Talk:Bonsai/Archive 1

Archive 1

(assorted old comments)

A more recent development is the use of an old potato starting to grow roots to do the same, in a much less difficult version which requires only months of neglect instead of years of work. However, interesting potato roots are somehow less artistic than a miniature tree.

The above looks like nonsense -- "months of neglect instead of years of work" -- bad joke? -- Tarquin 17:42 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

Sadly, no. http://www.bonsaipotato.com/ Kistaro 17:56 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

Ah. A bad joke with a website, then. -- Someone else 18:02 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

I have seen kits for this sort of thing at bookstores like Hastings, Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc. The only reason they refer to it as "Bonsai" is because you prune the roots to a certain shape. I guess it's the bonsai community's equivalent of a poseur. Sidebar, I'm new to this, so if I mess up on here, someone let me know, I would appreciate it. Thanks.VeritasEtAequitas

Looks like a fad/joke on a par with Bonsai Kitten. Not particularly encyclopedic. -- Solipsist 11:13, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is obviously complete nonsense. By the way, the pot on the main page of that website says "po-ra-to." Someone's clearly screwed up the katakana for "po-te-to." If they can't even get that right... Exploding Boy 00:52, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

The pot actually says "po-te-to". The kana for "re" is actually an angular, backwards J, which is not the symbol on the pot...User:STFUSSABMUD 9:13, 26 Jul 2007

It's also not really a good candidate for bonsai - there's no foliage to speak of and it's not going to survive for very long. I suppose in the right pot it might look kinda cool for a while...--Nulldevice 14:39, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

---

"... brought to Japan 700 years ago." ... bad style, should be 'around 1300' or smthn (clem 17:41, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC))

---

The pronunciation instruction ("bone zai") looks (and sounds) sort of weird to me...

Differing Philosophy

There is a tendency even here to prescribe certain methods of studying and maintaining bonsai that are not global. For example, the use of Japanese terms to describe certain shapes may work for some, but as the son of a Bonsai master, I never use such terms. I would like to suggest avoiding prescribing methods of care for bonsai as well, as in my experience such advice is foolhardy at best. I maintain an Australian nursery, so I keep having to treat trees that have been cared for, following methods prescribed for English, or Japanese climates. Phanatical 10:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Jujube tree

I would like some help. I am planing to buy this 6 years old jujube tree in Oregon USA and thinking of making a bonsai jujube buy trunk chopping. Question is....if I chop the trunk will it sprout again. Any help will be appreciated

mygarden.net.au

At first I thought "Bonsai care" secttion had been copied from this page: http://www.mygarden.net.au/flex/bonsai_tree_care/119/1

But looking at the history of this page, it seems to be the other way around. Some of the aditions made hre after the section was created are in that page as well. --Apoc2400 14:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I contacted them and it has been confirmed that they got the material from this article. -- Kjkolb 19:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Better, I hope

I edited this Bonsai Care section rather heavily just now to remove jargon and keep to the point of generalities without focusing on what people disagree about and different ways of doing things. There really is no point in tossing out terms like nebari and yamadori in a paragraph on basic bonsai care. In my opinion, this topic of bonsai care would be better as a separate article. I hope it reads a bit easier, anyways.

I would like to support the proposal that the entire section on "Bonsai Care" be removed, or moved to separate pages where more appropriate (local) techniques can be discussed. If my customers were to follow the instructions on Wikipedia, their trees would be Dead. As a Chinese-heritage, neo-Australian grower, I also never use such terms as "nebari", "jin" or any of that crap.58.107.86.207 11:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree to a point on the jargon. In the USA and most of Europe and even in your country of Australia the words are used very often and are part of the Bonsai culture. Even calling it Bonsai is a foreign language term. I did not put any of these terms back in but if a user were to read this Encyclopedia article then talk to most any local bonsai shop they would not be ready at all for the amount of common and foreign words used and what they mean. Also Jin vs. Shari, are more descriptive than just "Deadwood". Also Nebari is a specific place that is of large importance to the stability and look of a tree. It is not just "trunk" it would be lowest portion of the trunk where the roots join and form, it is generally the thickest part of the truck. It is not a "trunk" it is also not just the "root buttress" it is the joining of the two. I may put some of the terms back in, but include a basic rundown of their meaning.Sardious 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Bonsai tourism globalize request

Have removed globalize template from this section after adding a wider selection of examples. HMAccount 19:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Nicely done, thanks! - MPF 20:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Rewriting the Article

I have begun work on improving the historical outreach of this article, referencing work from my upcoming book. It is my hope to "de-Jap" this article, refocusing it instead on the use of "bonsai" as a term to describe the horticultural arts throughout Asia, including Chinese/Vietnamese/Korean forms. I believe this is important, as the term "bonsai" does not necessarily mean "Japanese bonsai" in English-speaking countries - my own nursery, for example, is a "bonsai nursery" who specialises in Australian style bonsai derived from Chinese tradition.

Further, I do not believe that bonsai care information belongs in a Wikipedia article. As I and others have mentioned in the past, it is unreasonable to believe that a single set of instructions provided in an encyclopaedia with a global focus could possibly be applicable throughout the world. Again, this is from my own experience - I always use normal potting mix, and I always sit my bonsai in watertight trays because here my trees will sometimes sit in full sun at 45 degrees Celsius. For this reason, I would like a vote among contributors as to whether the bonsai care section should remain. Phanatical 20:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems a good idea to me to at least re-shape and prune it back hard. Wikipedia is not a 'how to', that sort of thing goes on Wikihow. Some information on methods would be proper, though, so not a complete throw-away. Dig out the toolkit, and see if you can make a nice shapely bonsai out of the article. - MPF 21:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see the need to take all Japanese references out of the article. There is a page on Penjin already. If you want to discuss and focus on the Chinese style of potted trees why not do it on that page? This is article about Bonsai not Penjin. I see no issue With including sections on other styles. On the topic of Bonsai Care section, I agree as well that it should be taken out. Most of the "care" section is just ideas on techniques for caring and training. I would like to see general techniques talked about. Would like to see these referenced to prove they are general and not for it into just one personas opinion of soil mixes or watering techniques. This way techniques will show both sides to maintain NPOV. Sardious 18:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the Japanese words need to stay. Whether or not a one person uses the terms or not doesn't change the fact that many people, from all over the place, DO use the words. They are part of the culture, articles, conversations, and books are full of japanese technical words. It's an article on bonsai, and if jargon is part of bonsai then the jargon should be part of the article. Who would write a car article and not talk about cylinders, or primer? Or write a plant article and not include the scientific name? Us the words or don't, but that doen't mean they aren't real.--Globalist1789 16:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"de-Jap"??? WTF?! A little ethnocentric there aren't we? Keep it all.68.97.34.15 10:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

In China, Penzai (盆栽) means 'plotted plant' and Penjing (盆景) means 'plot scenery'. Bonsai (盆栽) is a Japanese pronounciation of the chinese word Penzai (盆栽). The word Bonsai (盆栽)has been used by the West to indicate 'plotted plant' and has been mis-understood by many people as a specific indication of Japanese culture. Almost all features of Japanese Bonsai(盆栽) can be found in Chinese Penzai (盆栽)! This article should at least point out this fact! This situation is the same for Ramen (拉麵), which is only a Japanese pronounciation of the chinese word Lamian (拉麵). --Gomeying (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Graphics on Commons

Maybe someone would like to include them here: commons:Category:Bonsai. --62.203.210.47 17:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Gauge not referenced in an encyclopedic manner

In the following sentence under the wiring section, gauge is used nonuniformly:

The thickness of the wire used should match the size of the branch— larger branches will require lower gauge wire. Two pieces of a lower gauged wire paired together can be used in lieu of heavier wire.

The first time it uses the word, it clearly intends a "lower gauge" wire to be wider (which is what I am used to as a diy electrician), but the second clearly intends "lower guage" to mean narrower. I do not know which is correct in this insance, so I chose not to risk incorrectly editing. Can someone clarify this and hopefully fix it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.158.233.56 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 12 October 2006.

You are right, the second use should be 'two pieces of higher gauged wire'. But since the Wire gauge scale is somewhat counterintuitive, I'll rephrase the second use as just 'two pieces of thinner wire'. -- Solipsist 07:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed

Took out this sentence:

A stigma about bonsai is that they are "genetically dwarfed and are kept small by cruelty" (The Bonsai Site, 1997-2006). In fact, "with proper care they should outlive a normal sized tree of the same species" (The Bonsai Site, 1997-2006).

There is no scientific evidence for the latter claim at all, and claims of 'cruelty' or not to plants are rather irrelevant. - MPF 12:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Commercial External Links?

Who controls the protected External Links tab at the bottom? There has been a link for years to a non-commercial Bonsai Wiki http://wiki.bonsaitalk.com , which is relevant and in the spirit of wikipedia. I see that link (among others) have been pulled and in its place is what appears to be a protected external link divider with a single entry linked to a a site with banner ads. What's up? - memobug 17:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, remove links to purely commercial websites, but in my opinion this does not justify removing links to all non-commercial websites other than http://wiki.bonsaitalk.com

Agreed; commercial links should be removed (in general as well); however the bonsai wiki is debatable (generally, new/small wikis are a bad idea to link to). Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 18:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

All external links again removed with the exception of the one to Bonsaiwiki. My understanding of the 'External Links' is that it is not there purely for Bonsaiwiki but for non-commercial links to related external websites. Again, I have added an external link and again kept the Bonsaiwiki link in place, please respect this. --Harry harrington 08:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

All external links removed with the exception of the one to Bonsaiwiki for the third time today. In the spirit of trying to avoid a very tedious editing battle I have retained the bonsaiwiki link. For the last time.--Harry harrington 21:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Great Link

Someone care to post this? http://www.bonsaihunk.us/pic/nat/nat.html 75.73.191.97 00:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Bonsly Image

Can someone please format the image of the Pokémon Bonsly under "In Popular Culture"? The syntax seems correct to me, but there's no caption box around it, and it would look a lot better if it was fully contained within the section to which it pertains. And, if that someone wants to leave a note on my talk page telling me how to do this myself in the future, it would be appreciated. =) Candent shlimazel 19:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Copy Edit

I've added a copy-edit tag to this article. Parts are currently written as a how-to and could be improved. RichMac (Talk) 08:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Atlas Blue Cedar, 57 yrs old: A better example of upright informal style, in a better photo? Wetman 09:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

WP China

Is this article truly one that should be in WPC? On the one hand, it does state that the word "Bonsai" covers Penjing as well in the west, and the gardening form does stem from China, but on the other hand, the article has precious little China-related content, and there is a separate Penjing article. I'd like a few opinions, so a consensus can be reached. Personally, I have no real opinion - it does seem to be a subject with very little actual China-related content, but on the other hand, the more projects an article is in, the better (unless the cooks get too many :). TomorrowTime 16:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it hurts to have it be part of the China project. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

POV Template

I put it up. There's a lot of subjective how-to advice, like "When working with the branches, consideration should be given to the style desired.", "It is bad form to let any wires cross", "Bark must never be removed in a complete ring around the trunk", "This is because they have characteristics that make them appropriate for the smaller design arrangements of bonsai." etc 219.79.114.119 (talk) 10:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

POV template replaced with more appropriate howto template. Beechhouse (talk) 09:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

What about list of species suited for bonsai?

I am surprised to find no list of plant species with comments regarding their suitability for bonsai. Am I missing something? Would anyone object if I start one? —207.179.172.216 (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Retrofit topic-year headers

21-March-2008: I have grouped older topics above using headers "Topics from 2006" (etc.) to emphasize age of topics. Older topics might still apply, but using the tactic of yearly headers to note the age helps avoid rehashing old news, without archiving any ongoing issues. Also, new topics are more likely to be added to the bottom, not top. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Rewording how-to text

21-March-2008: Wikipedia restricts content to improve quality, but how-to sections are a debatable issue. Unfortunately, perhaps 90% of reader interest in bonzai will be the amazing "how" aspect, so I suggest rewording how-to as "how-was it done" to avoid complaints. The problem is similar to warning of dangers about flat tires: swerving out of traffic, opening the trunk/hatch in traffic winds to remove jack/sparetire, loosening lug nuts first to avoid pushing off jack, then raising jack on pavement to avoid slipping (or sinking) in damp soil, etc. That flat-tire text might seem like how-to steps, but is truly a list of dangers in logical order. Similarly, the steps explaining bonzai techniques might seem to be how-to section, but the steps simply follow a logical thought progression of related techniques explaining, not teaching, the subject. The key is to describe steps in past tense (not "will produce") as to how results were achieved. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

No - Wikipedia is not a 'how to'. Trying to weasle around the intent of Wikipedia serves no one. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If someone would be interested in finding 'the best' 'How To' version of this article, we can get it transwiki'd to WikiSource. It may have been back in January of 2008? TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 22:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the section is fine. From reading that, I could not start making my own bonsai. It reads more as an explination as to the process of bonsai, but not a how to guide. 63.165.163.222 (talk) 18:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Material to be transwiki'd

If someone knows how, they can transwiki this material to Wikitravel. It would need major re-write to be included in this article. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 11:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Bonsai tourism

A collection of bonsai at Florida's Melbourne Zoo.

John Naka's masterpiece, Goshin, is on display at the United States National Arboretum.

Bonsai collections are open for public viewing in many cities around the world.

• Australia: Admission is free at the Brisbane Botanic Gardens, where the Bonsai House displays hundreds of trees, some 80 years old.
• Belgium: The Belgian Bonsai Museum hosted by the Bonsai Centre Gingko at Laarne organizes international competitions and workshops.
• Canada: The Montreal Botanical Garden has an indoor collection of bonsai and penjing that can be viewed year round.
• China: Classical and Botanical Gardens in Beijing [1], Shanghai [2] and Suzhou [3].
• France: the medieval castle in Lourdes has a collection of miniature villages and farms decorated with bonsai.
• Germany: The Grugapark in Essen has a permanent bonsai exhibition.
• Indonesia: Pluit Bonsai Centre in Jakarta is an enormous sales and trading centre for growers and collectors.
• Italy: Crespi Bonsai hosts an international competition, the Crespi Cup, every year at the Bonsai Museum in Milan.
• Japan: Near Tokyo, the city of Omiya has an artisanal village of bonsai growers and stylists grow and maintain their stock. In Omiya Bonsai Village, more than a half dozen large bonsai nurseries allow visitors to view trees most days during growing season.
• Singapore: Thousands of bonsai are on display at the Chinese and Japanese Gardens on two islands in Jurong Lake.
• Taiwan: Bonsai from Taiwan look different to Japanese bonsai and Chinese penjing.
• Spain: Museo de Bonsai, Marabella.
• Latin America: Bonsai is very popular in Latin American countries, particularly in Puerto Rico. Funds have been approved for a National Arboretum in this small tropical island. As the leading country in Latin American bonsai, Puerto Rico will be the host for the 2009 World Bonsai Convention.
• United Kingdom: The Birmingham Botanical Gardens and Glasshouses hosts a rotating collection of about 25 trees at a time. Heron's Bonsai Nursery in Surrey amasses 7 acres of a wide range of bonsai trees. Also on show are examples from the owner's personal collection alongside Japanese gardens. Kew Gardens has small collection of around 60 trees, and a Japanese garden.
• United States: The United States National Arboretum in Washington, DC contains the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum, some of them gifts from the Nation of Japan or foreign heads of state. The Marjorie McNeely Conservatory in St. Paul, Minnesota's Como Park has a Bonsai Room. The Arnold Arboretum in Boston, Massachusetts is home to the Larz Anderson Bonsai Collection. On the West Coast the Weyerhaeuser Corporation maintains a collection open to the public at its headquarters near Seattle. In California, the Golden State Bonsai Federation has two collections: the Collection North in Oakland, and the Collection South Huntington Library and Gardens in San Marino. The North Carolina Arboretum in Asheville, NC also has an excellent display of Bonsai. The C.V. Starr Bonsai Museum of the Brooklyn Botanic Garden houses a famous collection of indoor and temperate or outdoor bonsai plants and are exhibited in a Japanese-style architectural setting. The Brooklyn Botanic Garden's bonsai collection is the second largest on public display outside Japan, featuring as many as 100 specimens at any given time. Some of the trees in the collection are well over a century old. A stylized verandah complete with tokonoma, or alcove, looks out onto the entire exhibit. Longwood Gardens in Chester County Pennsylvania has approximately 10 different bonsai trees on display for public viewing.
• India: Sri Ganapathi Sachchidananda Avadhoota Datta Peetham, Mysore, Karnataka.

Image sizes

22-March-2008: All images in the article "Bonsai" had been set as "thumbnail" or "thumbnail|upright" to be auto-resized according to each user-preferences setting. Unfortunately, autosizing is limited to a max of 250px, and some images, such as the set of bonsai tools, were too small to match the related image caption. I have enlarged some images to show more detail for the multiple objects within each image. Graphic magnification has some psychological effects that should be noted: enlarging by just 50% can make an image seem double in size due to the sharpening of details and edges that were formerly blurred at the smaller size; and some images have a "threshold magnification" where an increase of perhaps 5% larger can sharpen blurry details. The article's images might have been kept small due to a "bonsai-tiny" mindset for displaying images. However, some people have tried to convert Wikipedia to "Cellfoneipedia" by shrinking images in thousands of articles to display better on cellphones than on full-screen PCs. However, larger images are needed to connect details listed in captions to the actual image being displayed. From a scientific viewpoint, the user-preferences setting for "auto-sizing thumbnails" should have been implemented as a factor for screen size, not a mathematical constant such as 180px or 250px, but few wiki developers or computer programmers are experts in computer graphics along with all other computer skills: the expanse of knowledge in computer technology is just too great, and expecting wiki software to be sophisticated across all features is expecting computer programmers to learn and work for decades without the typical information-overload burnout, as happened with the high divorce rate among the NASA Apollo Program families during the Moon landings. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:08, 22 March 2008

Sekijoju

Can someone find a Japanese reference where "sekijoju" is used? Neither the Japanese article or several Japanese bonsai sites I checked seem to include it. Where does it come from? I guess the kanji is 石上樹, but that only produces 3 hits in Japanese on Google with one false positive. Akmoilan (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Conflict on date of origin

The article states "The origins of bonsai are believed to have begun at least 4000 years ago during the Han Dynasty in China." According to its article, the Han Dynasty (206 BCE–220 CE) only began 2200 years ago. Could someone knowledgeable please clarify? Kiore (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Not only is the date in conflict, but the place of origin may well be. See "Babylon: The Origin of Bonsai?" at http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=611

Art of Bonsai Project link

The link to the Art of Bonsai Project was removed for some unknown reason. It is a non-commercial site dealing with the artistic aspects of bonsai, the only such site on the web, please leave it in place. Will Heath (talk) 05:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Art of Bonsai Project is essentially a wiki/forum with no evidence that it has a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, therefore, it is being removed under our external link guidelines. If you have evidence that can convince the community that the site indeed has a reputation that would qualify it as a reliable source, please present it and we can discuss. -- The Red Pen of Doom 06:07, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The Art of Bonsai Project is the only forum geared toward the discussion of bonsai as an art form. Art, being subjective by nature, is impossible to define and nail down with facts. You are asking for something that the greatest minds of history have not been able to produce. Those articles that suggest alternatives to traditional thinking, such as the origin of bonsai are fully referenced and cited.

The argument here was about commercialization, certainly the Art of Bonsai Project qualifies as non-commercial in every sense of the word. As to a reliable source, I am quite able to produce testimony from some of the greatest bonsai artists of our time attesting to the usefulness and reliability of the project.

In closing, this Wiki page ignores the commonly accepted belief that bonsai is a valid and important art form. Linking to the only non-commericial forum that addresses the artistic aspect of bonsai offers a chance for the readers to explore this side of bonsai. 71.79.116.32 Will Heath (talk) 18:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

As a forum, the site is not appropriate for an external link. Period. If you have reliable sources that back up your claim that "that bonsai is a valid and important art form" then we add it into the article with its source. But forums are not reliable sources. This article may not meet your ideas for what you want to say about bonsai and do for its community, but that is not the purpose of Wikipedia - wikipedia is an encyclopedia and we have articles of encyclopedic content. If you wish to be involved in something other than an encyclopedia, you should probably go to another site. If you wish to help improve this encyclopedia, we welcome your support in actions that improve wikipedia as an encyclopedia. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was editing my response above while you were replying. Please consider the following:

According to the posted policies,a web site that is not deemed a reliable source can still be allowed if it contains information by very knowledgeable sources. The Art of Bonsai Project has articles from some of the best bonsai artists of our time such as, Walter Pall, Robert Steven, Morten Albeck, etc. It is also a fact that the majority of the discussion on the site is by very knowledgeable and experienced bonsaists.

I ask that the policies as stated here at Wiki be followed and that, since the Art of Bonsai project meets or exceeds all posted policies on this matter, an external link be allowed for this site. Will Heath (talk) 18:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It is pretty clear to me that the site fails WP:ELNO specifically:

10) Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace),[1] chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), USENET newsgroups or e-mail lists.

11)Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority (this exception is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies). (emph added)

Show me that the contributing "best bonsai artists of our time" at that forum "meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies" (i.e. WP:N and Wikipedia:Notability (people)) and then we can talk. -- The Red Pen of Doom 19:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Here are a few of the authors of articles on the Art of Bonsai project:

Carl Bergstrom Associate Professor Department of Biology University of Washington http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/steelyard.php http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/asymmetricalnebari.php http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/tokowindow.php

Walter Pall Walter Pall is known throughout the world for his distinctive style, willingness to teach, and straightforward approach. He has received several dozen national and international awards for his bonsai. He has won the most prestigious Crespi Cup Award of Italy for his Rocky Mountain Juniper and has come in among the top six, every time he has entered. He has also won second and third places in the Gingko Cup Awards of the Belgium bonsai competition of which he is the first artist to have 10 bonsai accepted. http://artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/thoughts.php

Robert Steven http://artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/designprinciples.php Robert Steven has been involved in the art since 1979 and has won more than 50 competition awards nationally and internationally. He is also very active in national and international bonsai organizations. His recent book 'Vision of My Soul' brings his thoughts and his love for the art of bonsai into the light it well deserves.

Colin Lewis http://www.artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/westernart.php Colin has been studying bonsai for over thirty years and has published several bonsai books and numerous bonsai articles. He is a consultant to the Larz Anderson Bonsai Collection at the Arnold Arboretum of Harvard University.

Morten Albek http://artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/displaysteps.php http://artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/indoor.php http://artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/shohindis.php http://artofbonsai.org/feature_articles/styles.php Morten Albek has written articles which have been published in Bonsai Europe; for the all Japan Mame-Bonsai Association website; the Danish Bonsai Society and other publications. From 2006, articles with focus on Shohin-bonsai will be published in Bonsai Today, too. Later in 2006 the book 'Shohin-bonsai, Less is More', will be released by Stone Lantern. He has recently publish his own book. He won the Danish New Talent Competition in 2001 and the Keyaki Masters Talent Competition in Denmark in 2003. He is a member of the All Japan Shohin-Bonsai Association (since 2005), the British Shohin Association (since 2006) and the Danish Bonsai Society (since 1993), Morten was also selected as the European representative to the American Shohin Bonsai Society in 2005. Morten has travelled to Japan to meet the masters of bonsai to learn more about bonsai by discussing aesthetic views of the art and during his latest trip, Morten also produced a TV-programme about bonsai.

AoB also features one on one interviews with some of the most knowledgable bonsai professionals in the world including such masters as Masahiko Kimura, Qingquan Zhao, Nick Lenz, Brent Walston, Budi Sulistyo, Peter Chan, Min Hsuan Lo, Cheng Cheng-Kung, Marco Invernizzi, and other world reknowned bonsaists, a list of all can be seen at http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=23

The above named individuals fit into the noteability critiria for creative professionals:

The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors. All qualify

The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique. Some qualify, such as Walter Pall and his Naturlistic style. I may well also qualify, but I would perfer not to focus on myself here.

The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. Unknown

The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries. All names mentioned have been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, has won significant critical attention, and is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.

You stated "Show me that the contributing "best bonsai artists of our time" at that forum "meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies" (i.e. WP:N and Wikipedia:Notability (people)) and then we can talk."

I have done so, I hope we can now continue the discussion. Will Heath (talk) 20:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

using the source itself to prove that it is reliable? Wikipedias definition of notability: someone/thing has received significant coverage by a reliable third party source.-- The Red Pen of Doom 20:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as mentioned, according to the posted policies, a web site that is not deemed a reliable source can still be allowed if it contains information by very knowledgeable sources. I used actual authors and their articles to show that the site does indeed contain information by very knowledgeable sources, thereby meeting the Wiki requirement. Many of the people I named have won the most prestigious bonsai shows in the world, certainly such world-class exhibits meet the third party requirement.

So far I have shown that the Art of Bonsai Project meets or exceeds the requirements set forth in the Wiki policies. I am not requesting a article on the site, only inclusion in the external links section. Will Heath (talk) 23:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

no you have not. you need third party published material to idicate that the contributors to this forum are notable. -- The Red Pen of Doom 23:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Each time I overcome an objection, you come up with another. The wiki policies are laid out in an either/or format, when I handle an "either" you post an "or." I showed that The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums, or had works in many significant libraries. as requested. Now you want third party published material to attest to these master's reliability?

I have more than shown that the site is allowed according to the policies already, on many fronts, but now You're asking if some of the best bonsaists in the world are reliable? I can't help but to sense a bias here.

Later I may post all the third party sources you could want attesting to the reliability of the individuals I named. At this time I hope the matter can be settled and the link reinstated. Will Heath (talk) 23:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I may not have communicated my concerns in a way that you completely understood, but the basis of my objections have not changed. Your claims that the contributors are "the best bonsaists" does not matter to wikipedia. What matters is that we have verifiable evidence that third parties (or the consensus of the Wikipedia community) have identified these individuals as experts/notable/reliable.

3PO

I think that the page appears to fall under wp:ELYES #4: "other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article". It may not qualify as a source, but has cool pictures of different bonsais. This is not appropriate for "See also", but I notice there are no "External links"... where this would naturally go to help readers find other internet resources on the topic. NJGW (talk) 05:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Added link to the Art of Bonsai Project under newly created "External Links" section. Will Heath (talk) 16:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

That the source contains images that help a readers understanding and that such images would not be appropriate for our article appears to be a valid reason for inclusion as an external link. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Sequoia

This may sound like a joke, but the Sequoia is a conifer, and so can be a candidate for bonsai techniques. Has anybody ever tried bonsai techniques on a Sequoia? How would it turn out? Thanks.~~NotWillRiker

Sequoia are not common as bonsai subjects, but they can indeed be grown as bonsai. As bonsai, they are characterized by fairly thick and tapering trunks with sparse branching. As a result, individual sequoia bonsai look a bit underwhelming. But in multiple-tree styles, their sparse branches and leaves actually work better than many species with heavier or fuller branches and leaves. Our local bonsai grower has a particular attraction for sequoia and always has a half-dozen or more specimens on his greenhouse, invariably in multiple-tree plantings. I believe he acquires his raw material in either Oregon or northern California (USA). I have no photos, unfortunately, but you can find one in The Bonsai Identifier (Gordon Owen, p 99). Scaramouche509 —Preceding undated comment added 23:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC).

Thanks for the info! ~~NotWillRiker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.112.31 (talk) 02:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)