Talk:Boscawen-Un

Local and other names/spellings

I would not be surprised if there is a local and/or historical name for this circle; does anyone know it? Plus, the original author indicates there are alternative spellings - could these be used to fill out the article a bit rather than just redirects?LessHeard vanU 21:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above - and I'm the original author. I don't have enough info to hand about variant spellings or other names to add to the article as yet. The redirects I created were to catch variant spellings in use in other Wikipedia articles, and to make searching easier. Spellings I have seen are 'Boscawen-Un', 'Boscawen-un', 'Boscawen-Ûn', - and the same but without the hyphens. I've also seen 'Boscawenun'. Ordnance Survey has a small settlement/farm called 'Boscawen-noon' in the same grid square. If anyone can help on this I would be very grateful. DuncanHill 08:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

(To DuncanHill)Yup, I am aware that you were the original author but by placing the Penwith template on the talkpage I have (hopefully) alerted other members of the Project to the existance of this article, so I versed my comments to include any other reader as well. Since one of them has just finished an excellent job on St Buryan it may be that they will be able to help.

I still think adding the various spellings into the main text will be helpful, since a search result for one will also give a reader all the other alternatives without them duplicating their search - likewise if there is a local/historical name.LessHeard vanU 10:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I would choose the most commonly used name and then bung the others in brackets after the first mention e.g St Buryan (sometimes St Burian). I can ask around about Boscawen-Un if you like. Its only a two mile walk for me at present so I could also go over to the circle and see if there is a plaque or something. Would also give me the opportunity to get some pictures Mammal4 11:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

PS thanks for the praise on St Buryan LessHeard vanU;) I'm afraid its not finished yet though - i still have lots to write! Mammal4

Most of those variant spellings (e.g. with hyphen or without, capitalized or not) are pretty superficial and are just likely to create clutter. I wouldn't mention them in the article itself, but make redirects from each. That circumflex could be worth a mention, though; there can't be too many places in Britain outside Wales that use it!

Anybody got a digital camera? QuartierLatin1968 16:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The most common spelling locally (apparently) is Boscawen-Un. The plaque at the site uses the hyphen, but not the circumflex Mammal4 22:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In academic works its referred to as Boscawen-Un (with the hyphen, without circumflex!) - apparently it means 'the elder tree on the downs'. JimChampion 00:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

This page on the pznow website says that an alternative name for this circle is the "Nine Maidens". It continues The name of nine maidens is a misnomer and does not pertain to the number of stones but to the phases of the lunar cycle. Apparently the Blind Fiddler stone at grid reference SW425282 is linked to the Boscawen-Un nine maidens by the usual 'turned to stone for dancing on a sunday' legend. JimChampion 19:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It is something of a miracle that the violin family survived into the modern age, since many practitioners (according to legend/lore) appear to be prone to petrification as an occupational hazard.LessHeard vanU 20:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Photographs

I've taken several photos of the circle this week which I will upload drekkly. Unfortunately due to the position of the circle within a small enclosure it wasn't possible to get the whole circle in one shot. I will upload what I have and people can tell me which ones they like best. Mammal4 22:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

With regard to the photographs, there's no need to make extra work for yourself. I and many others have taken photos of this site (although admittedly its difficult to get an overall view without going airborne because of the enclosure). Follow the link from the 'external links' section to the Megalithic Portal page. Ask people there if they are willing for you to re-use their pictures. I've uploaded one of mine onto wikimedia commons and put it into the gallery on the Boscawen Un page. Two of the photos that are already in the gallery are not really suitable - the inclusion of a bright sky has made the foreground detail too dark and the stones cannot be clearly seen. I could digitally manipulate them to bring out the foreground detail but its probably easiest to replace them. I'll leave that to someone else as I don't want to butt in too much. Also - the leaning central pillar makes this stone circle very distinct. I'll upload one of my pictures of it shortly and put it in the gallery. JimChampion 11:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Grid reference

I have added the OS grid reference to the article - is there a way of linking it to a mapping service eg 'Getamap' so that readers can click on the grid ref and be taken to a map? DuncanHill 08:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is possible - see this for example. Its seems to be done automatically in the infoboxes for places (e.g. Glastonbury). Again - don't make extra work for yourself, someone somewhere has already done this on Wikipedia, but I can't find the example I'm thinking of right now :( Edit: Found it! Have a look at the top of the Sennen Cove page JimChampion 11:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank Jim! DuncanHill 13:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Leaning centre stone

Is it known/speculated that the leaning stone was placed at an angle, or whether is is irregular subsidence?LessHeard vanU 14:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll quote directly from Aubrey Burl's authoritative volume "The Stone Circles of Britain, Ireland and Brittany" (Revised edition, Yale University Press, 2000) page 170: "When Boscawen-Un was trenched around in 1864 no deposits were found at its base. The diggers believed 'that it was carefully placed in its leaning position'. More sensibly Stukely thought that 'somebogdy digging by it to find treasure disturbed it." From the same book, I've read that its likely that the central stone was there first - a solitary standing stone like many others in West Penwith from the Neolithic era. The ring of smaller stones around it may have been a later addition (Bronze age), as at Callanish in the outer Hebrides. Central stones are unusual in SW stone circles - only others are at the Stripple Stones and the Hurlers on Bodmin. I'll leave you with a Boscawen-Un anecdote from the same book - "When the late Peter Pool, a student of linguistics and amateur archaeologist, was clearing a path to the Boscawen-Un ring he was flabbergasted to see a number of naked women dancing and chanting inside the stones. he coughed discreetly. Perhaps too discreetly. Only when their rites were completed to the party's unclad satisfaction did the celebrants disperse". The path from the A30 was well-cleared (by PAROW?) when I visited in August - easily navigated it in the dark. JimChampion 00:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The quartz stone

Another unusual feature of this stone circle (amongst its contemporaries in Penwith) is that one the stones in the circle is different to the others... the stone that the central pillar leans away fromis a big quartz block. I don't have a good photo of this stone (either due to shadows or taking a long exposure at night using a torch for lighting). Are there any interpretations of this stone, if it has any special 'significance'? I've read stuff about the pillar and quartz representing 'male and female energies' but this is a bit vague. JimChampion 10:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

De-stubbifying Boscawen-Un

I've had a go at expanding and de-stubbifying The Merry Maidens stone circle article. It now has subheadings, references using templates, see also etc. You might like to use it as a guide as to go about de-stubbifying this page. I've kept the physical description of the site, the archaeological interpretations and the "myth and legend" separate - in the scholarly style! JimChampion 10:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Alignments

I have added the sentences about the alignment between this site, Men-an-tol, and the church at St. Buryan. This is easily verifiable with Google Earth.--Carfax6 22:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The leaning stone aligns exactly with the centre stone at the Mên-an-Tol and the church at nearby St Buryan.

I've removed this speculation. Firstly the leaning stone points roughly east-north-east - certainly not at the Mên-an-Tol. Perhaps what was meant was that the stone circle itself is in alignment with these two sites. But such alignments are very easy to make - one could equally say it's on an alignment with Carn Euny and The Merry Maidens, etc. Pasicles (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Druids and too many other suggestions

Despite all the suggestions I raise below. I like the article. I just didn't want to plough into it unannounced. I also suggest and would like this post to be archived (or deleted) after due consideration, if thought appropriate.

The article currently states:

It is possible that it was a meeting place for druids in the Iron Age.

Whilst there is no reliable evidence against this proposition, I warn that it shares this possibility equally with everywhere else in the British Isles and Gaulish France (monument or no monument). Current academic thought is perhaps best summarized thus:

"We can know virtually nothing of certainty about the ancient Druids, so that — although they certainly existed — they function more or less as legendary figures." - Ronald Hutton. Blood and Mistletoe: The History of the Druids in Britain. 2009, New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-14485-7.

No site or artifact has been definitively associated with Druids, scientifically (with the disputed exception of the too general "Island of Anglesey", north-west Wales). The only [almost] contemporary writers of them described the overwhelming abundance of gold, and so many pearls they dumped them in large mounds on the beaches in the Celtic (and Gaulish) lands. How reliable were Cicero, Pliny the Elder, Tacitus and Cicero about that?

And while I am here ...

The etymology is not quite correct. Scawen does not mean an older tree. It refers to the Elder tree (sambucus racemosa - the species known as the European Red Elder or Elderberry - perhaps you've tasted its wine or Sambuca). It is still called that in rural Cornwall (i.e. all of it). Forgive my very rusty Cornish language skills (not much call for it here in California), but I believe scawen is the plural form. If editor(s) feel that "Elder trees" (which should not be capitalized in the article) might continue to be misconstrued for "older trees", I suggest using the alternative equivalent English name "elderberry trees".

The article also states:

The location was apparently carefully selected, because it lies within visual range of The Merry Maidens stone circle and the two Pipers standing stones. In addition, a view of the sea, rare in this area, is offered here.

I would suggest either removing the first six words (or seven), or providing a precise citation for this in a published reliable source. Wikipedia reports on verifiable reliable content, above any apparent or obvious truth. How would a contemporary reliable author know how much care went into site selection?

Never knowing when to shut up ...

• Dumnonia definitely included all of modern mainland Cornwall. Only its Eastern boundary moved and was subject to speculation, and that was far enough away from Cornwall and "undreds" away from Boscawen-Un.
• LessHeard vanU asked for an ancient historical name. Yes it has one. Combining modern orthography with the ancient alphabet, the ancient name is Boscawen-Un. It is Cornish, a language very closely (somewhat mutually intelligibly) related to Welsh, the oldest written language currently in use in Europe.
• It isn't formerly in Penwith. It is still in Penwith (not to be confused with the local district government entity of the same name from 1974-2009).
• Personally, I would like the See Also specified domain to be expanded beyond circles (and ellipses!). Chysauster, Men-an-Tol and other ancient Penwith sites could then be included.
• In my opinion. Wikilinks to this article should be added to Penwith: Places of interest, Places of interest in Cornwall, and many other articles and lists. See [[Category:Visitor attractions in Cornwall]] and [[Category:Cornwall-related lists]] for some ideas. (Sorry. I couldn't insert links to category pages, for some reason).
• I guess it isn't really important or relevant, but the main shopping street in Cornwall's capital city is named Boscawen Street. See https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Truro#mediaviewer/File:Boscawen 1810.jpg/2. It hasn't changed.

Despite any appearance from all of the above that I didn't like this article, none was implied, and none should be inferred. I like it very much indeed, except for feeling homesick just before Christmas. Thank you dh. ChrisJBenson (talk) 03:02, 22 December 2013 (UTC) (now homesick in California).

Britannia - Date?

I have added a rough date to the reference to Wm. Camden's Britannia in the History section. Since Britannia was published in many editions over 20-odd years, I picked the date Camden is said to have visited Devon (& possibly Cornwall). Perhaps a scholar familiar with the work can provide a better date? --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2020 (UTC)