Talk:Berlin Schönefeld Airport

Early discussion

The following statement in this article does not read well to the uninformed observer.

Because of its location outside of the city boundaries of Berlin, German aircraft (usually of the GDR airline Interflug, before German Lufthansa of the GDR) could take-off and land from Schönefeld (unlike Tegel and Tempelhof) due to the fact that Berlin was surrounded by the Iron Curtain during this time). With the reunification of Germany and Berlin, Tegel and Tempelhof could once again receive German aircraft as well.

Two points:

i) What on earth did Schönefeld being outside Berlin have to do with the ability of German aircraft to land there? Is the reader expected to have the same knowledge around this topic that the author has?

ii) Given that we are talking about the former division of Germany, terms like "German aircraft" are completely meaningless anyway. This needs clarified.

Kennethmac2000 15:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, Kennethmac2000, look like you're the ideal person to edit this article and improve it's quality. Remember, be bold! I would encourage you to go ahead and make the changes you suggest in this talk page. -- Fudoreaper 21:56:46, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

I don't know what the answer to (i) is! Kennethmac2000 13:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, i see. And neither do i, really, except that part of the city of berlin was under allied control, perhaps this airport was outside that zone of control, and thus usable by east german craft. Or something. hopefully someone else can clarify in a proper way. -- Fudoreaper 18:50:33, 2005-08-28 (UTC)

IIRC German aircraft was not allowed to land/take off in Berlin. That is why there was no German participation in the Berlin Airlift. Schönefeld was outside of the borders of Berlin. See History_of_Berlin#The_divided_city--Hhielscher 20:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It would really be very helpful if people could stop using the term 'German' in the context of a divided Germany. Do you mean West German, East German or both Hhielscher? Schönefeld was in East Germany, so presumably (although I may be wrong - which is why this has to be properly explained!) East German aircraft could quite happily land there. No?

I meant all of German aircraft.--Hhielscher 10:51, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

@Kennethmac2000:

i) Berlin was under an occupied regime of the 4 Allies between 1945 and 1990, the division into four sectors was a result of this. One part of the Allied agreement said that they would jointly control the Berlin airspace. As a consequence, only civilian and military aircraft of British, French, American or Soviet registration were allowed to land in any of the airports located within the city boundary. This rule did not apply outside the territory controlled by the 4 Allies, i.e. outside the boundary. This is one of the reasons the GDR chose Schönefeld as their main airport in the first place, so they could have Interflug aircraft land there.

ii) Admittedly, not just German aircraft were prohibited in Berlin, but all from non-Allied nations. Yet the term "German" as a term meaning "from East or West Germany" is perfectly valid, just as "Korean" today can mean "from North or South Korea". They may not have lived under the same government, but they shared the same nationality. And in this case, also the same restrictions applied. Anorak2 17:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Both articles talk about the same airport. The shorter article, which I'm proposing to merge into this one, is neither substantive nor broad enough to warrant its own article. thadius856_{talk|airports|neutrality} 03:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The new airport does merit its own article. This is not going to be a modernization of an existing airport. Instead, a new airport is going to be built immediately south of the existing airport. The only feature, the old and the new airport are going to share is runway 07R/25L, which will be expanded from 3000 m to 3600 m. All other parts of the existing airport are going to be demolished or renaturated. I'm planing to expand the article as soon as I have finished the maps for TXL and BBI. -- xGCU NervousEnergy 19:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

BER will be a result of concentrating all other airports activities in berlin into a completely new airport. In fact, the airport will be also given a new airport code (BER). Therefore BER is worth having is own article, since the other airports such as SXF, TXL and THF are still in use, have their own history and different future and need to treat independently.

Terminals

I would dispute that "all terminals are connected", having flown to/from SXF on several occasions. Certainly A and B are connected, sharing airside facilities, but C and D are, as far as I can tell, completely separate. Dmccormac (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Again a proposal to merge the articles. The old airport will disappear completely as the new airport takes over its site and one runway; although the two airports are not exactly the same, I don't see what two separate articles could add here, except confusion. Classical geographer (talk) 07:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

SXF was the main airport of communist East Germany, BBI stands for the Reunited Germany. So there Is pretty much of a difference. Citizens of Berlin will surely not agree that both airports are the same! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Per aspera ad Astra (talk • contribs) 15:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, but ideological motives shouldn't count in an encyclopedia... Classical geographer (talk) 12:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not just ideological motives. The two airports are going to play very different roles and both have their unique histories while at the same time are only going to share a single(!) physical feature – one of the runways. As someone who lives in Berlin, I think it would be far more confusing to try and represent two separate airports that just coincidentally happen to be at nearly the same location in a single article. I'll try to sum up the main aspects for both airports:

• Schönefeld started out as the airfield for the Henschel aircraft factory. After the second world war it was first transformed into an airfield for the soviet air force and was subsequently expanded to become the primary airport of the GDR and its capital (East) Berlin. After 1992 it became almost exclusively an airport for charter flights but today handles most of the low-cost traffic in Berlin. In the years to come, virtually all of this airport will disappear. As far as is foreseeable, the area of the old airport (with exemption of the south runway) will be completely re-developed.
• BBI started with a complete clean slate and has already build up a history of lawsuits, minor scandal and public opinion that has nothing to do with Schönefeld. The only thing that makes it have more in common with SXF than with the two other airports in Berlin is its close proximity and the sharing of a single runway to save construction costs. This map shows this quite clearly. BBI will take over the role of all three airports and is also intended to become a new third international hub along with Frankfurt and Munich.

A good comparison are Denver International Airport and Stapleton International Airport. Imagine that DIA had been build just to the north of Stapleton, reusing a single of the old runways. Would it still be the same airport? Geographically you might argue so, but I'd still say no. As with SXF/BBI, they each have their very own history, role architecture and structure. --xGCU NervousEnergy 17:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That sounds convincing. Let's scrap the merge then. So that means we have the following six articles on aviation in Berlin:

• the general article Airports in Berlin, describing the general history of the airports of the city;
• an article on the Berlin Blockade, which in covering that historic event also narrates the birth of some of the airports
• individual articles for the airports at Gatow, Tegel, Tempelhof, Schönefeld, and the new BBI.

Classical geographer (talk) 09:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move (September 2008)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 03:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Berlin-Schönefeld International Airport → Berlin-Schönefeld Airport — At the moment the naming of the three Berlin airports is inconsequent: There is Berlin-Tegel Airport (de), Tempelhof International Airport (de), and Berlin-Schönefeld International Airport (de). Acutally, none of them bears the word "International" in its official name, but all of them contain the word "Berlin" (see links to their Wikipedia articles in German). Therefore Tempelhof and Schönefeld should be renamed and moved consistently to Berlin-Tempelhof Airport and Berlin-Schönefeld Airport. — Komischn (talk) 22:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose Should probably be Schönefeld Airport, unless English uses something else; what should be easy enough to determine and provide evidence for. As WP:GERCON says, Wikipedia does not use the German-language system of hyphenating the subdivisions of municipalities, as this meaning is not intelligible in English, e.g. Spandau, not "Berlin-Spandau". So here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved to Berlin Schönefeld Airport. This is also consistent with the outcome of Talk:Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport#Requested_move_II.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 05:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Berlin-Schönefeld International Airport → Berlin Schönefeld Airport — The word International is not part of the name. While the English language does not use the hyphenating system as in <city>-<subdivision>, it does use a system of <city served> <actual location> (usually without hyphen, which would place the two names side-by-side) for airports as in London Heathrow Airport, Glasgow Prestwick Airport or Orlando Sanford International Airport. — 3247 (talk) 19:48, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Google (all searches limited to pages in English):

• "berlin-schönefeld-airport": 24.200 pages
• "berlin-schönefeld-international-airport": 1.470 pages
• "schönefeld-airport -berlin-schönefeld-airport": 39.500 pages
• "schönefeld-international-airport -berlin-schönefeld-international-airport": 1.070 pages

— 3247 (talk) 19:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

• There seems to have been 6 moves in a month, last august... 76.66.198.171 (talk) 20:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

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The New Berlin Brandenburg Airport

Schönefeld Airport will close in 03 June 2012.
Berlin opens a new airport.
Berlin Brandenburg Airport
Check it out ...;)
Aircraftmac (kontak) 11:19, 29 Augustus 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.210.52 (talk)

Bus connection

Expressbus to S-Südkreuz was withdrawn a few months ago due to lack of demand. I therefor deleted the reference to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.194.119.14 (talk) 04:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Landsat img in infobox well out of date

It still shows the eastern runway which was removed to build the A113 Sandisk26 (talk) 14:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

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Renamed, new pictures needed

Needs an image with the new text "BER Terminal 5".

See [1]

I know it is not actually in Berlin, but i think Wikimedians there will be closest. So I put that in the template. --Ysangkok (talk) 01:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Possible merger?

Should the article be merged with Berlin Brandenburg Airport since it turned out that the entire airport (including terminals) was integrated with the new airport to the south (albeit briefly)? Image2012 (talk) 07:25, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Note: discussion was continued at Talk:Berlin Brandenburg Airport#Merger proposal - IMSoP (talk)