Talk:Blood in the Water match

Tarantino

As I saw it in posters in Hungary, the saying from Tarantino was: "the best story I've never been told". (I bolded the difference) Misibacsi 17:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Radio Free Europe says "ever" but that could be wrong if you can find another source.--Moonlight Mile 09:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Here I found it: [[1]]

3c) FREEDOM'S FURY

COLD WAR TALE TOLD AT LAST By RICHARD JOHNSON with PAULA FROELICH and CHRIS WILSON

April 29, 2006 -- DOWNTOWN nightclub Salon was packed Thursday night with a non- left-leaning crowd that had its mind on a fight for freedom that's finally getting overdue attention. Andrew Vajna's "Freedom's Fury," which screened at the Tribeca Film Festival, tells the harrowing story of the bloody clash at the 1956 Olympics, when Soviet-Hungarian tensions exploded during a water polo match, shortly after the U.S.S.R. had crushed the Hungarian revolt. Earlier in the week, Rudy Giuliani, at a Manhattan Institute dinner honoring Tom Wolfe, raved about the "riveting" movie, which was co-produced by Quentin Tarantino, Lucy Liu, Megan Raney, Colin Gray and human-rights campaigner Thor Halvorssen. Tarantino calls it "the best story never told." A poster featuring the iconic Cold War image of Hungarian Olympic water polo player Ervin Zador with blood streaming down from his swimcap stood as the only visual cue of the party's theme. Zador himself sat in a corner, but at least two attendees pushed their way through to talk to him: radio legend Barry Farber, who personally pulled Hungarians to freedom in boats across the Einsner canal after the crushed uprising in Budapest 1956, and Gi-Hong Zang, the only North Korean veteran to become a U.S. citizen. Zang, who became a Hamptons architect, named his daughter Ulla after Farber's ex-wife. The story of the Farber- Zang friendship that began in a refugee camp in Budapest will be featured in a Swedish TV documentary in May.
Misibacsi 06:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The same quote at New York Post online edition: [[2]]
Misibacsi 07:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

From Blood In The Water match to Controversy in the 1956 Summer Olympics Water Polo Semi Final, because of POV entitling. Could someone verify that this event is labelled with this "fabled" name outside Hungary (in other words in English)? Any ideas? I won't move it unless concensus is reached.

• Rename - per nom. Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 17:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
• Don't rename - it is referred to as this on the Freedom's Fury website, this one, also this one, also this one and this one. Controversy in the 1956 Summer Olympics Water Polo Semi Final is very wordy when a succinct alternative is available. --Moonlight Mile 21:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Still I think it is unencyclopedic.Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 23:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Also Sports Illustrated (the only notable source among those above) uses it as "remembered by some", smh.com as a picture caption not giving the intent of a more general use ("[There was] blood in the water"), webenetics.com calls it "legendary" and "one of the most famous water polo matches in history", which is undoubtly POV, and ooh Freedom's Fury official site is nothing else but a movie promotion webpage (thus won't pass Wikipedia:Citing sources criteria). Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 23:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

'Blood in the Water' was a name coined by the worldwide media just like Watergate scandal, Velvet Revolution or Six-Day war. The convention in wikipedia as I understand it is to name an article so that it is easily recognisable by the majority of English speakers. I'm just suggesting that the majority of English speakers know this match by the name 'Blood in the Water match' just as the majority of Hungarians know it by 'Melbourne-i vérfürdő' (I assume). I take your point though and would be interested to see what other people think.--Moonlight Mile 00:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I would really like to see a Time, Le Figaro or Le Monde article from the 50's which names it like this. In that case I would really step back from renaming.Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 01:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to vote for not move, as the English page was written before the Hungarian, so its naming was not influenced by it. In Hungarian its known as "Melbourne massacre" (Melbourne-i vérfürdő), but it didn't get that big of a media attention until recently if I'm not mistaken, due to political reasons. Also I wouldn't call it a controversy... And Moonlight Mile that no one would look for this article under Controversy in the 1956 Summer Olympics Water Polo Semi Final , even after seeing the Freedom's Fury film or that new one by Andrew Vajna.--Dami 00:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that chronology is not the subject of solution here as it was Moonlight Mile who created the page, and we can read his/her reasons above. I'm not sure about his nationality neither to decide whether English speakers recognize this article under its "alias".Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 01:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm English!--Moonlight Mile 02:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"...I wouldn't call it a controversy" - we can call it violence though.Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 10:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose the move, for two reasons: the current title is good and the proposed one is not (both too long and also incorrect - what happened was in no way a "controversy"). BTW, "one of the most famous water polo matches in history" is just as verifiable as is the fact that Maradona scored the greatest goal ever in the history of FIFA World Cups. KissL 13:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"The top 10 goals, as decided by the poll, were:" - okay was there any poll in this special case? That list with Maradona has a basis to rely on. In this very article there's nothing more than a match, which gained publicity in 1956 and gains now. It doesn't make it the "most", the "best", the "one". I think every nation has a (water polo) match, which is remebered in their own countries for patriotic reasons. But naming them the "French victory of all", "the Germans beated the world", "The craziest fight of the Albanians" is simply POV. The same reason do I want to not only focus on the blood matters of the event (also as stated in the article it is questioned whether the water actually turned red or is just a heroic souvenir in the minds of the people). Lajbi ^{Holla @ me} 15:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is saying the water actually turned red. We're talking about what the match is called in English, and "Blood in the Water match" is what it is called. Even though this may be considered "incorrect", this is not sufficient reason to use a different title. As an extreme example, you don't want to move the Hundred Years' War to Hundred and Sixteen Years' War, do you? KissL 09:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose the rename, not because I know anything about water polo or whether it really was the greatest match ever, but just because it seems to me that "Blood in the Water Match" is common parlance. I am always for using the vernacular.....it's like "revolution" vs. "uprising", remember, guys? ;) K. Lastochka 02:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose the rename. This is a well known phrase. Also, the "Controversy..." title would be terribly long. – Alensha ^talk 22:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - all have been said above. --VinceB 17:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably an exaggeration

The picture of Zádor looks like he was bleeding quite a lot so it seems likely that some of the water turned red around him, visibly for the other players. Whether this was even visible from a distance (i.e., for the spectators) is something we don't know – "probably not" is a safe bet. Certainly nobody is saying the entire pool turned red. KissL 09:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Match" section

Re: "Following the Olympics, half of the 100-member Hungarian Olympic delegation defected."

As someone who is reasonably intelligent, but does not know about Hungarian politics, I'm not sure what exactly this is saying.

Half of the Olympic delegation defected to.... what? Russia? The U.S.? Random countries?

Regardless of to whom they defected, this seems completely contrary to the fact stated just before it, that they had won a gold medal.

Therefore, I'm confused about the significance of this (maybe it should just be in a new paragraph?).

Also, is this fact (the original quote) common knowledge enough that it doesn't need to be cited?

Jabberwockgee (talk) 20:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering no one has responded in several months I'll go ahead and remove that portion as it cites no sources. Xenocide^{Talk|Contributions} 00:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

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