Talk:Bianca Jagger

More content

This does need more content, not simply a redirect. I mean, her name is practically synonymous with Studio 54. Mike H 11:02, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Sure! If you have information that justifies an independent article, than please add and it change the redirect to a simple link. As the article stands, her only claim to fame is being the ex-wife of a celebrity (information that was already in the original article.) Sander123 10:48, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The redirect is a bad idea as it creates a loop in the Mick Jagger article. It would be better to delete the page then. RodC 23:04, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC). Update: I've put a little more info and restored the article. RodC

-- how about reference to her in Barry Fey book, how much a snob she was , and a bitch. ?????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.140.206 (talk) 05:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage.

That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:56, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity

She is of Portuguese, Italian, Spanish and Aztec descent. Her ethnicity is not only Portuguese. And she is born 1950 not 1945. In one interview heard I that she is born 1950. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.252.42.205 (talk) 17:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Bill Wyman says in his autobiography "Stone Alone" that Bianca was born in 1945!! Mick Jagger biographer Christopher Andersen also says 1945. jeanne (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)Also the Aztecs were in Mexico not Nicaragua.She claims Indian ancestry and it's doubtless true, but it couldn't be Aztec.

Bianca Jagger was soooo not born in 1950. That would have made her barely 21 when she married Mick Jagger. Not only that, but she had already attended the Sorbonne and lived with Michael Caine. 21, I think not. Most accounts I have read put her birth year as 1945, which would make her a more realistic 25 when she married Mick.Kyhutch (talk) 17:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

This http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/18/AR2007101801683.html ( dated just short of a year ago) says she is sixty-two. So you are probably close on the date of birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.191.157.40 (talk) 07:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Some possibly useful information

(Offered by the subject of this article to help us improve it)

In 1983, Bianca Jagger was awarded an Honorary Doctorate of Humanities degree by Stone Hill College in Massachusetts for “her work on behalf of human rights.”

In 1994, Bianca Jagger was awarded the United Nations Earth Day International Award for “her successful efforts to protect the livelihood of the indigenous peoples of Latin America, stopping the rain forest destruction in Nicaragua and Honduras.”

On February 29, 1996, Bianca Jagger received the Hispanic Federation of New York City’s Humanitarian Award “in recognition for her courageous engagement on issues of justice and human rights around the globe.”

On March 28, 1996, Bianca Jagger was named “1996 Woman of the Year by Boys Town of Italy for her “unswerving efforts on behalf of children’s rights from all parts of the world.”

On June 29, 1996, Bianca Jagger was the recipient of the Abolitionist of the Year Award presented to her on behalf of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty for “her tireless efforts and heroic dedication in achieving clemency for Guinevere Garcia.”

On May 12, 1997, Bianca Jagger was the recipient of the Green Globe Award by the Rainforest Alliance for “her extraordinary conservation efforts and achievements over the past ten years.”

On September 23, 1997, Bianca Jagger was the recipient of Amnesty International USA Media Spotlight Award for Leadership. “In recognition for her work on behalf of human rights around the world, exposing and focusing attention on injustice.”

On November 1, 1997, Bianca Jagger was inducted to The Hall of Fame in Miami Children’s Hospital Foundation for “championing human rights and children’s causes around the globe.”

On November 15, 1998, Bianca Jagger was awarded The American Civil Liberties Union Award for her “passionate devotion to international human rights, opposition to capital punishment and the promotion of civil rights.”

On November 4, 2000, Bianca Jagger received a Champion of Justice Award for her work as “a steadfast and eloquent advocate for the elimination of the death penalty in America”.

On December 15, 2003 Bianca Jagger received the International Award from International Services for “Her Commitment to the Eradication of Human Rights Abuses.

On 16 December 2003 Bianca Jagger was appointed Council of Europe Goodwill Ambassador “For the Fight against the Death Penalty”

On June 9 2004 Bianca Jagger received the World Achievement Award from President Gorbachev for “Her Worldwide Commitment to Human Rights, Social and Economic Justice and Environmental Causes”

On December 9 Bianca Jagger received The Right Livelihood Award, known as The Alternative Nobel Prize in Stockholm for: Putting her celebrity at the service of the exploited and disadvantaged. The Jury recognizes “her long-standing commitment and dedicated campaigning over a wide range of issues of human rights, social justice and environmental protection, including the abolition of the death penalty, the prevention of child abuse, and the rights of indigenous peoples to the environment that supports them and the prevention and healing of armed conflicts.”

On October 28 2006 Bianca Jagger received The World Citizenship Award from The Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, previous recipients are Ted Turner, Queen Noor of Jordan, Harry Belafonte and the Mayors for Peace organisation headed by the mayors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

On November 12 2006 Bianca Jagger received the Office of the Americas Peace and Justice Award for 2006, “For her bravery, eloquence and strength of convictions”

More possibly useful information

I quote this here. It is the official biography of the subject of this article, offered to me with an interest in helping us improve the article:

Bianca Jagger is an International renowned Human rights advocated; she is the Council of Europe Goodwill Ambassador and Chair of the World Future Council? For approximately 25 years, Bianca Jagger, has campaigned for human rights, social and economic justice and environmental protection throughout the world.

Bianca Perez-Mora Macias was born in Managua Nicaragua in 1950, as a teenager, Ms Jagger observed the terror Somoza’s National Guard inflicted on the civilian population. She felt powerless since all she could do was participate in student demonstrations to protest against their massacres. From a young age she witnessed what John F Kennedy defined as the harshest “common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease and war”. In the mid-sixties she left her native country armed with a French Government scholarship to study Political Science in Paris.

In 1971, she married Mick Jagger. A year later she returned to Nicaragua to look for her parents after a devastating earthquake, which destroyed Managua, the capital, leaving a toll of more than 10,000 deaths and tens of thousands homeless. Although the country received millions of dollars of relief aid from the international community- including 60 million dollars from the US government - thousands were left without medical assistance, food or shelter. Instead, the funds ended up in President Anastasio Somoza’s private bank accounts. It was this ruthless act of pillage that eventually fuelled the Sandinista Revolution.

1979 was the year of her divorce. It coincided with the fall of Somoza. The Sandinistas succeeded in ousting the tyrant. Ms Jagger joined forces with the British Red Cross to raise funds for the victims of the conflict and flew to Nicaragua to join the International Red Cross and help on the ground.

Two years later, in 1981, Ms Jagger travelled to Central America, as part of a US Congressional fact-finding mission to visit Colomoncagua, a UN refugee camp in Honduran territory. During her visit an armed death squad marched across the border from El Salvador, entered the camp and rounded up about 40 refugees. They tied their thumbs behind their backs and proceeded to take them across the border to El Salvador, with the Honduran army’s blessing. Ms Jagger, the delegation, as well as the relief workers and the captives’ families decided to chase after them. They ran along a dry river bed for about half an hour, armed only with cameras, they took photographs during the chase. They all feared that the death squads were going to kill the refugees once they arrived in Salvadorian territory. Finally, they came within earshot; the death squad turned around, pointing their M-16's at them. They began to shout “you will have to kill us all” and “we will denounce your crime to the world". There was a long silence. Then, the death squads talked among themselves and without explanation, they turned around leaving the refugees behind. The refugees were released, unharmed.

This suspended moment in time was a turning point in Ms Jagger’s life. She realised the importance of being a witness when innocent people’s lives are at stake and how a small act of courage can save them and make a difference.

Upon her return to the US, Ms Jagger testified before The Congressional Subcommittee on Inter American Affairs, to bring attention to the atrocities committed by the Salvadoran government and its paramilitary forces with the complicity of the Honduran Government.

During the eighties, Ms Jagger began her long association with several international human rights organisations, most notably with Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the Washington Office for Latin America. She was awarded an honorary Humanities Degree by Stone Hill College, Massachusetts, in 1983 for her work on behalf of human rights in Latin America.

In the nineties, as part of her continuing human rights and environmental efforts, Ms. Jagger began her campaign on behalf of indigenous populations in Latin America, and her commitment to help save the tropical rain forests of the Western Hemisphere. Her efforts brought her to Nicaragua, Honduras, and Brazil. In 1991 her efforts proved instrumental in stopping a logging concession which would have endangered the Miskito Indians’ habitat on the Atlantic coast of Nicaragua. A few years later Ms Jagger petitioned the Brazilian Federation Courts to demarcate and protect the lands of the Guarani peoples of Brazil, and in 1994, participated in a similar effort to protect the Yanomami people of Northern Brazil from invasions of their lands by gold miners who polluted the water, causing many deaths among this ancient tribe. The Yanomami are often threatened by rich and unscrupulous land-owners who covet their land. In recognition for her efforts, she was presented the 1994 United Nations Earth Day International award. And in 1997, she was the recipient of the Green Globe award by the Rain Forest Alliance, “for her extraordinary conservation efforts and achievements over the past ten years”.

In 1993, Ms. Jagger travel to the former Yugoslavia to document the mass rape of Bosnian women by Serbian forces as part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing. In July 1995, the United Nations “safe area” of Srebrenica in Bosnia was overrun by Bosnian Serb troops. Some 8,000 civilians, virtually the entire male population, were systematically massacred. Since then, Ms. Jagger has been speaking on behalf of the survivors. For many years she campaigned to stop the genocide taking place in Bosnia and later to make the perpetrators accountable before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). She has testified on this issue before the Helsinki Commission on Human Rights, the United States Congressional Human Rights Caucus, the International Operations Subcommittee on Human Rights, and the British and European Parliaments. From 1993 to 1996, she evacuated 22 children out of Bosnia to receive medical care in the United States. She personally evacuated two gravely ill children, Sabina and Mohamed. Sadly Sabina did not survive the evacuation trip and died in Croatia. Mohamed underwent a successful heart operation in New York; he lived with Ms Jagger in the US for a year and then went back to Bosnia to be with his parents. She wrote a decisive essay J’accuse: the Betrayal of Srebrenica, a detailed account of the massacre of Srebrenica, which was published world-wide, among others by: The European, in the United Kingdom, Courier International and Juriste International in France and Panorama, in Italy.

In July 1998, Ms Jagger travel to Kosovo with a BBC crew from the program Newsnight. Their aim was to record war crimes perpetrated against the ethnic Albanians, or ‘Kosovars’, who lived in the province and constituted 90% of its population. Repression was the Kosovars daily reality at the time of Ms Jagger’s visit. Serbian military and paramilitary troops had been systematically uprooted them, destroying over 300 towns and villages in their wake. Over 2,500 ethnic Albanians were killed. Thousands had disappeared. Houses had been burned down and buildings had been gutted by fire, crops destroyed, livestock slaughtered. Serbs had systematically raped Kosovars women. Old people and children had been massacred.

Ms Jagger reported for Newsnight on a pattern of “apartheid” reminiscent of the darkest days of the war she had witnessed in Bosnia-Herzegovina: Serbian and Yugoslav security forces separating men from women and children throughout the province, just as they had done in Srebrenica. Most international organizations and foreign NGOs were withdrawing their staff for “security reasons”.

Ms Jagger went on to decry the plight of the Kosovars through several articles and lectures; she spoke at the House of Commons in the UK and the European Parliament.

She campaigned for the indictment and arrest of President Milosevic and continues to urge the arrest of General Mladic and Radovan Karadzic.

Her work on behalf of the countless victims of conflicts throughout the world, and her campaign to evacuate 22 terminally ill children from Bosnia, earned her several awards, among them Amnesty International/USA Media Spotlight Award for leadership “in recognition for her work on behalf of human rights around the world, exposing and focusing attention to injustice”.

In the mid-nineties, Ms Jagger began campaigning against the Death Penalty.

In 1996, Ms Jagger filed a clemency petition on behalf of Guinevere Garcia who had been sentenced to death in the state of Illinois, at the request of Amnesty International and the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. Ms Jagger made a personal plea to Governor Jim Edgar to commute Guinevere Garcia’s death sentence even though she had waived her right to further appeals after the Illinois Supreme Court upheld their verdict. She fought for Guinevere Garcia’s life, because she believed the question was not whether her wish should be granted, but whether the state of Illinois was justified in carrying out her execution. Guinevere Garcia’s decision to accept her execution was entirely consistent with a pathology born from mental disorder and from physical and sexual abuse. Guinevere Garcia’s execution would have constituted nothing less than an act of state sponsored homicide. Ms Jagger’s petition called for an act of executive mercy. She gave countless speeches and interviews on the case, using her voice to speak on behalf of Guinevere Garcia. She filed a clemency petition before Governor Edgar and testified before the Penitentiary Review Board. A few hours before the scheduled execution, Governor Edgar announced that he had commuted Guinevere Garcia’s sentence to life imprisonment. Guinevere Garcia “thanked God” and her attorney stated “you could tell that a weight had been lifted from her shoulders”.

On 29 June 1996, Bianca Jagger was made recipient of the “Abolitionist of the Year Award” by the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty for “her tireless efforts and heroic dedication in achieving clemency for Guinevere Garcia”.

Since then, Ms Jagger has campaigned on behalf of many capital punishment cases and she continues to campaign against the death penalty throughout the world.

In 1998, she fought in vain for the clemency of Sean Sellers and Karla Faye Tucker. Sean was the first person in forty years to be executed for a crime committed at age 16. Ms Jagger continues to urge for the US Government to shift its focus away from execution to “the prevention and treatment of sexual, physical and emotional abuse of children, in order to prevent them from succumbing to a life of crime”.

Karla Fay Tucker’s childhood had been one of abuse and forced prostitution. Karla never denied the atrocity of her crime. When Ms Jagger met her she was 38 and had spent 14 years behind bars. She was no longer the woman who had been sentenced to death in 1984; during her time in prison she underwent a remarkable transformation. She educated herself, became deeply religious and began ministering to others. Karla Fay Tucker was fully rehabilitated. She worked assiduously on the Scare-straight programme to help adolescent drug abusers. She no longer posed a threat to society. All appeals failed: Governor George Bush refused to grant clemency to Karla Fay Tucker and she was executed on 3 February 1998.

In light of these cases, Ms Jagger continues to this day to denounce the lack of meaningful appellate review in commutation proceedings. She continues to denounce the defendants’ poor access to executive clemency and the State’s lack of recognition for the defendant’s capacity for change, rehabilitation and remorse.

In June 2000, Ms Jagger travelled to Texas to meet with Gary Graham and plead on his behalf with Governor George W Bush. Gary Graham was 17, a minor when he was sentenced to death. He spent 19 years on Death Row for a crime he time and again denied to have committed. He was sentenced to die based on a sole eyewitness testimony. Evidence, subsequently uncovered, calls into serious question this witness identification. Six other witnesses signed affidavits stating that the killer was not Gary Graham. He could have been saved by The State Board of Pardons and Parole and yet they denied clemency. Gary Graham was executed on 22 June 2000. In his final words he proclaimed his innocence and the injustice of his sentence, “I am an innocent black man that is being murdered”, and “It is lynching what is taking place in America tonight”.

In November of that same year, Ms Jagger received a Champion of Justice Award for this very work, as a “steadfast and eloquent advocate for the elimination of the death penalty in America”. Her articles, lectures and press conferences on the subject continue to challenge a penal system that is unfair, arbitrary and capricious, and jurisprudence fraught with racial discrimination and judicial bias.

Ms Jagger has also been a strong advocate for Arms Control and Gun Control campaigns. She is committed to supporting women’s rights in the face of prejudice and domestic violence. Her work with former Manhattan Borough President Ruth Messinger was instrumental in establishing Iris House -- the East Harlem facility dedicated to providing health and social services to women, which has been a critical component of New York’s response to the AIDS crisis.

In May 2001 Ms Jagger travelled to Zambia, under the auspices of Christian Aid to document the devastating tragedy that has left more than 12 million children orphaned by the AIDS epidemic in the Sub-Sahara region. She launched Christian Aid’s report on the effect of HIV-AIDS in Africa, urging industrialised nations to fulfil the pledge they had made 30 years ago to donate 0.7% of their Gross National Product to the developing world. “Unless the Industrialized nations come to their rescue, HIV-AIDS will decimate the African Continent”

Bianca Jagger was in New York on September 11th, 2001. Three days after the terrorist attacks, she visited Ground Zero and paid public tribute to the firemen, policemen and rescue teams who had worked 24/7 to find life amid the rubble. She decried the attacks as crimes against humanity. She cautioned against revenge rather than justice and urged President Bush to act in accordance to International Law. She called for a justice fought not in the killing fields of Afghanistan, but in front of an International Court of Justice

In March 2002, Ms Jagger travelled to Afghanistan with a delegation of fourteen women, organised by Global Exchange to support afghan women’s projects.

That same year, In December 2002 Ms Jagger travelled to India on a Christian Aid mission to shed some light on HIV/AIDS situation and on the trafficking of children and child prostitution. She visited grassroots organisations in Delhi and Calcutta where she learned about their programmes to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and care for those infected, she spoke to many women and children in the Red Light area for whom safe sex is simply not an option. In Delhi, she met the voluntary Health Association of India, which works with the Indian Government to develop policy on HIV/AIDS. In Calcutta she visited Sanlaap, where she met children who had been trafficked and forced to become sex workers. At Sanlaap Ms Jagger heard first hand of the stigma faced by people - even children - infected by HIV/AIDS. She visited a shelter called Sneha which means “affection” set up by the organisation for children who have been rescued from trafficking. She met 48 girls from ages 10 to 18 who had been rescued by the police. At the shelter the girls were living together, learning skills to equip them to earn a living away from the red light districts.

Children who are rescued have to undergo a mandatory HIV/AIDS test, 28 of the 48 girls were already infected with the virus. During her visit Ms Jagger listen to horrific stories some of the girls live through in the brothels, stories of unspeakable abuse, cruelty and betrayal. One of the girls was visibly upset and after much hesitation she describes how men who looked sick, emaciated and often covered in with scabs would come to solicit their services at the brothel. Today in many countries throughout the world, many believe in the absurd myth that HIV/AIDS can be cured by having sex with a virgin. One of the girls was sobbing inconsolably when she described how the children would beg the madam not to have to sleep with these men, because they believed that they would contract HIV/AIDS, however, the madam wouldn’t hear their pleads and if they refused, they would be abused, beaten and burned with cigarettes. She was talking about herself but she didn’t dare to say it, because she would have had to admit that she had contracted HIV/AIDS. If any of the girls succeeded in escaping and went to the police to seek protection, they were likely to be returned to the brothel by an officer bribed by the madam, and if they returned to their villages their fathers would refuse to take them back.

Ms Jagger believes that many ways governments are failing to address the real 'terror' which millions of girls and women face every day.

In January 2003, Ms Jagger travelled on a fact finding mission to Iraq with a delegation of 32 academics from 28 US Universities, She has been one of the leading voices of the movement against the war in Iraq and was a keynote speaker at the anti-war demonstration 15 February 2003 in Hyde Park, the march was the largest political gathering in British history, it was attended by approximately 1,500,000 people.

Ms Jagger is deeply concerned by the erosion of civil liberties and human rights in the US, the UK and many other nations where Anti-Terror legislation would allow for indefinite detentions without trial and where judges would be excluded from the legal process.

She has denounced Mr George W. Bush’s administration development of a parallel justice system, circumventing decree by decree the oversight of Congress and the Courts. The Secret Military Commissions which will allow a death sentence without right to appeal. Such proceedings, she has decried, “violate the fundamental rights guaranteed under US Constitution” and “any curtailment, suspension or elimination of the constitutional liberties weaken rather than strengthen the war on terror”.

Ms Jagger is a staunch supporter of the International Criminal Court of Justice and the upholding of the rules of the Geneva Convention with regards to the treatment of prisoners. She has participated in numerous television and radio debates related to the war on terrorism, its victims and its future: most notably on BBC’s QuestionTime, Panorama and CNN’s Crossfire. The Bar Human Rights Committee for England and Wales made her their 2001 keynote lecturer at St Paul’s Cathedral, where her speech on the subject of Justice vs. Revenge was widely acclaimed by the media and public alike.

On 16 December 2003 Bianca Jagger was appointed Council of Europe’s Goodwill Ambassador “For the Fight against the Death Penalty”

On 9 December 2004 Bianca Jagger received the Right Livelihood Award, known as the Alternative Nobel Prize for her "Long-standing commitment and dedicated campaigning over a wide range of issues of human rights, social justice and environmental protection, including the abolition of the death penalty, the prevention of child abuse, the rights of indigenous peoples to the environment that supports them and the prevention and healing of armed conflicts."

Bianca Jagger, is member of the Executive Director’s Leadership Council for Amnesty International USA, member of the Advisory Committee of Human Rights Watch-America. Ms. Jagger also serves on the Advisory Board of the Coalition for International Justice. She is a member of the Twentieth Century Task Force to Apprehend War Criminals; a Board member of People for the American Way and the Creative Coalition.

Bianca Jagger performed in various films and Televisions productions: “The Rutles” 1978 Starring, Eric Idle, HYPERLINK "http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=95464" Neil Innes, HYPERLINK "http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=95775" Mick Jagger, HYPERLINK "http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=111574" Paul Simon, HYPERLINK "http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=77347" Ron Wood. Directed by HYPERLINK "http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=95365" Eric Idle and HYPERLINK "http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=116298" Gary Weis. (NR, 70 minutes). A parody documentary of a Beatles-like singing group called the Rutles, Charts the adventures of the prefab four, possibly the most famous band of all time. The Rutles was collaboration between Monty Python alumnus Eric Idle and Saturday Night Live filmmaker Gary Weis.

“Couleur Chair” known as “Flesh Colour” 1978 Starring Dennis Hopper,  HYPERLINK "http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0856187/" Laurent Terzieff,  HYPERLINK "http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0902610/" Veruschka von Lehndorff

“The American Success”, 1980 Starring Jeff Bridges, Ned Beatty and John Glover, directed by William Richert, “Cannon Ball Run” 1981 Starring Bert Reynolds, Roger Moore, Farrah Faucett, directed by HYPERLINK "http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0624102/" Hal Needham, it is an action, adventure, comedy and more Tagline: You'll root for them all...but you'll never guess who wins. Plot Outline: A wide variety of eccentric competitors participate in a wild and illegal cross-country car race.

HYPERLINK "http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086759/" "Miami Vice" 1985 TV episode Free Verse…Carmen, Starring Don Johnson, 

“Street Hawk” 1985 TV episode The Unthinkable…Simone Prevera “Hotel” 1986 TV episode Separation…Francesca Delgado “The Colbys” 1987 TV episode Betrayal…Maya Kumara Starring Charlton Heston, HYPERLINK "http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001684/" Katharine Ross

HYPERLINK "http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097001/" C.H.U.D. II - Bud the Chud (1989) ....Velma

“Last Party 2000” 2001 Filmed over the last six months of the 2000 Presidential election, Phillip Seymour Hoffman starts documenting, Rudolf Giuliani, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Noam Chomsky

Ms Jagger has written articles for the op-ed page of the New York Times(USA), the Washington Post (USA), The Dallas Morning news (USA), the Columbus Dispatcher (USA) the Observer (UK), The Guardian (UK), The Independent (UK), The Mail on Sunday (UK), The Sunday Express (UK) The New Statesman (UK), the European (UK),Liberation (FR), Le Journal du Dimanche (FR), Le Juriste International (FR), Panorama (IT) to name a few.

I have begun to source the awards section. --Morenooso (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Member of Washington Office on Latin America?

Jagger is described as a member of the Washington Office on Latin America. This is not a membership organization. The group does not currently list her as belonging on the board of directors. Suggest we remove unless further citation is provided. Notmyrealname 19:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to the writer for putting down her real birth year. I have seen sources where they have her born in around 1950, when one could easily find out she is several years older than that. They could find out from magazine/newspaper articles written at the time she married Mick Jagger. They are close to the same age.--Susan Nunes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.228.62.138 (talk) 16:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Lawsuit

An Austrian man who found a platinum ring belonging to human-rights activist Bianca Jagger is suing her for not paying him a reward. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7906642.stm Are details on this case worth including in the article? 203.211.75.108 (talk) 07:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a bit early to include that. If the story grows, then perhaps, but for now I'd rather focus on finding reliable sources for her early life, jet-setting days, and charitable works. - Jredmond (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems hardly newsworthy to me. People lose stuff all the time. It almost reads as if the finder is trying to extort money from her in hopes of a settlement based upon a defamation lawsuit. Recommend the maintenance tag be removed. --Morenooso (talk) 09:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Tag removed. Trivial and not needed for comprehension of this subject. --Morenooso (talk) 14:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Challenges in improving the article

I just reverted an edit I made which was intended to move the reference to Gandhi from the Bio to the Activism section, where it belongs. But then, in checking the reference, I found that the "source", netglimse.com, is mirroring the WP article. While I have another source to replace it, I hestitate to do so, since so much else needs to be done:

• Jagger's birth year was listed as 1950, which was clearly incorrect, so I changed it to 1945 (she's almost two years younger than Mick Jagger, who was born in July 1943). Other than imdb.com, however, I haven't found any reliable sources that give a precise date.
• Her early background, as written here, is sketchy at best, and so too is the transition she made from jet setter to international activist. Both of these formative periods need to be filled in because they have so much to say about who she was and who she eventually became.
• Her career as an activist is highly notable, but the current material is little more than a string of dates and events. All of this needs to be tied together in a narrative, rather than a list that jumps from one cause or honor to another.

The problem in sorting out Jagger's bio is that for all her many causes over the past 20 years, relatively little has been written about her personally. Much of what is available on the internet is a reflection of her own attempts to overcome her previous image, and I sympathize with that. But when the main source on a subject is the subject itself, the job of telling the story and "getting it right" becomes all the more difficult. Allreet (talk) 06:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Following are some independent sources on Bianca Jagger available on the internet. This does not include biographical profiles published by organizations affiliated with the subject, nor the long press release posted above on Ms. Jagger's background. I've also provided each of the references in citation format on the edit page, which are "remarked out" and can be copied as needed (be sure to remove the "remark" codes at the beginning and end of each citation).

• People, 2 May 1977: Smilgis, Martha, "A Rock 'n Roll Marriage"

• People, 23 July 1979: "You Can't Go Home Again, Bianca, Studio 54 Pals Said, but Jagger Did—to War-Torn Nicaragua"

• Time, 12 November 1979: "Divorced"

• People, 29 March 1982: Weiss, Michael J., "Bianca Jagger Trades Social Life for Social Activism"

• Time, 18 November 1996: "Senate Victors: Torricelli, New Jersey"

• Time, 15 February 1999: Jagger, Bianca (author), "Eulogy: Sean Sellers"

• Architects of Peace, 2000: Jagger, Bianca (author), Essay on Activism

• Time, 13 May 2001: Paris, Thomas Sancton, "A Matter of Life or Death"

• The New Yorker, 3 February 2003: McGrath, Ben, "Greetings from Baghdad"

• Maverick Voices, 2004: Jacobson, Kurt, "Bianca Jagger"

• The Independent, 19 April 2004: Byrnes, Sholto, "Bianca Jagger: Jagger's Edge"

• Associated Press, 7 December 2008: Hera, Vanessa, "Bianca Jagger Fights for Rain Forests at UN Talks"

• BBC News, 26 July 2009: Lawson, Alastair, "Anglican Church in India mine row"

• The Guardian, 27 July 2009: Jagger, Bianca (author), "Undermining human rights: An Indian settlement built on mineral deposits is at risk from a mining company. As consumers, it is up to us to protect it."

Allreet (talk) 13:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Bianca Jagger's birth year

Regarding Bianca Jagger's birth year, this article has claimed she was born in 1950 and includes two sources that cite this particular year. One these is the organization Right Livelihood, which gave her an award and, therefore, most likely received biographical information from the subject. The other is HistoryOrb.com, of which I know very little, so it's difficult to say what their source might be.

However, three of the article's more reliable references have this to say:

Entertainment Weekly, May 18, 2001, indicates she was married on May 12, 1971. The article states, "Jagger, then 27, wore a green suit and multicolored sneakers as he proclaimed his love for the Yves Saint Laurent-clad 26-year-old beauty before him." Based on the age cited, she was born in 1945.

People magazine, June 4, 1990, states "Bianca Jagger, who has been divorced from rocker MICK JAGGER for 10 years now, doesn't see a reason to drop her household name. "I don't think that my celebrity has anything to do with the Jagger name," says Bianca, 45..." Based on her age in 1990, she was born in 1945.

Internet Movie Database (IMDB), currently cites Jagger's date of birth as "2 May 1945".

Other sources that concur with this include:

Time magazine, November 12, 1979, reported the finalization of the divorce between "Mick Jagger, 35, leader of the Rolling Stones; and Bianca Jagger, 34." The age cited supports a 1945 birth.

People magazine, May 2, 1977, addresses the confusion on the occasion of Jagger's birthday, stating "Bianca, now at 32 (or 27 by her count)". Five years later in People magazine, March 29, 1982, this distinction isn't made in an article on her activism, which reports that "For a decade Nicaraguan-born Bianca, 37, has participated in relief efforts." The age cited also supports a 1945 birth.

Chase's Calendar of Events, 2007, indicates Jagger turned 62 on May 2. This also supports a 1945 birth.

On the basis of these sources, I am reverting the unexplained changes by 66.36.133.63 and will be requesting administrator intervention if the year is again changed back to 1950. Allreet (talk) 18:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

these are not reliable sources there magazine articles,all the charities shes involved in states shes was born in 1950. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.36.133.63 (talk) 23:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Since I related my position as completely as possible, I would have appreciated hearing from you before you changed this date again. Just the same, let's start over by accepting that we're both convinced of our own positions and that we're both doing what we believe is the right thing to do. From there, I hope we can work this out.

My position - that Ms. Jagger was born in 1945 - is based largely on the published record prior to 1980 when the attention of the world was focused on her and her relationship with Mick Jagger. While nobody disputed her age (26) at the time of their marriage in 1971, she apparently was already attempting to pare off some years before the divorce, as reflected in the article I cited that described her as "now at 32 (or 27 by her count)". Despite such efforts, major publications continued using 1945 in calculating her age. As for the primary publishers of 1950 as the year of birth, all appear to be organizations Ms. Jagger has been affiliated with.

On that note, I believe that magazines such as Time and People are far more reliable as sources than charities (nonprofit organizations) because it's their business to report information independent of the subjects they are covering. It's also their job to scrutinize the details. By contrast, the "business" of nonprofits is to promote their causes. While accuracy might be important on other fronts, in matters like this, the information usually comes directly from the subject.

So my question is, what sources other than those connected with Ms. Jagger have you found that support 1950 as the year of her birth? For some examples of what might help us sort through this, see WP:Verifiability, particularly the section on Reliable Sources. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 05:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Bianca's daughter jade said her mother was very young when she had her, she was born in 1971 so if bianca was born in 1945 she would be 26, witch aint young, 21 is more realistic. i cant find the interview anymore i saw it on google, when i do ill post the link. Also many rolling stones books,interviews and documentaries mention her as "mick jagger young bride".

Thanks for the quick reply. Under WP:VER, we can't rely on an inspecific remark made by her daughter or general characterizations from books or films. The only thing that will help are published dates and other references to the subject's specific age. For example, is that all these works had to say, his "young bride"? I'm sure they were more detailed than that in writing about one of the world's most intriguing women. At any rate, I personally don't care one way or the other how old or how young Ms. Jagger is. My only concerns are that we provide readers with the most accurate information possible and that we're fair to the subject in terms of how we present it. Any additional thoughts? I'd also appreciate hearing from other editors on this subject. Allreet (talk) 22:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Given that all we have to go on are published reports, I think it would be reasonable to put in that there is contradictory evidence for the date. Perhaps in a footnote? Or put an asterisk next to the date with a note?Notmyrealname (talk) 16:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Based on the references I listed, Notmyrealname's support, and the lack of verifiable information from user 66.36.133.63, I am changing Ms. Jagger's birth year from 1950 to 1945. I am also including a note on the edit page asking users to refer to the Discussion page if they intend to change the year again and that they provide references and/or a rationale before making such a change. In other words, I am seeking their input as well as feedback from other editors to help resolve this. Thank you. Allreet (talk) 14:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Excellent job.Notmyrealname (talk) 04:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Reference to activties called "spam", why?

The addition of verifiable links is being blocked as to Ms. Bianca Jagger's activities, Why? : http://www.350.org/messengers#bianca [1], http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bianca-jagger/yes-we-can_b_181542.html [2], http://www.fokus.se/2008/06/bianca-jagger-den-oklippta-intervjun/ [3], ... just to name a few hot off Google Search for "Bianca Jagger 350".

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/350_(organisation) [4] 350 (organisation)

See climate change denial, for a "The Nixon Interviews style" read see excellent: [5] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/seitz.html

http://www.350.org/people/athletes [6], http://www.350.org/riders [7] new, http://www.350.org/en/messengers [8], http://www.350.org/people [9] 99.39.184.88 (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Why? Because it's not notable, and only the last (at fokus.se) seems reliable with respect to Ms. Jagger. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Fokus.se 99.181.135.85 (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Help the article

I can't-am overloaded; but this article makes Bianca Jagger's life story that of having married Mick Jagger and then becoming a party girl/Saint. Please, some balance and perspective. She had to grow up somewhere, right? Maybe do other things that weren't related to the Stones or Politics? Cause that's all I see here thus far. Please help the article.--Leahtwosaints (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Underconstruction tag added: 2010-04-28

In order to source the awards section as suggested by another editor, I have placed an Underconstruction tag on the article. I have found several useful citations that from URL's whose sites have articles here on Wikipedi. After my initial post, I will add one or two at a time and try to use distinct URLs. --Morenooso (talk) 07:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

The awards section is now sourced. The maintenance tag was removed. --Morenooso (talk) 09:08, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

New section added 2010-05-01 concerning an event related to Jimbo Wales

In this DIFF, Jimbo recounts a 1981 experience that Jagger said is her life changing moment. In 1981 as part of a US congressional delegation to a UN refugee camp in Honduras, Jagger and the staff saw an El Salvador death squad march off some of the refugees. Armed with nothing but cameras to document what was happening, Jagger and company followed the squad towards the El Salvador border. When both came face to face, cameras versus M-16s, the combined delegation shouted at the armed rebels. I am about to post a new section using two independent sources I found that document this ephinany. The two citations come from:

• Bianca Jagger: Champion of peace news.bbc.co.uk

• Bianca Jagger: Jagger's edge www.independent.co.uk

If I remember correctly, the first URL listed comes from present citation #27. Both of these cited sources have been verified by an independent admin who I previewed them to to get his advice on this matter.

He suggested I flesh out this 1981 experience using the cited sources but to first come to the article talkpage and post this new section here. I have completed the section in my userspace and will post it momentarily into Jagger's article. I'm trying to get Jimbo to post his sig on his Jimmy Wales article as the only thing I would like to see Wikipedia be improved. --Morenooso (talk) 05:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

BTW, if readers perform a search for 1981 in those URLs, you will taken to where the cited text comes from. --Morenooso (talk) 05:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Great care was taken to cite the new section. I disgree that with the revert summary that it seems improper. In some sentences I employed direct quotes because I wanted the further reader to know those weren't my words. Yes, it might require wordsmithing and I would say expansion as UK Independent news source has further info about what makes this life changing moment more interesting and notable. --Morenooso (talk) 16:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible other citations

• From Studio 54 to the front line Irish Independent October 28 2001, Retrieved:2010-05-01.

• BOB (TORRICELLI) AND BIANCA (YES, THAT ONE) TO THE RESCUE NY Times June 4, 1995, Retrieved:2010-05-01. --Morenooso (talk) 17:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• Diary - Bianca Jagger New Statesman by Bianca Jagger June 28, 2004 Retrieved:2010-05-01.

Comment - While this source is written by Jagger, it comes 13 years after the event and gives her direct perspective. --Morenooso (talk) 18:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Another editor should add those references to expand this section. I admit the title might read better as Life changing incident but that's wordsmithing. I have trouble chewing gum and walking at the same time but that's not important right now. I will place the Expand tag on that section. --Morenooso (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I must goofing up that Expand section tag. I tried using the correct section tag from Wikipedia:Template_messages/Cleanup#Expand_and_add but it's mucking up the format. I'm hungry - time for lunch!

Unexplained revert of cited material 2010-05-01

In this DIFF, cited material from two independent sources was reverted without an edit summary. The cited material was documented in the section above this called New section added 2010-05-01 concerning an event related to Jimbo Wales. Another editor should look at this revert. Morenooso (talk) 16:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow, it's worse than I thought. Arthur Rubin deleted not only the new section but also 14 citations I provided for Jagger's various awards. --Morenooso (talk) 16:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I reverted myself. However, in regard the #Epiphany section, the reliable sources are quoting Bianca's recollections of the events, and make it clear they are doing so. It either needs to be put as entirely her viewpoint, or reliably sourced to someone else who was there. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It's probably part of a US Congressional record as she reported the incident upon her return. The new section comes from two different UK newspapers that have no relation to the subject.--Morenooso (talk) 16:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

No, the UK newspapers don't have a relation to the subject, but they make it clear that they are quoting her, both about the event (for which there should be independent verification somewhere), and for her reaction. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Disagree strongly. The BBC News is mostly a report. Yes, it might have been given as an interview but the paper has editorial oversight. That another UK paper picked up on it a year later provides an independent third source. That both covered an event more than 10 years prior (12 in the BBC News case; 13 in the UK Independent) makes this remarkable. --Morenooso (talk) 16:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, since the incident happened at a UN camp, some report most likely went there as well. --Morenooso (talk) 17:00, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems easy enough to resolve this, whether or not other sources can be found. We can report (without any skepticism, unless there is some reason of which I am unaware that anyone might be skeptical of the story) on Bianca Jagger's recollection, describing it in the same manner as the sources do. If someone finds an independent account of the same events, that could and should be included too. I do think it is important to be careful which the characterization - we don't want to use negative language like "She claims that..." or "She alleges that..." unless there is some real reason to doubt. "She recalls that..." would be fine.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I placed two more possible citations above as the 1981 death squad incident is now getting ghits. --Morenooso (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Concur with Jimbo. That's an excellent solution, pending further independent verification. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

(to Morenooso): Please check to see whether those ghits are Wikipedia echos. It does happen, you know. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't appear to be so as the section is new. I must have done so many variants of yhits that other reliable sources are now coming to light. Nothing is mirroring that new section. --Morenooso (talk) 12:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

One good test of mirroring is that when a search engine picks up a section, it will find it in all parts of Wikipedia. Yahoo and Google have not yet indexed/found that section or my userspace area where the section exists in its final post as seen by this userspaceDIFF and picked up by mirrors like answer dotcom and absoluteastronomy dotcom. The new section was built first in my userspace and copied over to the article. Search engines will pick content of userpages. --Morenooso (talk) 12:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Yhits now find the search term, Bianca Jagger+death squad, to this article and my userspace where a the actual paragraph was developed. None of the more common mirrors have yet picked-up or mirrored that change in their Wikipedia copies. I would expect them to start mirroring the change within the week. --Morenooso (talk) 01:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Prime issue identified to another admin who previewed the recent sourcing to the awards and new section added

One of the prime issues I identified to a different admin, who previewed the recent additions, is that some of "Jagger's press" could be viewed potentially as circular. However, the gentle reader knows that famous people who lie on their bios usually get caught. Those that get lie and get caught usually crash and burn (for lack of better words). Jagger is on many different previous boards, commissions, etc. that report her bio like this one that mentions (in a scant way) her death squad activities/reports:

• Bianca Jagger Santa Clara University Retrieved:2010-05-01 Mention of her "documented" squad activities in El Salvador.

Yes, sometimes "stuff" does get by, but eventually it catches up to fakers. Jagger doesn't strike all these reported bios/press as a faker IMHO. --Morenooso (talk) 17:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

One of the other issues I identified to the other unnamed admin is that when I found the initial citation, the search for this 1981 event did not get ghits or yhits (I prefer Yahoo). Now it appears the search, Bianca Jagger+death squad is getting hits that weren't there just four days ago when I started work on the new section added yesterday. In a section above, I found two new sources that weren't there the other day. Maybe my searching on consecutive days is forcing yhits. . .

New Yhit citations for this article verifying search

I just performed the search, Bianca Jagger+death squad, and it yielded another from The Independent which is an Irish newspaper. In another section on this talkpage where I documented the lengths I went to reliable sourced citations that were not circular, I found one that is listed in this TheIndependentDIFF posted May 1, 2010. Now appearing as a subsearch find yhit is this new The Independent article:

• BIANCA OF THE SORROWS by: JOHN CARLIN date: Sunday, 20 August 1995 Retrieved: May 2, 2010

This interview, which was not indexed yesterday, documents the 1981 incident on or before August 20, 1995 (almost 10 years prior to the first cites used) and mentions Jagger's 1981 death squad experience. As per Jimbo's observation, to attempt to write this off as an interview, recollection, "she claimed in an interview" would not wash. It corrobates what Jimbo posted above and supports directly the two citations used in the article. That another newspaper with editorial oversight published this ephinany 14 years after the incident and before the other citations used, is a new Yhit. --Morenooso (talk) 13:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Answer dot com just started mirroring Wikipedia. However, they misspelled ephiphany. I wonder where they got that error from? Giggle, giggle. Please see Bianca Jagger www.answers.com Retrieved: 2010-05-04. Morenooso (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Maintenance tag cleanup 2010-05-04

A number of maintenance tags no longer apply to this article. The lawsuit tag is a great example - it does not have legs and is not necessary for comprehension of the subject matter. Should the suit ever go to court and something "major" be found in reliable sources, add details in an appropriate location.

BLP Sources tag - This article had 19 citations prior to my editting. For its lenth, 19 is WP:BOMBARD if this article was up for WP:AFD. Any of the 18 additonal ones I provided can be used to provide reliable sources. 19 is carpet bombing in the classic B-52D conventional-bombing ground interdiction parlance. 37 is post-MAD theory with Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper coming back for an encore of refs. As per Jimbo's observation, I don't see anything in her article that is "highly doubtful" or that "she claimed" type material. If there is something that needs a citation, please use the {{cn}} template.

Bare URLs - I think I fixed the majority of those on my first visit. Several employ the "basic citation method", which some editors will use in putting in the basic website URL. If an editor sees such a post, IMPROVE IT and move on. Please don't slap tag unless you're willing to improve the article on a subsequent visit.

Ephinany section - I will add the other reliable sources found to the appropriate places in that section. Again, as per Jimbo's observation this tag is no longer needed. The Tone tag will be removed in one month if no editor steps forward to "copyedit" or change the tone. IMHO, the tone reflected what was present in the cited material. Improve it or move along. --Morenooso (talk) 13:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup of tags will now commence. --Morenooso (talk) 14:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup of tone tag accomplishment. No good faith edits were made. ----moreno oso (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Ephinancy section additonal citations provided: 2010-05-04

As per the discussion in other sections here on this talkpage, additional citations were introduced into this section. Its maintenance tag was also removed as per those sections. --Morenooso (talk) 15:28, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Full name

The name "Morena" has been added again to this article - after having been removed at some time in the past. It should stay removed - it is false, perhaps vandalism. If there are reliable sources which mention it, they should be carefully checked for date of authorship and what Wikipedia said at the time - Ms. Jagger believes that the error originated with Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

This edit by an anonymous ip number is the source for the re-insertion of the Morena name. The anon cites People.com. That source has a quote from Ms. Jagger to this effect: "To start with, my real name, Bianca Pérez Morena de Macías, would be too long for anybody to ever call me that. [Besides], to people, I'm Bianca more than Jagger. Bianca is what people respond to."

Despite being in People Magazine, this is an error and should not be re-inserted into the article.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, Mick Jagger article is constantly being violated also, as well as their children. This has got to end! Best, --Discographer (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. She has some other suggestions for improvements to the entry, and I'll either work on them myself tomorrow if I have time or pass it along to OTRS.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The Rolling Stones article might need the same, too, please. Best, --Discographer (talk) 21:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Because the "Morena" name came back again, and this is an ongoing issue, I'm going to put this article under Pending Changes.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Ms. Jagger has added a correction on ICorrect that "Morena" is not part of her name and she considers its insertion as "A racial bad taste joke." http://www.icorrect.com/browse_corrections_user/32 Tgpaul58 (talk) 13:54, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Could use some help here

Ms Jagger's official biography says: "In 1981, Ms. Jagger travelled to Central America with a US Congressional fact-finding mission to visit La Virtud, a UN refugee camp in Honduran territory 20km from the border with El Salvador. During her visit, an armed death squad from El Salvador crossed the border, entered the camp and rounded up about 40 refugees. The refugees’ thumbs were tied behind their backs; the death squad intended to take the hostages across the border to El Salvador, with the Honduran army’s blessing. Ms. Jagger, the delegation and the relief workers decided to follow the death squads. The families of the hostages joined them and together they ran along a dry river bed for about half an hour, armed only with cameras. During the chase, some were taking photographs.

They all feared that the death squads were going to kill the hostages once they arrived in Salvadorian territory. Finally, they came within earshot of the death squads and the hostages. The death squad turned around brandishing their M-16's. Fearing for their lives, Ms. Jagger and the relief workers began to shout, “You will have to kill us all,” and, “We will denounce your crime to the world.” There was a long pause. The death squads talked among themselves and, without explanation, left, leaving their hostages free - unharmed. This experience was a turning point in Ms. Jagger’s life. She realised the importance of bearing witness when innocent people’s lives are at stake, how a small act of courage can make a difference and sometimes even save lives. Upon her return to the US, Ms. Jagger testified before The Congressional Subcommittee on Inter American Affairs, to bring attention to the atrocities committed by the Salvadorian government and its paramilitary forces, with the complicity of the Honduran Government. During the eighties, Ms. Jagger began her lifelong association with several international human rights organisations, most notably with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch."

She is concerned that our section "Epiphany" contains factual errors regarding this. I haven't studied it yet, but a line-by-line working out of this would seem to be worthwhile, and more eyes than just my own on the problem will be helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we should not include this, if it has errors. Jade Jagger's (her daughter) article need checked also; I can go through this. Best, --Discographer (talk) 08:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay Jimbo, their is nothing wrong with this article now. If Bianca says their still is, well then I'm sorry, but this is contradicting references. Best, --Discographer (talk) 14:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't see how we can say it is done, when what we haven't isn't even fully coherent. "Along with its staff, she saw a death squad march away several refugees as gun point prisoners towards El Salvador" is an odd way of putting anything. The odd expression gun point prisoners appears to have been used nowhere else but in our article.

Additionally, we say "The squad released its captives and the transformation was not easy for Jagger initially." It's hard to know what that is supposed to mean. Which transformation? Not easy for Jagger in what way?

I do agree with you, by the way, that it is not clear what errors she has in mind, since our recounting - as badly written as it is - seems to match hers in every relevant detail. I will try to find out! Perhaps we are overlooking something vital.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

If we can find this out, I promise we can fix this up properly and accordingly, and to Bianca's desiringly approval, which she should have. Best, --Discographer (talk) 17:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Mind if I weigh here, since I "terribly" wrote the piece and found the URLs that justified the paragraph's existence?----moreno oso (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Please do. Best, --Discographer (talk) 17:58, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

1. The word, "transformation", was directly used in the Bob Chaundy URL from the BBC News.
2. The word, "initially", is in essence a distillation of the other three URLs used to support the entire paragraph. Without saying as much, it appeared to me that even the reporters found a dichotomy in the transformation that was taking place. On the one hand, which now becomes somewhat WP:NOR and WP:SYNT - how would they or anyone else explain the change or transformation from her 1970s image to what happened after this event? Mind you the gentle reader, that nothing backed up her account until the URLs were found and then "tightly written" to preclude the very people or editors who pick apart her article because as per an observation above, it "doesn't match their expectation" or even what reputable sources had in print on her. The first two URLs that were found came from the mid 2000s. And, I was truly amazed when the 1995 URL "popped up" and remarked about that in a section above.
3. The "odd" expression as detailed by Jimbo, gun point prisoners, may not be used elsewhere. If you will look up one or sections above on this talkpage, an observation was made about mirrors. I write in a distinctive manner which enables me to see when mirrors have picked up on an item. For example, do a search on "YTRiKC_search" and see where it points. But I digress, what adjective would or should be used? They were prisoners. They were marched away. And, they were at gun point. I was very careful to keep to WP:V and WP:RS in writing that sentence because I knew and expounded to an unidentified admin that the piece would be picked apart by others. That is being picked apart now by Jagger and Wales was not seen at. As Jimbo said elsewhere on the page, change it to read something like, "the refugees were marched away at gunpoint towards El Salvador" and "get over it" - his direct words said in all WP:AGF.

I could go on but I have to go because I have appointment. This has been an illuminating situation. ----moreno oso (talk) 18:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Point by point:

1. "Transformation" is a fine word, and it is made clear in the BBC piece what is meant - Jagger's transition in the public eye from celebrity closely associated to rock and roll to someone most known in the public eye as human rights campaigner. It doesn't belong in this sentence about the squad releasing captives.
2. I have no beef with the word "initially" - it is that the sentence doesn't explain what transformation is being talked about. For the reader who hasn't read the BBC article, this sentence is simply baffling.
3. I would recommend not writing in an odd way just to find mirrors of Wikipedia. I would say something like "the refugees were marched away at gunpoint towards El Salvador" would be fine. I'm not sure what you mean by 'get over it'. :)

Finally, overall I applaud what I see as the essential accuracy of this section. My concerns about readability are easily fixed. I haven't done it yet myself because I wanted to be very careful not to screw up the detailed facts in any way here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

• The transformation or whatever word is used is almost inconsequential. I had to stick to the facts that were readily available in the URLs and could not go beyond the printed words. The reporters do not allude to what the transformation was because at the time it probably was not readily apparent to anyone. It only becomes "real" after you read the rest of the article. If the epiphany Jagger had is lost on them after reading her further sections, then there is nothing that can be added to this section as it concerned and is backed only by what was in print from those newspaper accounts. To be blunt, if they get hung up on transformation, they're lost period and there's not much Wikipedia can do. You can lead the horse to water but you can't force him to drink or be edified.
• To be honest with you Jimbo, I have always been impressed by Jagger but when the pieces of the puzzle fell into place per what she suggested to you in the sections way above, I was chilled when I read almost verbatim the account in four verifiable reports. But, as an editor, I could not edit with my heart or beliefs and had to be "stone cold" in the same manner as the paid professionals.
• I believe Wikipedia now has some latitude with this section in wordsmithing the account. However, as per your caveat, I wouldn't recommend straying too far from the facts. BTW, I hear some bigwig at the Foundation said, "Get over it" somewhere. I wonder who that masked man or person is. ;) ----moreno oso (talk) 19:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to honestly tell you that I don't know what you mean by any of this. I seem to be failing to communicate. I was not and am not suggesting that we go beyond the facts, and I have no idea what you are talking about when you say something about "get over it". Why don't you be explicit? Who told you to "get over it" and what was it you were supposed to get over? What bigwig at the Foundation? I was not even suggesting a change to the actual content, only the badly written sentence. The sentence made absolutely no sense as it stood. But your copyedit yesterday fixed it reasonably well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:36, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

You know, I honestly thought that you, Jimbo, said "get over it" somewhere here on this page. I did a search but can't find it now. Maybe when I originally read your thoughts about Jagger's request, I read that into my psyche and it seemed like those words made great sense. I don't really think you or anyone else meant going beyond the facts - in fact, seeing you write that now confirms that you could have arbitrarily chosen to do a copyedit but chose not to because you wanted consensus which is what Wikipedia should be all about. When I read yesterday what you wrote about "needing some help here", I thought, "what's he getting at?" and that's when I decided "to weigh in". It was after my appointment that I saw how someone or another editor might misinterpret the tone of the paragraph. What really struck me was the one line, "Jagger and company" which sounded way too casual to me but which I think appeared in one of the URLs. As best I could, I tried to use two or three words from one URL, two or three from the second, etc. in composing the original paragraph so that no one could say, "where did that come from". Then, I took both of our thoughts, made the copyedit (screwed it up by hitting the "save" versus "preview" key and wondered for a couple of minutes how I got an edit conflict) and finally felt like I had a compromise that I knew I could live with and that hopefully would read better and make sense to others. I'm not sure if what I just wrote is getting my point across and I apologize if I wasn't "explicit" before. I think as an editor my basic skills were okay prior to and just after this edit but that doing some work here on Jagger's article really honed them or made me more confident that I could go beyond just doing "bits and pieces" type editting on Wikipedia. I'm probably not saying that right either or conveying all my thoughts adequately. In a nutshell, I "got over" sticking to what the reporters said" and made a copyedit that I knew I could live with. ----moreno oso (talk) 11:01, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, well, normally, telling other editors to "get over it" or similar tone isn't really my style. :-) I'm sorry if I sounded grumpy about that, I just really didn't understand what you were getting at.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, don't feel too bad about it. I get told in my personal to "shut up and go color in your corner quietly" frequently. I've learned that naps on a mat work too and graham cookies plus milk are a bonus if I'm a good boy! ----moreno oso (talk) 14:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Infobox change

Being WP:BOLD, the infobox did not look right without a wikilink to human rights. Advocacy was a natural pipe for advocate. Afterwards, looking at the box, something was off and I decided it needed cleanup. Please note: "The" is used because in the wikilinked dropping knowledge article, the round table discussion reads, "The Table of Free Voices" (my emphasis). ----moreno oso (talk) 12:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Additonally, I'd recommend removing the citations from the infobox as those facts are established as of this dated posting (I know somebody said, "get over it" - must be me). The citations clutter the infobox and do not enhance what is being presented. I'll leave this to another editor to make a change. ----moreno oso (talk) 12:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Another recommended change - wikilinked a statement

In trying to describe or title the section about the death squad experience, I searched my soul, which is wikilinked to a song from which that line is sung, I'd like to comment about how I came up with the title for this section. The word, transformation, kind of bugged me too. As I was drafting the section with its citations, I kept searching/thinking, "What can I use as a synonym?" MOS says not to use words within the section as the reader should be pleasantly surprised by not being overly POV'ed as to what will be encountered. About this time, an Allstate Insurance commercial came on with Dennis Haysbert booming on about in essence what an epiphany is. It was as if Robin Hood's Kevin Costner shot me between the eyes from a 100 meters.

I'd recommend that Jagger's statement, (this was) "a turning point in my life" be wikilinked to Ephiphany (feeling). In fact, since I'm feeling my oats, I just might make the change. The unrecorded or nonstated transformation was an ephiphany for Jagger. She may have not realized it at the time - maybe she did but I don't know that which is why I used the words, and the transformation was not easy for Jagger initially, because one of the reporters used words to that effect. I now see how a lot of this may have not been as clear for other readers because I saw and read all the URLs thoroughly to distillate the essence of the encounter. Maybe the tone is still off with the use of the words, "shouted" "armed with nothing but cameras" "you will have to kill us all", but those are all directly quoted which is why citations appear in the midst of statements. I didn't come up with "you will have to kill us all" - it was reported and supported by two citations.

Jimbo, I will be explicit here: if you don't like the piped in wikilink change ephiphinany, kindly revert it and I'll sit in my corner and quietly color. I am being kind of facetious, but seriously Jimbo, if someone objects, I heard someone say, "Get over it." ;) ----moreno oso (talk) 13:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Epiphany

Are you sure you're entirely correct on this, nothing to go against Bianca's approval on this? I went through and did some minor word changing and correcting, that's all. Awaiting final approval from Jimbo on Epiphany completion. Best, --Discographer (talk) 18:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I watched your edits and approve of the changes. Combined with yesterday's copyedit, the section is as good as it gets unless more sources can be found for additional information. ----moreno oso (talk) 18:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree. Best, --Discographer (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The only other change I'd recommend would come to this statement: When both groups were within shouting distance of each other, Jagger and the staff shouted. If I remember correctly, shouting appeared twice in one of the URLs but none of the others. I tried to preserve the true verifiable wording. As per a previous section, I firmly believe we now have the latitude to change the first shouting to hearing range or something else having to do with auditory range. I'm been up seven hours watching the Mundial and the next game is starting which means I'm losing comprehension. What do you think about changing the first shouting? ----moreno oso (talk) 18:23, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I've been watching the games too. As long as Bianca is alright with this (which you know she reads this), and if Jimbo has no problems with it, and if nothing here in your wording is absolutely fabricated, then I say do this. You have got to be very certain on all of the wording! If so, then I say okay. Best, --Discographer (talk) 18:37, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Auditory sounds better than hearing. I'm going to make the change and wikilink it. ----moreno oso (talk) 18:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Best, --Discographer (talk) 18:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't hear you over the big GOL call. ;) ----moreno oso (talk) 18:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Cheers! --Discographer (talk) 18:59, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Name and birthdate

There were edits today that changed Jagger's name. While Wikipedia has an article on Spanish naming customs, this is a highly subjective personal preference among women of Hispanic descent. While that article is correct for the most part, a woman can chose to do whatever she wants as personal, family or the husband's preference may factor in. And, after a divorce the same issues arise.

Then it's really easy for names to be printed wrong by the press because they don't fully understand the naming procedure/preference and "assume" their interpretation is the right one. The definitive source on this will be Jagger. Jagger has to be the source because woman's names are easily screwed up and chances are she has a preference which is her right. She can be known one way in public, use deriviatives and even have a private ID that states otherwise. Private info should always be just that: private. I don't know if she will contact the Foundation or Jimbo to make her preference known.

I became aware today that two dates exist for her birthdate. I knew about the 1950 one because I've seen the hidden template instructions. Looking at the article has the other one which supposedly is wrong. Again, it's up to Jagger to get it corrected by the Foundation.

Finally, if some editors are wondering if I am a stooge or parrot for Jimbo, I think you can tell by several sections up that I am a stooge for no one. I edit on the basis of WP:V - that which can be verified. However, the Foundation respects the rights of individuals with article on Wikipedia to suggest reasonable changes that will be examined for implementation. In one unnamed article, I disagreed totally with the Foundation's decision but in the end felt the individual had a privacy concern and that ultimately privacy should override WP:V in that instance. As I tell my friends, I don't suck; I bite. ----moreno oso (talk) 23:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

For the record, the issue with the name is not about Spanish naming conventions at all. The name "Morena" has no basis in fact of any kind, full stop. It is not a name from her family, misunderstood by non-Spanish sources, etc. It's just an error, traceable to People Magazine in 1979.

Additionally, nothing here should be construed as a Foundation intervention into this biography. I don't think the Foundation knows anything about this situation, and I am acting merely as a Wikipedian trying to improve Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the birth date, I'll see what I can find out. It seems that most "reliable" sources (the same ones which have demonstrable errors of fact, though, so I wonder) have said 1945. She says 1950, and more current sources tend to say 1950. The error didn't originate with us, if it is an error. For now, I think we should say 1950 but footnote that older sources say 1945, rather than the other way around, but I am comfortable with just being on pause for a little while longer until I get more information.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:50, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I stand corrected about the Foundation stuff.

Another editor visited my talkpage to see what my opinion on her name was on this matter. I replied basically the same as I did. The issue of the birthdate came up as well and I replied (hopefully) the same. If we can get it right, which should be the over-riding concern for Wikipedia, then that's what every editor should want to do. In my own personal life, I know how important my Dad's last name was to him and how the family wanted it pronounced. Additionally, my Mom had certain preferences too. Face is very important in the Hispanic and bear communities (moreno oso is brown bear in case you were wondering). ----moreno oso (talk) 15:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I brought up Spanish naming customs because I get a laugh from editors trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. As with any culture and language, there are always exceptions which was my real point. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: More possibly useful information

Information in this section is apparently not being used in the article, when it probably should be used in place of some info already shown in the article (i.e. Epiphany section). Best, --Discographer (talk) 15:06, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

What information are you talking about? The post on Wales talkpage had info that is not covered in any of the URLs cited. Until it can be found, as per Jimbo's observation, Wikipedia should stick to the facts. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:10, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Moreno, that's your own quote (the very first line of the entire section)! By the way, good research! Best, --Discographer (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Instead of starting a new section, it would have been best for continuity to stay in the original section.----moreno oso (talk) 15:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, this is a great example of the discussion on your talkpage. Jagger's article for the longest time was plagued by editors who could not get over her "perceived previous lifestyle or image". All it took was two or three editors to keep the logjam in place. When I subconsiously heard someone state, "Get over it", the reason why became very easy to discern and break apart piece-by-piece with verifiable citations. If in a nutshell, one or two bad apples can stink up any article, talkpage or even Wikipedia for that matter. ----moreno oso (talk) 13:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Birtdates 1945 versus 1950

If we were to use 1950 as her birth year (which is supported by both Bianca and Jade, but without official sources, so we can't even say that's true), this would only get reverted back to 1945 which has (so they say) "official" sources (though these "official" sources could also very well be "officially" incorrect)! This is not an easy edit to make, unless we can come up with an official source. Best, --Discographer (talk) 15:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

That's why I brought up the Foundation information. If a ticket is filled and info changed by them, the Foundation will leave a post on the talkpage.----moreno oso (talk) 15:33, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

New source for her name

Bianca told me on twitter what her birth name is. This is a real thorn in her side. Per the discussions up above, the error is traceable back to (at least) People Magazine in 1979.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for this information? Twitter is not a reliable source. How do we know you're not just making this up? Also, you seem to have protected the article for no apparent reason, in contravention of Wikipedia policy.--Meannews2 (talk) 03:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The source is valid. The protection is valid. Of course I didn't just make it up, don't be silly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Ms. Jagger has made a correction to her birth name on ICorrect: http://www.icorrect.com/browse_corrections_user/32 She considers the addition of "Morena" to her name to be a racist joke. "Morena" means brown-skinned and Ms. Jagger believes that someone added that to her name to make a link between her and the song "Brown Sugar". So, according to Ms. Jagger, anyone who adds "Morena" to her name is perpetuating a racist joke. Tgpaul58 (talk) 14:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 84.119.22.46, 23 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Film and Television

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/The_Fourth_Revolution:_Energy (2010, a documentary film about renewable energy)

84.119.22.46 (talk) 13:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Done Thanks! Qwyrxian (talk) 07:19, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 November 2012

In 2012, Bianca Jagger became the Ambassador of Plant a Pledge (http://plantapledge.com)a global initiative suported by Airbus and IUCN to restore 150 million hectares (an area almost three times the size of France) of degraded land by 2020.

Fer.sandra1 (talk) 13:45, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Done and thank you for the suggestion. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Small change needed -- 3/17/13

There's a change needed, simple issue of punctuation, but it's still nonetheless important for readability.

Bianca later said "My marriage ended on my wedding day".

...should read:

Bianca later said, "My marriage ended on my wedding day." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.46.210.21 (talk) 12:15, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Done Thank you! Scottyoak2 (talk) 08:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 August 2013

Bianca has indicated that she has never been a model -- it seems this wikipedia page may have been responsible for a Guardian article reporting otherwise.

Citation added. Scottyoak2 (talk) 11:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

My preliminary research indicates that Ms. Jagger's assertion that she has never been a model may be correct. The original UPI report in the 1979 may be the earliest source of the misinformation. The matter may have been publicly addressed by reliable sources many years ago. If anyone can locate verifiable sources, please join in. Scottyoak2 (talk) 15:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The People Magazine article of May 1977 covered the topic of Ms. Jagger's unsuitability for a modeling career. The UPI report of 1979 that indicates that she was a former model, appears to be erroneous, but I haven't been able to verify or refute the data. In any case, the statement is contentious to the subject and has been removed from the article. Regarding the comment that The Guardian may have used this article as its source: This assertion stems from a single comment on Twitter; the published reference to a former modeling career was in 1979 (long before Wikipedia existed). 'nuf said. Scottyoak2 (talk) 22:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

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add request info

|awards = Right Livelihood Award