Talk:Bodo Sperling

LLC books

The book I cancelled is shown here [1]. The publisher LLC copies English Wikipedia-articles and publishes them. Look at the Preview of the book, it's the same beginning as in the article mentioned. Excerpt: Alex Katz Alex Katz (born July 24, 1927) is an American figural artist associated with the Pop art movement. In particular, he is known for his paintings , sculptures , and prints . Life and work Alex Katz was born in Brooklyn , New York . In 1928 the family moved to St. Albans, Queens . From 1946 to 1949 he studied at The Cooper Union in New York, and from 1949 to 1950 he studied at the Skowhegan ... . We had the same problem in the German Wikipedia. --Robertsan1 (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

See also Yahoo Answers--Robertsan1 (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

@Robertsan1Have you read the book? --76.76.115.75 (talk) 18:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Absurd argument from Robertsan1. That would mean that WP is not suited as a source. This has to be seen as a private opinion of Robertsan1, and has no support in the WP guidelines. Why a book should not quote texts from the WP is a mystery to me? He can open a policy discussion. --76.76.104.107 (talk) 11:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Apparently Rob has no desire to tell us whether he has read the book. I suggest to wait a couple of days, and then possibly make the edit undo. --94.230.214.239 (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the preview shown in the amazon-link you will see that the LLC opies english Wikipedia-articles. This is allowed of course. But there is no sense to put a book to the references-list that has the exactly the same content as the article itself. The only aim is for a self-promoting artist is to feel better seeing a lot of books in the literature-list. But it is not more content for the reader. If you will undo my edit, I will revert. Regards,--Robertsan1 (talk) 19:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

76.76.104.107, Wikipedia is not suitable as a source. See WP:CIRCULAR: Articles on Wikipedia, or on websites that mirror its content, should not be used as sources, because this would amount to self-reference. Similarly, editors should not use sources that present material originating from Wikipedia to support that same material in Wikipedia, as this would create circular sourcing—Wikipedia citing a source that derives its material from Wikipedia. TFOWR 19:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

TFOWR Thanks for the clarification. But why do Robertsan1 acting as sock puppet of Robertsan? --76.76.104.107 (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Alternative accounts aren't necessarily bad: they're only regarded as bad if they're used to evade blocks, or to mislead. I have an alternative account which I use when I'm away from my main computer, for example - like "Robertsan" and "Robertsan1" there's no attempt to mislead - the two accounts are clearly linked.

My concern with this source is: I can't see whether it is or is not copied from Wikipedia. If it is then we definitely should use it here. However, I've been unable to find out for sure whether it is copied. As it's used as "literature" rather than as a reference, I'd be inclined to say that we just leave it out for the time-being - but if we can determine that it's not copied from Wikipedia it can be added later. TFOWR 20:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I am inclined to buy me an issue. It would be important for the future, make a rule for the distinction. If a book contains text accompanying shares, authorization as a source should be possible. Otherwise we could pulped a whole lot of books. The more serious Wp is taken, the more often ask themselves this question. What do you think TFOWR? --87.236.194.76 (talk) 21:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't buy that book! Books, LLC copy their content from Wikipedia, so it is useless as an independent source. Just read the Wikipedia articles, don't waste your money. Fences&Windows 23:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

@IP:Sorry for using Robertsan1. When I first came to English WP I tried Robertsan, but this was not possible (the text said: user Robertsan already exists.) So I chose Robertsan1, and everybody can see at my page that I am Robertsan in de WP and so I am in German WQ. I will put this statement to my page as well.--Robertsan1 (talk) 10:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Improvements

Hi all,

I came to this page through the admins noticeboard, and have tried to tidy up the article a bit. I think most of the changes I have made are as a result of translating from German to English, and as a native I hope to have improved it a bit, but there are still some areas where editors with greater knowledge could help.

• Objectivism as an artistic idea needs expansion - at the moment my wp search has articles in terms of literature and philosophy, so it's not clear to me what Sperling added with his book.
• Not clear what "manager of the workspace Neurophilosophy at IFSN" is. Looking at Thomas Metzinger page, is it something to do with Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies? Also unclear what Science Arts is.
• Too many refs for the East Side Gallery, can we select two as a maximum?
• It would make sense for the article prose to develop chronologically, but it jumps around a lot. Is there a reason for this?

I need to keep going on the tidy up but will wait for some input from other editors first. Bigger digger (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Bigger digger, You were right, it is the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies, I have changed that. (References East Side streamlined) --62.2.182.245 (talk) 09:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi all, we had troubles in German WP as well. The article w:de:Bodo Sperling was done by a user Bodo Sperling, who said he is the artist. In German WP this user (and later several IPs) tried to define a new kind of art, which he referenced by using philosophers (and not art historians, as usual). So we had a lot of troubles, because the user tried to put "Objectivism" and "objectivism in art" in philosophy-articles and articles of the objectivism writer Ayn Rand. The fine art team in German WP (where I am still working with) had some troubles by fixing the things right. Because we think, a new kind of art is not invented by an artist who says "I call my artwork xy". Every arist could do that. We think, an art criticer or art historian must say that and write about it in a (correctly published, not BOD,LLD...) book. Someone uploaded a file called "crystal...xy, "objectisvism" and put the description of the "objectivism" into the files description. In my eyes it is to get the name "objectivism in art" into Wikiepia through the back door. We had the article in the discussion for deleting, but the founding of the w:de:East Side Gallery makes him important enough. If I can help you with my German and (sorry) not so proper English please let me know.--Robertsan1 (talk) 20:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Critics:

• In 1985 he developed the art direction "Objectivism".[1] There is no art direction "objectivism", Bodo Sperling called his own art in that manner.
• The influence of Amsterdam is not verifiable.
• The text says: he invented Objectivism in 1985. The picture shown is dated 1980 and also called Objectivism.
• a video installation that confronted the viewer with the objective documentation of Spacetime ??? which art historian did ever write about that?
• The basis of his work, he sees in line with research by Rupert Sheldrake and his theory of Morphic field.

(I am also seeing a lot of namedropping when looking at this text.)--Robertsan1 (talk) 20:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Lawoftheart to Robertsan1

Robertsan1 watch out for you, you have removed National Library sources. Why? You have removed the award, the German Federal President has given the makers of the East Side Gallery. As far as I know, Sperling was one of the four initiators of the East Side Gallery in 1990. It was also immediately removed the source of this, very clever! Senate Chancellery from Berlin. You have removed two major References, one of which is the largest European art magazine 'art, why? Is their strategy, cut the articles at a stub in order to explain then the lack of relevance, as they had tried it in Germany? I once If you have a personal dislike for a living person, perhaps because a Jew or objectivist, then please contact us immediately here:WikiProject Biography. As we can see, you now want to change your username? http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Robertsan1 ?...... --Lawoftheart (talk) 11:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Lawoftheart, I have reverted your edits as you have removed Robertsan1's improvements to the article. I will go back and see if some of the sources can be added back, but they don't seem very specific. Also, please comment on edits, not editors - please don't assume to know other people's motivations. I think this article could be a useful one, but we must all ensure it conforms to WP:Verifiability using sources.

In fact, Lawoftheart and Robertsan1, there is a lot of work to do on this article. For a start, I'll need some help on the sources currently in the article, I will list below the ones I don't understand and therefore need help so I can verify them. We need to ensure that Bodo Sperling is notable as per WP:CREATIVE. From my google search, we can source that he was part of the East Side Gallery, which probably makes him notable, but none of the other info listed here is verifiable, it is all just WP:MIRRORS of this page, which is the same problem as the books above. That means there actually isn't very much to say about him. Bigger digger (talk) 14:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources

I list the current sources here and ask for your help as relevant:

1. ^ * VG Bild-Kunst, US 173012 15. February 1985, Author art direction "Objektivism"

Is this a book? Googling 173012 just brings up hits on this article. What is this?

2.Thomas Metzinger:The Artistic Work Bodo Sperling, in: transparency of consciousness, Digital Art Museum, Frankfurt 1997 (catalog)

OK, an exhibition catalogue, good! Bigger digger (talk)

3.folio berlin-art-magazine, August 2010

What is this reference being used to support? Bigger digger (talk)

4.East Side Gallery. Der Spiegel November 05. 2009 5. ^ art -magazin. Art under steaming water. April 07. 2009

These are good as references that Sperling was a founder member of the East Side gallery Bigger digger (talk)

6. ^ Das gefälschte Denkmal - Geschichte simulieren: Warum Berlin das berühmteste Teilstück der Mauer einfach neu bemalen ließ. Peter Geimer - Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Feuilleton 01.12.2009, Nr. 279, S. 34

This appears to be a Google-based wiki and is therefore not a suitable source. Bigger digger (talk)

7. ^ Information about Bodo Sperling, Museum of New Art, Zentrum für Kunst und Medientechnologie Karlsruhe, Germany

There is no information here, it just lists his name, again this doesn't seem like a useful source. Bigger digger (talk)

8. ^ *Hessiale `94, National Art Exhibition Kassel

This reference is a bit meaningless, was it a particular exhibition? Is there any info on the internet about it?Bigger digger ([[User talk:Bigger digger|talk[])

Once we have our sources better understood we can then build a better article. Thanks, Bigger digger (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

1. BILD-KUNST is a collecting society providing copyright protection for artists, photographers and graphic designers in Germany, partner from ARS ARTISTS RIGHTS SOCIETY N.Y. I think "U.S. 173 012 15 February 1985" is the number of the records as the author of Objectivism. --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

3. folio berlin-art-magazine, August 2010 shows in this trailer a recent Preview about Bodo Sperling, founder of Objectivism as art direction. -Scroll down folio --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

4. Der Spiegel November 05. 2009, Der Spiegel is the most significant political magazine in Germany. This article focuses on the rehabilitation of the East Side Gallery, and the resistance of 15 artists around Sperling (GES-founder Initiative East Side), against the destruction of the original images at the Berlin Wall. Der Spiegel November 05. 2009 --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

5. art-Magazin is the most significant art magazine in Europe. In the article the details of the art scandal explained to readers.Art under steam hot water --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

6. Das gefälschte Denkmal - Geschichte simulieren: Warum Berlin das berühmteste Teilstück der Mauer einfach neu bemalen ließ. Peter Geimer - Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Feuilleton 01.12.2009, Nr. 279, S. 34 This is not a Google product. It is an article in one of the three most important newspapers in Germany. 1st "Zeit", second Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, third, Süddeutsche Zeitung. Prof. Dr. Peter Geimer is one of the most renowned art critics in Germany. He teaches at the ETH Zurich in Switzerland. Prof. Dr. Peter Geimer The article was probably set in Google's Knol, so that it accessible to the WP-reader. --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

7. Information about Bodo Sperling, Museum of New Art, Zentrum für Kunst und Medientechnologie Karlsruhe, Germany. This link is actually not helpful. I have it here, artists/Sperling with information about the artist. As is also clear that Sperling is the founder of Objectivism in the art. --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

8. *Hessiale `94, National Art Exhibition Kassel, I found it so: Article on "Hessiale" in art - magazine of today --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

9. The Pleasures within distance: project, Sydney, Australia 1990th. They are evidence of the exhibition in Sydney, (1990 The Pleasures within Distance, WINDOW / Sydney College of the Arts, Sydney, Australia) and because National Library relevant.National Library Australia. ok, that's it, if that is always so stressful with WP, I'd rather go to the movies. Thank you for your help Bigger digger :) --Lawoftheart (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Bodo Sperling was a founder of the East side gallery. That's okay and is well sourced.

Bodo Sperling calles his art "Obejectivism". Every artist may call his art in a way he likes. But an art direction is not established by one artist himself. There must be a notable art historian or art cirticer who wirtes about that in a notable book. And there must be several artists who work in that way, so it gets a direction. See as example Impressionism, cubism or Futurism. There has not been one artist who said "look, I just painted an impressionistic painting!", or "now I make cubism". That's the differnce. --Robertsan1 (talk) 19:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Dear Robertsan1, you're right. Often art movements are defined by art critics. But this is only since the Impressionists. But often were and are art movements proclaimed by the artist himself. The artists are no stupid chickens, waiting for someone to admire their eggs, and then find a name. Here are some examples, and you can believe that there are hundreds:

Example1:One of the pioneers of abstract painting by the French artist Francis Picabia include (1879-1953) and the Russian Wassily Kandinsky (1866-1944), who claims to be his first abstract picture painted in 1911.

Example2:When the Fluxus movement in 1962 in New York by George Maciunas was based, the art direction established by the Wiesbaden Festival latest music in the same year in Germany.

Example3:Synthetism can be understood as a backlash to pointillism. It was founded about 1888 by Paul Gauguin, Émile Bernard, Louis Anquetin and other artists of the so-called school of Pont-Aven. Known it was prompted by an exhibition at the Paris Café Volpini, by Gauguin to the World Exhibition of 1889.

Example4:Transautomatism (Latin trans - on, auto-self) is a technology developed by Friedensreich Hundertwasser art direction, which is based mainly on the capital subscribed by him spirals.

Example5:As a Nazarene art romantic-religious art direction is referred to at the beginning of the 19th Century German artists founded in Vienna and Rome.

Example6:Gian-Emilio Malerba (November 27, 1880 in Milan, † March 1926) was an Italian painter and the founder of the art direction Novecento.

Example7:Concept Art (English Conceptual Art) is one in the 1960s by the American artist Sol LeWitt coined name, for art direction.

Example7:Anselmo Bucci (born May 1887 in Fossombrone; † November 19, 1955 in Monza) was an Italian painter, graphic artist and writer and one of the founders of the art direction Novecento.

Example8:Hermann Obrist (born May 27, 1862 in Kilchberg in Zurich, Switzerland, † February 26, 1927 in Munich) was a sculptor and one of the founders of Art Nouveau.

Example9:Sidore Isou (Ioan-Isidor Goldstein 1925 in Botosani in the southern Bukovina (Romania); † July 28, 2007 in Paris) was a French author and the mid-40s of the twentieth century, the founder of the art direction Lettrism.

Example10:Geoffrey Bardon (born 1940 in Sydney; † 6 May 2003 in Taree in Australia) was an artist who is considered to be art teachers as the cause of the most important modern art of the Aborigines, the dot-painting in Papunya, the Punktemalens.

Example11:On 11 October 1963 organized Gerhard Richter and Konrad Lueg in a furniture store in Düsseldorf mountain (Flingerstraße 11) an exhibition that was opened with the action "Life with Pop - A Demonstration for Capitalist Realism" by the two artists. [1] The term "as counterpoint to the Socialist Realism should be chosen to expose ironic the marked consumption and leisure of West German "real" capitalism of the 50s and 60s. (The source for this is the WP!) Thanks --Lawoftheart (talk) 21:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Please notice: WP:WWIN especially original thought. --Robertsan1 (talk) 10:56, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Mentioned at BLP/N

I have reported this article at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Bodo_Sperling as I am not sure it is currently suitable for an article, or how reliable some of the sources are thst are used. I don't think the editors currently involved here have sufficient knowledge and/or distance from the subject to edit in line with policy (I cover myself in both of those!). Bigger digger (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Not sure how many of Bodo Sperling (talk · contribs)'s original edits remain in the article but there's a clear COI problem here also.. -- œ^™ 09:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Weblinks, sources

@editing IPs: Remember WP:WEB. Please do not use blogs or social networks as a source. --Robertsan (talk) 19:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi I do not see facebook link, what do you mean? And if block, so you have the English link: http://www.videor-art-foundation.com/_de/ausstellungen/1997_sperling.html also deleted, and changed against the German Link? It's more sensible to use English links here I think. --94.230.214.229 (talk) 20:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Robertsan is not going to do it on purpose, he is after all a beginner. --Lawoftheart (talk) 21:38, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

One may count my edits in German WP and then the edits of Lawoftheart. It will be seen who is the beginner. Regards--Robertsan (talk) 05:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Robertsan, I observe the procedures already some time. That makes headache for me. Please what did you want to aim at as experienced Juser with this Edith? --91.214.168.197 (talk) 20:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Ask

Are there any ambiguities in the article that should be clarified? Lawoftheart (talk) 23:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

template

I have fixed the issue and the template removed. Fact is, Sperling has been awarded the 4th International André Evard Audience Award, a recognized objective art prize. There is in my opinion no other reason for the template from of 2010. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.188.116.142 (talk) 15:44, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

@Freshacconci

Thanks for the note. I'm new to Wikipedia, which must be checked in order to make a side clearance correctly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.188.116.142 (talk) 18:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

clean up

I write as an art historian on the subject of science in the visual arts. Bodo Sperling is one of the treated artist who got me interested in following article in Wikipedia. I hope I have not messed up.

@Bigger digger, @Lawoftheart, @Freshacconci, @Robertsan1, @76.76.115.75, @87.236.194.76, @talk, @76.76.104.107, @62.2.182.245, @94.230.214.239,

I once tried the controversial points 1-8 pick by Bigger, and respond. In my search is 1. VG Bild-Kunst an artist development company that oversees the copyrights. It is not a book, Bigger digger. I have this Edit nevertheless removed as irrelevant. http://www.bildkunst.de/en/vg-bild-kunst/about-vg-bild-kunst.html

Point 2 concerns a exhibition catalog from 1997, on the occasion of the Arts award to Bodo Sperling in the state Kunsthalle Hamburg, Germany.

3. folio berlin art-magazine to which I could only find an art magazine for the space N.Y.C.,https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aaronkass/folio-a-different-arts-magazine, have no idea if this is relevant, have therefore removed the Edith.

Point 4 and 5 has been found by Bigger digger. ART Magazine is an art magazine in Germany. http://www.art-magazin.de/szene/7798-rtkl-mauerkunst-berlin-kunst-unter-wasserdampf The article in ART and in the German newspaper Spiegel concerns about Bodo Sperling founding the East Side Gallery in Berlin, and the Scandal by the Senate of Berlin. See also: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/East_Side_Gallery

The link: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/staedte/eroeffnung-der-east-side-gallery-bruderkuss-in-alter-frische-a-659579.html works well again.

6. This is about the case of the Berlin Wall, and the emergence of the East Side Gallery 1989/1990. The fake monument - simulate story: why Berlin had just re-paint the most famous section of the wall. Peter Geimer -. Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Feuilleton 01.12.2009, No. 279, page 34, is an article on the conflict between Bodo Sperling and the Senate of Berlin. The Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is an international newspaper. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Frankfurter_Allgemeine_Zeitung Professor Dr. Peter Geimer has a chair in the Department of History and Cultural Studies at the Kunsthistorisches Institut of the Free University of Berlin. On the side of the university is the reference to the article to find in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. See also: Dealing with History | pressespiegel. - de http://www.geschkult.fu-berlin.de/e/khi/mitarbeiter-gaeste/professoren/geimer/geimer_publikationen/artikel_in_tageszeitungen/ I found a reference on publications of Professor Dr. Peter Geimer, about what happened to the wall pictures as a memorial, in 1990 and 2009 respectively. https://pressespiegel.zeitgeschichte-online.de/taxonomy/term/186/all?title=&page=556 Why Berlin had just re-paint the most famous section of the wall. Peter Geimer -. Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Feuilleton 01.12.2009, No. 279, p 34 is, sufficiently proved. For this purpose, I found that the East Side Gallery is apparently under state conservation. So here is not just about a Google-based wiki, but historical fact. I removed this false link to wiki.

7. The ZKM is a great Museum of Modern Art in Karlsruhe, Germany. The work of Bodo Sperling are part in the inventory of the collection of the ZKM. http://zkm.de/en/people?title_op=contains&title=sperling&field_lastname_value=S&sort_bef_combine=field_lastname_value+ASC http://zkm.de/en/person/bodo-sperling

8. Hessiale `94, National Art Exhibition Kassel can be found here. It is a series of different exhibitions from 1979 - 2002 of the Federal Association of visual artists whose press Talk Bodo Sperling was. However, here is an error, the exhibition was in 1994 not in Kassel, but the Landesmuseum Wiesbaden, Germany. Appropriate Link added together. http://www.hessiale.de/outerframe-archiv.html

regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.16.84.185 (talk) 21:59, 17 September 2016 (UTC)