Talk:Bible college

Sources for information

Much content was removed from this article with notes that it was unsourced or that the reference (particularly the Canadian Encyclopedia) did not support the claim. The problem seems to be that the citation to the Canadian Encyclopedia is to an article that is split across several webpages (with only 2 or 3 paragraphs on each page). Use the "next" button in the lower right hand corner to read the full article, or get the printer-friendly version at http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Params=A1ARTA0000721 --orlady 19:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Good call; you might want to specify in your notes which page the information is on. The biggest detractor to use of TCE is that it is an encyclopedia about Canada. Can you find information in a more broad source? Otherwise, you might have to put that information under a subheading just about Canada. I know it's annoying, but those are the joys of being able to cite something well, and you'll find a lot of articles that need to break up subjects by nation and region simply because of the relevance of the info. What do you think? Aepoutre 20:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There is NOTHING I wrote in this article that did not have a source. I have very little personal knowledge of Bible colleges, so I was not writing from personal knowledge. I do not see a need to add a source citation for every sentence in an article like this one, as the content is generally uncontroversial. Furthermore, many sentences were synthesized based on information from multiple sources. The primary sources for the history section were The Canadian Encyclopedia, the ABHE, and http://www.spabc.com.au/history.htm (History of the South Pacific Association of Bible Colleges). Note that these sources are geographically diverse: Canada, US, and Australasia. In some instances, multiple sources made almost identical statements. --orlady 03:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed information explanation

The Bible-centered curriculum (the Bible is, in fact, the textbook for many courses)

The referenced material says This Bible-centred curriculum (the Bible is, in fact, the "textbook"), in which textbook is in quotes, and does not state that the Bible is THE textbook for many courses, but that the curriculum is based on the Bible. Perhaps a real referenced quote would be safer.

is augmented by structured programs requiring students to participate regularly in Christian service.

This is taken verbatim from the reference and not quoted, which is commonly known as plagiarism and contrary to Wikipedia policy of "cutting and pasting" information.

Bible colleges produce a large percentage of North American evangelical missionaries and serve as a primary training center for local church leadership.

While I may be wrong, I cannot find this information in the source, making it unreferenced as earlier described.

Aepoutre 21:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The removed sentence "Bible colleges produce a large percentage of North American evangelical missionaries and serve as a primary training center for local church leadership" actually appears to have been based primarily on http://www.abhe.org/history.htm, which says "In the late nineteenth century, a movement began that has had a profound influence on evangelical Protestantism. Its impact has been felt in every part of the world, producing a large percentage of North American evangelical missionaries and serving as a primary training center for local church leadership. This religious development was the Bible institute movement, which later evolved into the Bible college movement." --orlady 03:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, http://www.spabc.com.au/history.htm states "More than fifty per cent of all Protestant missionaries in the world today are graduates of the Bible Colleges."--orlady 04:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Many Bible schools and colleges have a direct denominational affiliation, but many others are interdenominational. Most of these institutions emphasize (or originally emphasized) biblical prophecy from a premillennial and dispensational point of view. Faith groups and denominations that operate or are affiliated with bible colleges include Mennonites, Pentecostalists, Holiness churches, Independent Baptists and other Baptist groups, Churches of Christ, Churches of God, the Missionary Church, and the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

This is dealt with under the intro paragraph, where it is established that many Bible colleges have these affiliations. I have added a note with a list of example denominations. There is no need, nor cause, for such a list in the body of an article. Aepoutre 21:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Specifically, you have inserted the following into the first paragraph:

Most bible colleges are affiliated as evangelical Protestant and their primary purpose is to prepare people for roles in Christian ministry.

I view the wording "affiliated as evangelical Protestant" as inaccurate, since "evangelical Protestant" is not an affiliation (nor a denomination), but rather is a general label for a variety of faith groups. Furthermore, some of the faith groups (e.g., Independent Baptists and some Restoration Movement churches) that are strongest as supporters/sponsors of Bible colleges reject the label "Protestant", and some are groups that are adamantly non-"affiliated" -- each congregation is independent. Furthermore, it appears to me, as an outsider, that not all "evangelical Protestant" denominations have embraced the Bible college concept. Accordingly, I prefer the wording I used that "Bible colleges are associated primarily with evangelical Protestant denominations" (note that "associated" does not mean the same thing as "affiliated"), and I find it informative for the article (not a footnote) to state that some Bible colleges are interdenominational and to include a list of examples of denominations that support Bible colleges. In formal writing I prefer not to construct sentences with run-on-sentence wording like "and their primary purpose is to prepare people for roles in Christian ministry," and (coming to the topic as someone relatively ignorant about the topic) I think that an informative encyclopedia article ought to provide explanatory wording about what kinds of "Christian ministry" a Bible college prepares a person for, namely "including the ordained ministry, missionary service, and religious education." As for the footnote, I am dismayed by your decision to cite The Canadian Encyclopedia as "TCE," since that initialism means nothing to me in this context. (In my world, TCE is usually trichloroethylene. In this article, my best guess would be "The Catholic Encyclopedia.")--orlady 03:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess you eviscerated the following paragraph because I did not provide you with separate reference citations for every detail in it. I spent a lot of time compiling (from multiple sources) and synthesizing the information in this paragraph:

The Association for Biblical Higher Education, which accredits many bible colleges, traces the origins of the bible college movement to the late 19th century bible institute movement, when bible education programs were established to provide Biblical study and practical training to prepare people for work in overseas missions and other ministries. Institutions founded in that era included the interdenominational East London Institute for Home and Foreign Missions (later known as Harley House) in England, founded in 1873 by Henry Grattan Guinness; the Missionary Training Institute (now Nyack College) in Nyack, New York, started in 1882 by Rev. A. B. Simpson, founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance; Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, founded by evangelist and businessman Dwight L. Moody in 1886; the Boston Missionary Training School (now Gordon College) in 1889; Angas College (no longer in existence) in Adelaide, Australia, founded by Presbyterian minister Rev. W. Lockhart Morton in 1893; the School of the Evangelists (now Johnson Bible College) in Tennessee, founded in 1893 by Ashley S. Johnson; and Toronto Bible Training School (the forerunner of Tyndale University College and Seminary) in Toronto in 1894.

Note, however, that I did reject some details that were provided in one or more of the cited sources, as there were statements about the subsequent history of some schools that did not check out as valid against the schools' own histories. Also, I did list a citation to the entire http://www.spabc.com.au/ website, whereas you probably would prefer to cite http://www.spabc.com.au/history.htm --orlady 04:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

References mentioned in the above discussion:

Correct. See WP:VERIFY, specifically, WP:BURDEN, which states: "Editors should cite sources fully, providing as much publication information as possible, including page numbers when citing books." The more precise you are when citing, the better for verifiability, which is the subject of a Wikipedia policy. Also, in light of your comment above, "I spent a lot of time compiling (from multiple sources) and synthesizing the information in this paragraph," you might want to see WP:OWN and WP:NOR. Perhaps neither of these apply, but it's always helpful to remember both when editing. For one, it's not so much about the time and effort we put in to editing Wikipedia as it is about the quality of those edits. In essence, if it isn't good enough then it isn't good enough, so make it better and don't take it personally. :) As for research, you can see from Wikipedia policy that isn't so much about the research as it is about having verifiable sources. Otherwise, original research would be hailed as a triumph, rather than contrary to policy. --Aepoutre (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

I may be an unregistered wikipedian but I feel my concerns are valid. There are great many assumptions made ion the first paragraph of the article. I am not sure the auther is doing enough thorough, non-biased, scholarly reserach. This is also evidenced by the about discussion on the talk page. The main issue for me is the assumptions made about curriculum but no substantiation. I have found 2 Bible Colleges that have a 2-4 course systematic theology curriculum. http://www.cbcag.edu/downloads/catalog.pdf page 91 for example or perhaps http://zbc.edu/documents/academic_catalog.pdf Pages 70-17. I am of the belief that the article posted be accurate and researched done well or be taken down and adjusted. This is, and I subscribe to it, the Jimmy Wales philosophy.

This is important because this article was being used as a reference link that was cited on a specfic bible colleges wikipedia article. That college does actually teach a systematic theology and also has a science course in the academic catalog. --User:Unregistered 09:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.25.36.62 (talk)

The removal of the theology statement is fine. It was unsourced in the article, and it's entirely within your right. I respect that you'd like to talk about it rather than edit war. It was, I believe, part of the seminary article before I created a separate bible college article, so I just ported it over. I thought someone might find a source for it at one point, as it seemed to make some sense, but your rationale for removing unsourced material is justified, especially in light of your discoveries. As for your concerns, because they are related to one specific school, I'd say that you have just as much a stake in this as whoever first created that content. The complaint is one of verifiability, not NPOV. I'll remove the tag. --Aepoutre (talk) 17:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

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