Talk:Björn (Swedish king 829)

Adam of Bremen

Adam's history is avalible online in Swedish from Litteraturbanken. The only account he gives of Eric is on this page. There is nothing about any relationship to any other king. Neither is there in the vita. There is an online version which has a note by the editor given in the text, but it is clearly marked as such.

Andejons (talk) 13:17, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes here I did a mistake sorry I meant

"furthermore, if you desire to have more gods and we do not suffice, we will agree to summon your former King Eric [I.e. Eric III, the predecessor of Biörn] to join us so that he may be one of the gods." Predecessor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.227.81.54 (talk • contribs)

The brackets means that it is a note inserted by the editor. It is not in the original text. And the note does not say anything about how the kings were related either.

Andejons (talk) 16:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Still, it says former king or predecessor I fixed all the things you mentioned. So that it became exactly what stood in the sources. If you worship your king Eric as a god. You probably wanna elect one of his sons as the next king.

Problems

The source[1] does not support the statement "Eric the Victorious, generally considered to be Sweden's first king", and the source[2] does not say anything like " Attempts have been made to identify the king with the legendary figure Björn at Haugi, but these attempts have to be considered unverifiable and unreliable". These are very serious misrepresentations and the main reason for this article appears to be to disconnect Rimbert's account from Icelandic sources. I really wonder why we have to have two articles for one person, or two persons who are deeply interconnected in scholarly literature.--Berig (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

I edited these articles a while ago because I perceived them to lend undue weight to nationalist ideas of ancient Swedish kings based on non-contemporary Icelandic sources and not corroborated by current academic understanding (not mainly focused on this specific figure, who is not very ancient, but still one of the pre-Segersäll kings). I fully recognize that I went overboard a bit and I have resolved not to edit anything on this subject again because clearly I'm also bringing my own POV into it. If the 829 Björn and Björn at Haugi are "deeply interconnected in scholarly literature" there should be no problem with finding enough reliable sources to support merging the two articles so anyone's good to go in tracking those sources down and using them. Ichthyovenator (talk) 08:48, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I have a hard time reading "nationalism" into these things, but everybody is different. BTW, in legendary sources, the Swedes tend to be the bad guys, and they often die disgracefully, so the treatment is hardly flattering for Swedish nationalists. I have asked Yngvadottir to have a go at this topic. If she accepts it, the coverage will be greatly improved.--Berig (talk) 08:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I recognize that I went overboard. My main concern was with the list of legendary kings, which before I edited it (not that my edit does not also have it's share of neutrality and style issues) included invented regnal dates, no indication that many of the figures were rarely taken as "real" by mainstream historians and even a citation to a self-published book by Lars Ulwencreutz who is a (far?)-right nationalist that believes the line of legendary kings is 100 % real. Wanting Sweden to seem older than it is through a line of fictional kings beginning with Odin feels like nationalism to me (though this is mainly because I see it being used by nationalists), but I can also see that interest in the legendary kings can stem from genuine historical curiosity concerning what might have happened before the textual historical records begin. The edits to more well-established figures (as this Björn very well could be) were an unfortunate consequence of my inappopriate personal crusade against this stuff. I'm sure another editor will do a great job at fixing this up and presenting a more balanced account. Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I've checked some literature: Dick Harrison discusses Rimbert's kings in Sveriges historia: 600-1350, but does not mention Björn at haugi or Anund Uppsale (a reposted version of the text, with some cuts that are not relevant to this discussion, is available here). The same can be said of Mats G. Larsson in Svitjod – Resor till Sveriges ursprung, despite him otherwise taking a generally positive view of the sagas as historical sources (he does not discuss these kings in such detail, however). Peter Sawyer in När Sverige blev Sverige does say that the names in the sagas are based on historical kings, but also that the resemblance ends there. In an older article, Sune Lindkvist in Svenskt bibliografiskt lexikon is more accepting of the Icelandic material, but still makes a clear distinction between it and Rimbert's account in favor of the latter.

Andejons (talk) 10:59, 2 August 2021 (UTC)