Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven

Beethoven's Nationality

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Beethoven's family was from Austria and he even moved back to Vienna when he grew up, yet on Wikipedia, it calls him a German composer. He was not German, not even Prussian. He happened to live in Cologne for the beginning of his life, but he was and always will be an Austrian composer. Germany didn't even claim Beethoven to be German until the rise of Nazism. Calling Beethoven German is a common misconception nowadays. I was wondering if there was any reason it should be changed to "Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised...) was an Austrian composer and pianist." Thanks! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

It appears that most major reference sources, such as Grove Music, continue to refer to him as German. Do you have sources that use Austrian? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, his family was from Mechelen in Brabant, no? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I just looked at his family tree and his father was Austrian, but his mother was Prussian (German). Perhaps it should not read Austrian composer as I originally thought but Ludwig van Beethoven (…) was an Austrio-German composer and pianist. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

We can't look at the primary sources and interpret how we should refer to him - see WP:NOR. Instead we need to follow the secondary and tertiary literature, which as mentioned seems to use German. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Don't primary sources usually take precedent over secondary sources? Also, this brings to question why these secondary sources exist. When was he first referred to as German? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 16:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

No, they don't - see WP:PSTS. Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

But the Primary source is the rock-solid truth. Secondary sources are just interperations. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on what the majority of reliable secondary sources say. It may be hard to swallow, but things like "rock-solid truth" don't have any meaning for WP's purposes. Aza24 (talk) 20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Why, though? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Because of Wikipedia's three core content policies: neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. We summarize what secondary sources say, representing them proportionately; we don't declare absolute truths based on interpretation of primary sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not original research. It is a re-analysis of existing sources and solid facts. The "secondary" sources are more like quadrinary sources (possibly based on none other but our own wikipedia) I'm willing to compromise. We could call him an Austro-German composer. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Re-analysis of primary sources is, by our definition, original research. Do you have any secondary sources that refer to him as an Austro-German composer? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Quick question: why no original research? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

| Yes, wikipedia. (1st mention of beethoven) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Open wikis are not reliable sources, and WP:NOR is a core content policy. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there a reason why no original research is permitted? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a direct source which obviously provides evidence that Beethoven was at the very least part-Austrian Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Have you actually read WP:NOR? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I forget who once wrote something along the lines of "the great triumph of post-war Germany was to pursuade the world that Beethoven was German and Hitler Austrian". Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Beethoven was at least half-Austrian. He would've wanted to be reffered to as Austrian, heavily associating himself with the hapsburghs and their nation. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hitler on the other hand, was a German Nationalist. It is not the birthplace, but the ethnicity and ideology that make up the nationality. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

• Die Österreicher haben das Kunststück fertiggebracht, aus Beethoven einen Österreicher und aus Hitler einen Deutschen zu machen.
  • The Austrians have completed the feat of turning Beethoven into an Austrian, and Hitler into a German.
    • As quoted in DER SPIEGEL (16 May 1994))

From https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Billy_Wilder 84.158.232.73 (talk) 19:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Beethoven obviously preferred Austria and was never never set foot on Prussian (German) soil.

THe Austrians are kind of right. Beethoven had Austrian nationality,not German or Prussian. so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

In addition, "van Beethoven" means from the (Austrian) noble house of Beethoven. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Plus, he was born on Austrian soil. (even if it is modern-day Germany) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Bonn was Austro-Hungarian in the late 1700s. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense (A-H isn't even a term applicable for the Ancien Regime). It was in theory part of the HRE, but was ruled by the Archbishop-Elector, in 1770 Maximilian Friedrich von Königsegg-Rothenfels, later Beethoven's first employer. Johnbod (talk) 15:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The Ancien Regime was French. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 21:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Ancien Regime has been very widely used for over a century to cover all Continental monarchies before the French Revolution. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Austro-Hungary was a part of the Holy Roman Empire and if you look at a map of the 'HRE' in the late 18th century, you will find that they owned a sizable piece of land in the west that included the Lower Countries and Bonn. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 21:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The HRE didn't "own" its territories, except the few the emperor ruled directly, which didn't include Bonn. Please stop wasting people's time with your uninformed opinions. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born. His lineage was of Austrian royalty. He was Austrians. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Really. I wonder could you provide one single WP:RS source to support your somewhat surprising claim that "Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born"? I have just searched the article on Bonn for the word "Austria". How many instances do you think I found? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

His family was Austrian. His was Austrian nobility! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no mention of nobility at Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder? Beethoven's great-grandfather was a master baker? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

This is why he was not considered a servant in the Austrian courts Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

His family was regardless Austrian Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Flemish (part of Austria) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, he had lines through both his father and mother that led to upper Austria Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

"Upper Austria", eh? I see. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Upper Austria is the region in Modern-day Austria in between the Tyrolean alps and the fertile plain of Lower Austria. It is very hilly, but not as rocky as Tyrol. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Who was from there? Sorry, I've lost track. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC) p.s. did he think of himself as "Austrian" and describe himself that way? Thanks.

Through his mother mostly, Maria Magdalena Keverich, and yes, he demanded that the Austrian nobility respected him as one of them. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, there is no mention of Austria at that article? You might wish to direct your efforts first to that article, to clearly establish that she was "Austrian". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

He demanded to be known as an Austrian just like all of the nobles in Vienna. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Where's the source for that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:DNFTT. Magic♪piano 21:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It might be wise to hat this thread? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia discourages Superhatting Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia discourages endless pointless discussions. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

True, but if you look at genealogical records, you will find some compelling evidence. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Only you seem to find it "compelling". Everyone else here, so far, sees it as irrelevant. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Nobody has looked at the records so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Look below. It says he was flemish in origin. The flemish were part of Austria so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Even more evidence, making the V a lowercase was a germanisation. He couldn't have been german or his name wouldn't have had to be germanised. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe his signature varied over his lifetime? Or maybe he had a dodgy pen? Or maybe his hand slipped? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• User:Jaxon.t.allen, please read and absorb Wikipedia:Indentation. This thread is mostly you talking to yourself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, Jack Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Für Elise namesake discrepancy

In the article it is stated in regards to Therese Malfatti that "She is now remembered as the recipient of the piano bagatelle Für Elise.". However, the article for the piece states that "It is not certain who "Elise" was", and discusses in length about the possible identities. Perhaps it should be changed from "the recipient" to "a possible recipient"? Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 19:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussion about this Beethoven article specifically; these matters should be brought up at the respective articles in question Aza24 (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I brought it up here because I think the change should be made here. The other article seems to be pretty confident on the matter, so I think this article should be changed to match that one. Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I've added "possible" to this article. In any case, my point was (which I did not explain properly) that these articles are at very different states; the Beethoven article is rather rigorously cited to leading academic scholarship, while the Für Elise article is a host of random references to Alfred Music, Youtube, the New Yorker, hundred year old sources, etc. Aza24 (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Article class

I don't understand why this is only a class B article. The writing is good and there are a lot of sources. There are many articles about composers which are also class B and not nearly as good as this.

Is there something I'm missing? If not, I think we should vote for a reevaluation to have the article graded A, GA, or even featured. Cheers. Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Only certain WikiProjects have an A-class process, and as far as I know none of the relevant ones here do. GA and FA are not votes; GA status requires evaluation by a single reviewer against the GA criteria, whereas FA status requires a candidacy process involving multiple reviewers considering the FA criteria. In both cases nomination should be done by or with the agreement of the most significant contributors to the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Well the nomination would require someone who significantly contributed to this article and who is available to respond in a timely fashion for the next couple months, neither of which describes me. Do you know anyone who could do this? Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:50, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Trouble finding reliable sources

I'm trying to add information to Beethoven's legacy section, however I'm having trouble finding reliable sources which give good information. When I use google I run into articles which aren't reliable and when I use google scholar all of the sources are locked behind a paywall. And, yes, I tried looking into the sources section of the wikipedia guides. What can I do? Wikieditor662 (talk) 09:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps if you explain specifically what are you seeking to source, other editors will offer suggestions. - kosboot (talk) 10:39, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, I would like to have his legacy section be of similar quality to that of Josquin. I would probably need information on how he influenced the romantic era (and how significant he was to it), how he inspired other composers, and how influential he is today. Wikieditor662 (talk) 11:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

JSTOR will let you access some things for free. Older surveys than Taruskin's are often of good quality and won't be terribly dated if they were written in the 1980s. And on a figure as continuously and widely celebrated as Beethoven, even older material has likely aged well. Some would be available on the Internet Archive. Libraries are great, especially if you can use them electronically.

I would probably look at the top of what turned up in this search, especially the Cambridge Companion articles and what they cite: https://archive.org/search?query=Beethoven+reception

This article may be helpful: https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~repercus/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/repercussions-Vol.-2-No.-2-Pederson-Sanna-On-the-Task-of-the-Music-Historian.pdf

Most of what Pederson cited is probably available on internetarchive.org if you wanted to dig deeper. It might be challenging to be navigate and describe the changing historiographical perspectives. MONTENSEM (talk) 22:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

For this sort of thing books are probably better than articles. I'd suggest seeing what you can access from those in the Further reading or References at Romantic music, or here. Johnbod (talk) 17:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Definitely books. The thing is, in a sense, Beethoven influenced all of music after him, so it's going to be a bit of work to find "the most reliable" sources. I would start with Grove, and then branch out to the most well-known books of music history (e.g. Taruskin). Once you start such a section, lots of editors will probably love to add lots of trivia ("the first 4 notes of symphony no. 5 appear in ....") so I would try to place limits on a legacy section to the most reliable sources (e.g. no articles, blog posts or other ephemera) and perhaps only books from recognized scholars. - kosboot (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

"In a sense, Beethoven influenced all of music after him"

The problem is that single statements like this are sometimes difficult to find in a book, as there is so much material covered. Wikieditor662 (talk) 16:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

There's some Wikipedia policy or guidance about not having to cite a source for the sky being blue (not sure where to find it, but I've come across it). Rarely will anyone publish things as boring or in as flat a way as "the sky is blue", because what does it really tell you ...

These kinds of statements are both strong (general) and weak (vague). The task then is to specify or to get particular about what they are summarizing. That usually means balancing multiple perspectives and finding whatever underlying or shared consensus there is ... MONTENSEM (talk) 23:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Try Oxford Bibliographies via the WP:TWL Aza24 (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

• The thing is, there is no major composer after Beethoven (or even during his lifetime) who was NOT directly or indirectly influenced by him, so there is probably little point in trying to reference individual composers. He did not undergo a period of obscurity and then reconsideration like Josquin; Beethoven lived at a time when music was easily and prolifically published, disseminated, and performed nationally and internationally, and he was a noted soloist performer as well (generally of his own works). What is more important, and easier to cite, is that Beethoven was (is nearly universally considered) the beginning of the Romantic era in music, in fact, he is seen to have virtually invented it and to bridge the Classical and Romantic eras. That is much easier to cite. Softlavender (talk) 00:02, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

  Referencing individual composers is still valuable; the connection Brahms or Mahler felt to Beethoven is a crucial theme in music historiography, much more so than say Beethoven's influence on Grieg or Tchaikovsky. Aza24 (talk) 01:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

  Mentioning two major composers out of hundreds implies that those other hundreds were not influenced by Beethoven, which would be entirely false. Those (carefully and authoritatively cited) mentions belong in the wiki articles on Brahms or Mahler, not as trivia in the article on the arguably most influential composer of all time. Softlavender (talk) 02:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

  Trivia, really? Rather dismissive for no particular reason.

  A quick read through Beethoven's legacy section in Grove mentions numerous individuals. Direct influence ≠ indirect influence. Yes, he indirectly influenced everyone, as you say. Beethoven's direct influence on Brahms, Schumann, Wagner etc. is infinitely more important than his direct influence on Chopin, Tchaikovsky etc. These last two had vastly more influence from other composers (e.g. Mozart, Schumann), which is not comparable to the central place Beethoven placed in the works of Brahms/Schumann/Bruckner etc. Aza24 (talk) 03:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

• For a source for a summary statement, a sweeping overview, I'd suggest using the New Grove, because that's what it does. See for example Scott G. Burnham's summary in section 19 of the Beethoven article in the 2001 NG, from which this is a small extract: "The Beethoven we know today cannot be separated from the history of his critical and popular reception. No other Western composer has been amplified to the same degree by posterity; and none has come to embody musical art the way Beethoven has. More than a composer, he remains one of the pre-eminent cultural heroes of the modern West." And so forth. There's lots there. And then go to the major books about him. Antandrus (talk) 00:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)