Talk:Badr al-Din Lu'lu'

Formatted sources

• Amitai-Preiss, Reuven (1995). Mongols and Mamluks: the Mamluk-Īlkhānid War, 1260-1281. Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization. Cambridge University Press. pp. +. ISBN 0521522900. 17, 46n, 57, 60, 63

• Berchem, Max van (1906). Monuments et inscriptions de lʾatābek Luʾluʾ de Mossoul. Gieszen. pp. +.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

• Cahen, Claude (2008). "Luʾluʾ, Badr al-Dīn Abu 'l-Faḍāʾil al-Malik al-Raḥīm". In P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs (ed.). Encyclopaedia of Islam (Second ed.). Brill. Retrieved 2008-12-28.{{cite encyclopedia}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)

• Cahen, Claude (1968). Pre-Ottoman Turkey: A general survey of the material and spiritual culture and history c. 1071-1330. New York: Taplinger. p. +. ISBN 159740456X. 123 128

• Canard, M. (2008). "Luʾluʾ". In P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs (ed.). Encyclopaedia of Islam (Second ed.). Brill. Retrieved 2008-12-29. Luʾluʾ ("pearl"), a noun often given as proper name to a person of servile origin{{cite encyclopedia}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)

• Patton, Douglas (1991). Badr al-Dīn Lu'lu: Atabeg of Mosul, 1211-1259. Occasional papers, Middle East Center of the Jackson School of International Studies, University of Washington. Seattle: University of Washington Press. pp. +. ISBN 0295971568.

• Patton, Douglas (1991). "Badr al-Dīn Lu'lu' and the Establishment of a mamluk Government in Mosul". Studia Islamica. 74. Paris: Maisonneuve & Larose: 79–103. ISSN 0585-5292. Retrieved 2008-12-22.

• Rice, D. S. (Apr., 1953). "The Aghānī Miniatures and Religious Painting in Islam". Burlington Magazine. 95 (601). London: Burlington Magazine Publications, Ltd.: 128–135. ISSN 0007-6387 0007-6287 0007-6387. Retrieved 2009-01-04. {{cite journal}}: Check |issn= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)

• Rice, D. S. (1950). "The Brasses of Badr al-Dīn Lu'lu'". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. 13 (No. 3). Cambridge University Press on behalf of the School of Oriental and African Studies: 627–634. ISSN 0041-977X. Retrieved 2008-12-22. {{cite journal}}: |issue= has extra text (help)

• Thorau, Peter (1992). The Lion of Egypt: Sultan Baybars I and the Near East in the Thirteenth Century. trans. by P. M. Holt. London: Longman. p. 63. ISBN 0582068223.

• Zambaur, Edward von (1914). "Nouvelles contributions à la numismatique orientale: Atabeks de Mausil". Numismatische Zeitschrift. 47. Vienna: Selbstverlag der Gesellschaft: 152–157.

Plethora of objects

I think that we might have rather too many images of manufactured objects. For example, are two brass ewers necessary? I can see the relevance of the coin, coins are referred to in the text or something inscribed with the name of the emir, also one image to illustrate the high level of craftsmanship in Mosul at the time would be appropriate. However, this is a biographical article about a ruler, not an article on art and manufacture in 13th century Mosul. As such, cluttering it with images of objects is not appropriate -for example, the article on Elizabeth II does not have an image of a mini, a mini skirt or a Hockney. Urselius (talk) 10:50, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Urselius: Was about to make a section on this. This article is a nightmare to read, so messy - most sections have more images than text. Since your comment, पाटलिपुत्र has added even more images. @पाटलिपुत्र: This is not a gallery, when are you going to start doing better in terms of image adding? Seriously, no improvements have been made since 2016 - in fact, I would argue it's gotten worse. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

It is obvious that @पाटलिपुत्र: is not engaging with the criticisms of his addition of so many images with little or no connection to the subject of the article. Perhaps getting other editors involved and having a vote on the appropriate number and type of illustrations would be a way forward? Urselius (talk) 08:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The most relevant information is not always in the form of text. In the case of this ruler (Badr al-Din Lu'lu'), a lot of very interesting information is available in visual form (works of art, manuscripts, which have reached us in astounding quality and quantities), whereas, on the contrary, available textual information is quite limited. For some historical figures, it is the contrary: lots of text is available, but visual artifacts from their period can be extremely few (even Muhammad of Ghor is hard to illustrate with relevant imagery!). Here, all images are properly commented upon in captions, and usually sourced, and are very valuable in their own right. These objects are what makes Badr al-Din Lu'lu' remarkable as a ruler. Maybe it's better to think of it as an article on visual arts, since visual arts are so central to Badr al-Din Lu'lu' 's historical standing... Were it not for his amazing sponsorship of artistic works (he was himself an analphabet...), he would be virtually unknown and unremembered.पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 08:52, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The most cogent response is that, as you have pointed out, Lulu was a relatively obscure ruler and that the article is meant to be biographical. The inclusion of images of a coin from his reign, of buildings he caused to be built, portraits and anything cultural he directly commissioned are all appropriate. However, inclusion of objects or manuscripts that just happened to be made during his reign are not appropriate. There also needs to be a balance between the amount of text and the number of illustrations, which I feel is not the case at the moment. If you wish to make use of all these images, perhaps creating an article on art and manufacture in 13th century Mosul, or the Jazira as a whole, might be the best approach. Urselius (talk) 11:46, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

"The most relevant information is not always in the form of text."

I might had believed this was the case here if you didn't try to turn every single article into a gallery. Even if this was the case that's not an excuse to make an article about a ruler into a gallery. Again, please read WP:GALLERY - I'm afraid the WP:ROPE is running out. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)