Talk:Bagua

On the relation to other doctrines

I am on the opinion that the full poem removed between these revisions https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Bagua&type=revision&diff=1087564160&oldid=1087557898 should not be removed.

This is the part I consdier important enough to track down the sources of this and put it back. Regretably I am in no position to pursue this research.

無極生有極、 有極是太極、 太極生兩儀、 即陰陽。 兩儀生四象: 即少陰、太陰、 少陽、太陽、 四象演八卦、 八八六十四卦。[citation needed]

Wújí shēng yǒují, yǒují shì tàijí. Tàijí shēng liǎngyí, jí yīnyáng. Liǎngyí shēng sìxiàng: jí shǎoyīn, tàiyīn, shǎoyáng, tàiyang Sìxiàng yǎn bāguà, bā bā liùshísì guà

The Limitless (無極; Wuji) produces the Delimited (有極; Youji),   and this Delimited is equivalent to the Highest Limit (太極; Taiji), or the Absolute.   The Taiji (i.e. the two opposing forces in embryonic, unmanifested form) produces two forms Liangyi (兩儀),   namely yin-yang(陰陽), the manifested opposing forces.   These two forms produce four phenomena:   namely: lesser yin (少陰, shaoyin), and greater yin (太陰, taiyin, which also refers to the Moon);   lesser yang (陽, shaoyang), and greater yang (太陽, taiyang, which also refers to the Sun).   The four phenomena (四象; sìxiàng) act on the eight trigrams (八卦; Bagua).   Eight 'eights' results in sixty-four hexagrams.[citation needed]

189.216.170.118 (talk) 15:55, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Growing up I heard and read the "full poem" more often than the earliest version preserved in Book of Changes. Still, on wikipedia information must be sourced. So please "pursue this research" & cite reliable sources for information which you deem appropriate & relevant to add. Thanks beforehand! Erminwin (talk) 15:02, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

nationsonline.org not reliable

nationsonline.org's bagua review page (https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/Chinese_Customs/bagua.htm) is anonymous and unsourced. While quite possibly accurate, I don't think we can consider it reliable without knowing who wrote it and where they obtained their info. Jojalozzo (talk) 22:44, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Thatchedhut (talk) 18:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I've removed it. Remsense留 18:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Sequence

0 at the base, 7 at the top, 1 to 3 on the right, 4 to 6 on the left

Is the bottom line the least or most significant binary digit? Currently the sequence given has Thunder as 001 and Mountain as 100, with a suggestion that they be reversed. When an binary number is written the most significant digit leads the sequence of digits. But in counting numbers one starts low and moves higher. The current correspondence concurs with the counting sequence when the bottom line indicates the least significant digit. Rgdboer (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Why is this image, the bagua, not in the article?! 80.187.104.217 (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

See Octal#Usage for the sequence according to Leibnitz. — Rgdboer (talk) 00:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@Rgdboer: Using Leibniz's method would still yield 0 = ☷ at the bottom and 7 = ☰ at the top but not "1 to 3 on the right, 4 to 6 on the left". The results would be:

3 = ☱	7 = ☰	6 = ☴
5 = ☲	☯	2 = ☵
1 = ☳	0 = ☷	4 = ☶

EDIT: Meanwhile, using the conversion method, given in the Shanghai Daily's article "Understanding Bagua sequence" (December 6, 2015), would yield "0 at the base, 7 at the top, 1 to 3 on the right, 4 to 6 on the left":

6 = ☱	7 = ☰	3 = ☴
5 = ☲	☯	2 = ☵
4 = ☳	0 = ☷	1 = ☶

Erminwin (talk) 15:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Reading a mandala proceeds from the outside to the inner core (according to that article). For example, the lower right position has bagua for thunder, not mountain. Thus reading right side first, then left. Rgdboer (talk) 22:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Rgdboer:

the lower right position has bagua for thunder, not mountain.

@Rgdboer: You mean 艮 gèn ☶ ? I'm sure 艮 gèn ☶ represents mountain" 艮為山 Shuo Gua 17 while ☳ 震 zhèn (in the lower left) represents "thunder" 震為雷 Shuo Gua 13. Erminwin (talk) 18:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The image is a mandala and the outer lines (yin or yang) form the bottom of the bagua. The inner lines are the top of the bagua. — Rgdboer (talk) 22:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Rgdboer::

the outer lines (yin or yang) form the bottom[sic] of the bagua.

I'm 100% sure that "the outer lines (yin or yang) form the tops of the bagua".

If the outer lines form the bottoms of the bagua, then that shall result in:

兌 duì "marsh" incorrectly being ☴ (下斷 "broken below") instead of ☱ (上缺 "flawed above") ☱兌上缺

巽 xùn "wind" incorrectly being ☱ (上缺 "flawed above") instead of ☴ (下斷 "broken below") ☴巽下斷

震 zhèn "thunder" incorrectly being ☶ (覆碗 "face-down bowl") instead of ☳ (仰盂 "face-up jar") ☳震仰盂

艮 gèn "mountain" incorrectly being ☳ (仰盂 "face-up jar") instead of ☶ (覆碗 "face-down bowl") ☶艮覆碗

Source is 八卦取象歌 "Song about how the Eight Trigrams Obtain Their Images" in 易經解 "Explaining the Zhou's (Classic of) Changes" by Zhu Xi.

Erminwin (talk) 14:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

OK, yes, given the character labels, bagua-line-sequence is inside to outside, contrary to what was written. In this case, the comment "A mandala generally represents the spiritual journey, starting from outside to the inner core, through layers" does not apply to this arrangement of bagua. Please excuse my error. Rgdboer (talk) 22:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Expanding topics

Right now, there's mostly info on technical details, and on fengshui context. It'd be great if there could be summaries of trigram use in other contexts such as meditation, medicine, etc. Zhiguatu (talk) 15:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)