oppose), either on this talk page or WP:RM. Any request to change the name should have a clear, concise explanation for doing so. You should also strive if possible to show where this name is used in the media. Often, if different media outlets and references give it different names, or don't give it a name at all, the title generally takes the form of the year and location, followed by "Attack" or "Bombing" or whatever is appropriate. For example, "2012 Burgas bus bombing." This refers to a bombing in the city of Burgas that took place on a bus in 2012.

Also, all efforts should be made not to bite the newbies. See WP:DONTBITE. If your reason for a title change is good enough, then it should be able to pass through without talking about other editors or making assumptions (see WP:AGF as well).

Hope it helps. --Activism1234 13:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Quality Issues

• This article has 19 references: 3 are broken, 11 are not in english, that makes them 5 in all.
• Mainly it's news of the day as it came out of the press.
• Scarcely any background or analysis.
• What the readers are not told, is that the mysterious murders had always been front headline news throughout. To give the false impression that they went unnoticed and only came to the public's attention as late as in November 2011 is at least misinformation - or just a shameless, blatant lie! The crimes were known, the background was not.
• The content is lagging far behind.
• Lots of details missing about the investigation, traces, etc.
• And please change that title, it's obsolete.

[You see, this here is what you're served, when heavy-handed "last clean edits" kill any new content in the cradle...) -- 46.115.43.95 (talk) 06:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Foreign-language references are still references. WP:NONENG--Atlantima (talk) 23:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Greisbaum

From the text:
The murderers, according to the acting Attorney General of Germany, Rainer Greisbaum.,<ref>"Video - Bundesstaatsanwalt: Polizisten- und Döner-Morde wohl Tat von Neonazis - Panorama" (in German). Retrieved 14 November 2011. {{cite news}}: Text "STERN.DE" ignored (help)</ref> have Neo-Nazi links →Comment of 23:58, 29 November 2011: <!-- they do not just 'have links' , they are now supposed to be ~the biggest Neonazi-terrorists ~ever in german -->.

---

R. Greisbaum is not the Attorney General of Germany, but just one Federal Public Prosecutor at Karlsruhe. Redlink makes no big sense.--Schwab7000 (talk) 14:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

dead link is/was at www.stern.de; (hidden) →comment will be removed from article-text. --Schwab7000 (talk) 14:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The Name Bosphorus serial murders has been critized

The Name of the serial muder has been critized as racist in Germany, the Name of the german-speaking article is NSU murders.--Anti78er (talk) 16:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

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Guardian article of 15 December 2016

The following measured article in The Guardian might be of use to those improving this page. The article covers the role of the media in some detail. It also discusses the unsavory conduct of the BfV domestic intelligence service. Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

References

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:27, 24 May 2017 (UTC)