Talk:Allen Dulles

Copyright violation

A user copied-and-pasted from https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/95unclass/100Days.html into the middle of this article. It appears to be a copyright violation, and it does not at all work with the flow of the article. I'm going to delete.

Quadell 16:03, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Citing a .gov article is not plagerism as long as they cited the passage. Instead of deleting the passage, all that needed to be done was direct the citation to the .gov webpage in accordance to Wikipedia guidelines.

I am just wondering why nobody has every seemed to mention the name of Elenor Dulles who as far as i can remember was responsable for Checkpoint Charlie or the Berlin desk. Why is this the case. If we are indeed talking about the Dulles family which is a possiblity of where and why I wound up at Allen Foster Dulles and John Foster Dulles does this wonderful woman who made a wonderful sacrifice patriotically for her nation not be mentioned.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.54.82.167 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 4 June 2004 (UTC)

* The article is about Allen Dulles, not the Dulles Family. But, maybe you should mention Elenor Dulles (Allen's wife?) and create a link to an article about her.--AI 23:35, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Allen or Alan?

If it's Allen, the spelling should be changed back. If it's Alan, the page should be moved. Quadell (talk) 14:55, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

It has been almost a year, and no response to Quadell's comment. Is it Allen or Alan?--AI 02:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just found out about this from someone calling him "Allen" so that's my vote. BriEnBest 03:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The correct name is "Allen Welsh Dulles". The exhaustive biography by Peter Grose, "Gentleman Spy", resolves many of the issues raised on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awd110 (talk • contribs) 13:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Errors

I just cleaned up a couple somewhat exaggerated claims. First off this article mentioned Operation Mockingbird as if it was a generally acknowledged event. In fact, if you look at that article's talk page you'll discover that we had trouble verifying the program's existance. It doesn't seem to be widely believed in outside conspiracy theory circles.

Second, this article described Operation Northwoods as a proposal to kill American citizens and frame Cuba. Our article on that proposal says nothing about killing any Americans, and at most suggests the possibility of making wounding attacks on Cuban expatriates. Isomorphic 04:39, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I rarely see his middle name mentioned. Do you think this should just be at Allen Dulles? john k 03:33, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Several comments: Firstly, It would probably be better if this were at Allen Dulles with a redirect from the full name. Secondly, the article says that he was the first DCI and the table at the bottom of the article says that Gen. McCone was his predecssor; it doesn't make sense that both could be right. Thirdly, I don't think that his brother John Foster Dulles was the "main shareholder in the United Fruit Company" as the article states, this is more conspiracy theory. (This is not to deny all connection between the Dulles family and United Fruit; it is apparently an established fact that the brother of John Foster Dulles' assistant secretary for Latin America was the brother of United Fruit Co.'s president, which is significant, but hardly makes the article's allegation true.) Before correcting this, I wanted to mention this on the talk page and attempt to get other comments.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rlquall (talk • contribs) 17:05, 20 November 2004 (UTC)

Significant error in text regarding Dulles' firing: the article mentions Dulles being fired over Operation Northwoods in 1961. The problem here is that Northwoods was not developed until March of 1962. Dulles was fired over the Bay of Pigs, after a decent interval. Northwoods was a Defense Dept. proposal requested by Edward Lansdale, who was running Operation Mongoose out of the White House. Neither the CIA nor Dulles had anything to do with Northwoods.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.114.98 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Allen W. Dulles was the first CIVILIAN director of the Central Intelligence Agency. His predecessor was General Walter Bedell Smith, not a civilian. 71.116.217.242 21:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

This article fails to mentions Dulles' extensive links to the German industrial sector, including many leading Nazi figures, both before, during and after WW2, nor does it address the many accusations made against him concerning his Nazi allegiences. It also fails to address the significant clashes between Dulles and Kennedy that led to his first dismissal, nor does it explain how he managed to get himself reinstated as head of the CIA after Kennedy's death, nor does it expand on Dulles' contribution to the expanded US role in foreign conflicts. NWilhelm 31Jul06— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.18.249 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur with NWilhelm, and further must say that to call A.D. "An early foe of Hitler...." looks like intentional disinformation. My source, which is Tarpley, whose book is free to read on the web (the relevant chapter is Chapter - II - The Hitler Project, shows documentary evidence that Allen as well as John Foster were lawyers for Brown Bros. Harriman during the years when that firm, guided by Prescott Bush, operated Vereinigte Stahlwerke, the Hamburg-Amerika Line, Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, and with Fritz Thyssen provided better than 50% of the steel plate to the Nazi machine, as well as significant percentages of other steel products, money laundering, shipping, gold, &c. Remember that the firm was duly busted in 1943 under the Trading with the Enemy Act. A cursory Google seems to corroborate Tarpley's summary, and his notes are precise and abundant, as this one regarding A.D.:

26. Annual Report of Hamburg-Amerika, op. cit.

Baron Rudolph Schroeder, Sr. to Averell Harriman, Nov. 14, 1932. K[night] W[ooley] handwritten note and draft reply letter, Dec. 9, 1932.

In his letter, Baron Rudolph refers to the family's American affiliate, J. Henry Schroder [name anglicized], of which Allen Dulles was a director, and his brother John Foster Dulles was the principal attorney.

Baron Bruno Schroder of the British branch was adviser to Bank of England Governor Montagu Norman, and Baron Bruno's partner Frank Cyril Tiarks was Norman's co-director of the Bank of England throughout Norman's career. Kurt von Schroeder was Hjalmar Schacht's delegate to the Bank for International Settlements in Geneva, where many of the financial arrangements for the Nazi regime were made by Montagu Norman, Schacht and the Schroeders for several years of the Hitler regime right up to the outbreak of World War II.

--ProudPrimate 14:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• More by the proud primate is at Talk:Allen Welsh Dulles/debunking. -- RHaworth 14:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It was stated in this article that "Dulles died of influenza, complicated by pneumonia". If Dulles had pneumonia, that's what killed him - not the flu. Pneumonia is far more dangerous to one's health than the flu. Of course, if he had the flu at the same time, that hurt his chances for recovery, but recovery from the flu typically takes a week or less, while recovery from pneumonia takes much longer. If he contracted the flu followed by pneumonia, the flu was probably a non-issue by the time he died, and certainly more benign. So, the phrase should read, "Dulles died of pneumonia".

Dave M —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.139.137 (talk) 13:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

New at this so please forgive me but I was shocked at first this person that had many purported ties to Nazi Germany discovered the "Protocols of Zion" as false yet the discovery is credited to another individual is credited (Philip Graves) on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion Wikipedia page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Beandipwashere (talk • contribs) 09:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

The U-2 is most decidedly NOT a "supersonic" airframe. The aspect ratio of its wings is entirely too high for them to survive supersonic speeds. -- 66.171.7.245 (talk) 11:10, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Allen Walsh Plagiarism

While researching Allen Dulles I came across this site from CNN that has the exact same text as the Wikipedia Article. Neither source seems to reference to either source; therefore, somewhere along the line plagiarism has occurred

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/kbank/profiles/allen.dulles/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.148.229.234 (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

"Dulles Plan"

I always though that Dulles plan is the work of John Dulles, not Allen. The reference seems misplaced. Am I wrong?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.13.100.3 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I can find no references to the Dulles Plan anywhere. --Purpleslog 12:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I am currently reading a book by Valeriy Vladimirovich Sinelnikov called "Secret power of the Word. Formula of Love. How words affect our lives". The book is in Russian. It was published in 2006. ISBN 5-9524-2375-2. On page 81 he "quotes" Allen Dulles. He says the quote is from a document dated 1945 called "American doctrine on battle against USSR". He does not mention the words “Dulles’ Plan” but the essence of the “quote” is what’s described in the article. I’ve googled it in Russian and in English. There is nothing on the web in English. But tons of articles in Russian. Some are dispelling the authenticity of the text; others are urging Russians to unite against the tyranny of USA. April 16, 2009— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.162.228.12 (talk • contribs) 11:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Dulles comes off a big hero. Really?

I've read in several books on WWII that Allen Dulles was a reliably ani-Semitic voice in FDR's administration. No sign of that in this Wiki article. Written by a Dulles fan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.231.207 (talk) 16:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC) Allen Dulles was based in Switzerland during World War II - yet the books you have read make him some big antisemitic voice in FDR's Administration in Washington, did it ever occur to you that these books might not be accurate?91.107.240.17 (talk) 13:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't pretend like you don't know what he is saying. Allen Dulles was notoriously sympathetic to Nazism and had a major role in Operation Paperclip. The fact that this article attempts to present him in a positive light is actually quite shocking and truly preposterous. Acteron (talk) 06:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Nazi association

I removed the following text from the article:

Dulles worked closely with Arabist and British intelligence double agent Jack Philby to funnel Saudi oil to the Nazi regime. In the 1930's Dulles established an interlocking financial network among Nazi Corporations, American oil men and the Saudis. Dulles also led a team of American and British investors that funded the early Nazi Party and continued to do business with the Nazis throughout world War II. Dulles worked behind the scenes with Philby and the Nazis to thwart Jewish emigration to Palestine. Additionally, Dulles' activities on behalf of clients having ties to Nazi Germany before and during the War exposed him to charges of collaborating with the Nazis. Former Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg stated "The Dulles boys were traitors". At the end of the war and immediately afterward, Dulles evaded Allied surveillance and directed the smuggling of Nazi money back to his Western Clients.

I'm not by any means an expert on Dulles, but this information seems to contradict the preceding paragraphs. If there are sources for these allegations, I'd love the see them. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 23:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is the proof that Dulles was an early foe of Hitler? Otto Lehmann-Russbeldt writes in his book Aggression:

On January 4, 1933, Hitler was invited to the Schroeder Bank by a group of industrialists. The industrialists gave Hitler the money to overcome his financial problems in turn for a pledge to break the trade unions. Present at this meeting were two Americans John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles.

http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2003/08/431.txt

This seems to contradict the claim that Dulles was an early foe of Hitler. How could he be an early foe of Hitler while conducting business with him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennybenners (talk • contribs) 21:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

A few short clips from Tabletmag http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/143053/hitlers-american-banker

A small part (fair use) showing Dulles relationship - Nazi banking:

McKittrick was a lawyer by training with no direct experience of central banking McKittrick a graduate of Harvard University and a graduate of the St. Louis University School of Law McKittrick close to Emil Puhl, the Reichsbank vice-president, whom McKittrick described as his friend When visiting the USA in Dec 1942 McKittrick was denied permission to return to Basel. While waiting for his passport he was debriefed by OSS about intelligence gleaned Nazi contacts. McKittrick was able to reveal Hitler, had become indecisive. McKittrick detailed his role as a back-channel between anti-Nazi Germans and the United States. McKittrick returned to Basel in April 1943. Despite his lobbying and John Foster Dulles’ legal advice, the BIS’s bank’s funds in the United States remained frozen McKittrick’s old friend Allen Dulles ran the Swiss branch of the OSS. McKittrick, also known as OSS codename 644, regularly met with Dulles and American Ambassador Leland Harrison. The three men, McKittrick recalled, talked more freely “in those meetings than at any other time.” Dulles and Harrison wanted to know everything McKittrick knew, especially about Nazi money channels. McKittrick, they discovered, knew a lot. For example, the BIS held gold for the Reichsbank, so sometimes, when the interest was due on the bank’s investments, the BIS simply helped itself to the Nazi gold it held to make up the payments. At other times, the Germans borrowed BIS gold for their dealings with Swiss banks. This cozy arrangement caused no concern at the BIS, said McKittrick, as “we knew that they’d replace it.” McKittrick’s close relationship with Emil Puhl, the vice president of the Reichsbank, was especially valued by Dulles and the OSS.

Yes, according to several different sources (2 of them books) there definitely was a Nazi association of both Dulles brothers. See the following sources:

• Princess Diana: the hidden evidence by Jon King and John Beveridge, S.P.I. Books, 2001, ISBN 978-1561719228, page 130
• The Nazi hydra in America: suppressed history of a century by Glen Yeadon and John Hawkins, Progressive Press, 2008, ISBN 978-0-930852-43-6, page 366–371
• Ratlines: The CIA & the Nazis, another version of the same chapter of the book cited above, on the site of its author (Glen Yeadon).
• Allen Dulles, the Nazis, and the CIA by Cory Panshin, March 2005
• Nazis in the attic by Randy Davis, May 2000

I think that the section "Background in intelligence" needs to be rewritten since the statement that Dulles was a "foe" of Hitler is central to it and this couldn't be corrected by simple editing. The more so that in its current form, it doesn't cite any reference. --Лъчезар (talk) 17:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems like the last paragraph of this section belongs elsewhere -- what does anti-communism have to do with the section's subject heading?--Jrm2007 (talk) 07:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Turner (Yale) long ago showed that most Nazi money came from small donations, they did not need big business (although some big business enterprises did try and do deals with them when the Naxi rise to power looked inevitable).

As for Allen Dulles being pro Nazi - that is B.S., extreme even by the standards of Marxist agitprop.91.107.240.17 (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

CFR high ranking official

Some mention should be added to this WP article that A. W. Dulles was a high ranked official of the CFR. I was reading the Dick Cheney WP article and on the ref for Cheney's mention in the CFR ("The Council on Foreign Relations from 1921 to 1996 - Historical Roster of Directors and Officers") is listed A. W. Dulles too. This is important because some believe that the CFR and Royal Institute for International Affairs heavily influence domestic and world politics, and events, including CIA, and MI6 activities. Oldspammer (talk) 00:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"CIA: Marker of Policy or Tool?............. April 25, 1966

I can't find this article in the NYT archives. Can anyone else?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.91.24.62 (talk) 15:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

How to do a Google search... First search "new york times". The NYT site link is returned along with a sub search mini form. Use this form to search for your string of "CIA ...". However, you made a mistake and entered in goofy stuff. It is "policy maker" not "policy marker". The search, when corrected a bit, ends up with the following link: http://spiderbites.nytimes.com/pay_1966/articles_1966_04_00000.html This page is a huge listing of pay per view articles. The exact story's name is 88 to 92 percent down the page and appears as follows: "C.I.A.: Maker of Policy, or Tool?; Survey Finds Widely Feared Agency Is Tightly Controlled The C.I.A.: ..." that links the pay per view article. The key reason that you might not have found anything is the nonsense phrase that you used to search with... 99.224.61.118 (talk) 21:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Frank Wisner

In the part titled "Background in Intelligence", the following is stated about Frank Wisner:

"Wisner became the right hand of Dulles to overthrow Iranian’s President Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953 because of Oil business, to overthrow Guatemala’s democratically-elected President Jacobo Arbenz in 1954 for its intent to expropriate four hundred thousand acres from the United Fruit Company and later, in 1973, the Chilean’s democratically-elected President Salvador Allende for nationalizing several USA companies."

The last part doesn't seem correct, knowing that Wisner committed suicide in 1965.––83.134.105.162 (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit Template

This article has multiple grammatical and punctuation issues that significantly affect the article's readability and meaning. Accordingly, I've added a {{Cleanup}} template. -- 155.97.192.16 (talk) 00:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, copyediting is needed, and I have done some, but there are problems with the point of view and accuracy of the information, too. I will leave those to other editors who are more familiar with the subject. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:01, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

J. Henry Schroder bank?

The lede says "Allen W. Dulles was one of the directors of the J. Henry Schroder bank." What bank is that? Why is it important enough to be mentioned in the lede? Is there a source? --DThomsen8 (talk) 20:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

New paragraph on Nazi affiliations

I've looked up some reviews on the source for this section (John Loftus & Mark Aarons, The Secret War Against the Jews (1994)) and they, the reviews, are quite critical, especially regarding unnamed sources and attribution. I'd like this info to be verified by a second source. Otherwise, it falls afoul of WP:NPOV. The Interior (Talk) 01:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it is a matter of verifiability, not lack of NPOV.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.71.78 (talk • contribs) 13:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the section filled with Nazi conspiracy theories. The authors of the provided sources are political radicals and known conspiracy theorists who use questionable and anonymous sources. The provided "additional sources" on this talk page seem to also be overly political and not even close to what constitutes a reliable source. Please do not re-add this information without first finding reliable sources to back the claims per WP:FRINGE and WP:RS. TomPointTwo (talk) 19:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

That entire section was sourced to a single book that's been cited as controversial, to say the least [1]. That's way too much WP:WEIGHT given a WP:FRINGE opinion. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Aarons

I am not sure that Aarons has any proof of his theories. No details appear in the actual Wikipedia article that are remotely checkable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.71.78 (talk) 12:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Dulles-Kennedy

What is the basis for the statement "Dulles vast experience and skill proved equally useful when President Kennedy appeared to be seeking détente with the U.S.S.R, Cuba and in Vietnam."? Was he not fired by Kennedy specifically because Kennedy was weary of Dulles (and cohorts) acting in direct contradiction to Kennedy's policy goals, particularly as regards détente with USSR and Cuba? Dulles' involvement in the Bay of Pigs fiasco provided only a politically acceptable means for Kennedy to finally remove him from his post, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.226.186.66 (talk) 16:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Even aside from this, with Biden now also refusing to open the documents about the Kennedy assassination - and let's simply ignore any conspiracies; that many documents are STILL not open to the public is a FACT - I think the article should be expanded in regards to Dulles (all of them) versus Kennedy. It's simply a historic aspect as well, in particular when you look at the different arguments (e. g. the Bay of Pigs situation to give one example). 2A02:8388:1604:F600:0:0:0:4 (talk) 23:34, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The documentary "JFK Revisited" by Oliver Stone has a lot more information, using the declassified files at the National Archives, regarding Dulles. I'm going to re-watch it at a later date, mine it for details, and then try to find the primary sources to add information to this article.jlcoving (talk) 02:49, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

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Black operations

Quote:"In 1950, Smith recruited Dulles to oversee the agency's covert operations as Deputy Director for Plans." It says 1950 but in the article is mentioned 1951, Jan. the 1st. Is it all true,man I can't believe my eyes... FNH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.173.42.108 (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

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Dulles and the UFC

Just an FYI, but it's pretty clear that Galeano got Dulles and his predecessor Walter Bedell Smith mixed up when talking about a Director of the CIA on the United Fruit Company's board. Smith joined the UFC in October 1954, a few months after PBSUCCESS. --RaiderAspect (talk) 09:42, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Fired or Resigned?

To be clear, Allan Dulles was asked to resign. Effectively, what this means is that he was able to keep his retirement benefits. Recall that the post Comey Acting FBI Director, McCabe, was fired by Trump and that meant he lost his retirement benefits. So there is a significant difference between being fired or resigning. More relevantly, Dulles was quite fond of Joe and JFK. I see absolutely no motive to kill JFK for firing him, when that did not happen factually. Second, the JFK library holds many of the kind and unnecessary words Dulles and JFK exchanged. Third, Dulles was surprised when JFK selected him as CIA Director and Dulles expressed a desire to retire instead of continuing his extensive public service. Fourth, we don't know why he was ultimately "forced" to resign, but insofar as it relates to the Bay of Pigs, JFK knew about the Bay of Pigs, approved it, and refused to send in air support -- so we are to believe that Dulles was blamed for this? I don't think so. Instead, I think he was fired for supporting a French-controlled Algeria contrary to JFK's and Charles De Gaullle's wishes, so there was a political difference between Dulles and JFK about what should happen to Algeria -- that is sufficient reason to ask for someone's resignation. 2601:989:4582:670:13:648E:D8D9:CE09 (talk) 20:08, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

MKUltra

Allen Dulles put his son, wounded with shrapnel in his head during the Korean War, under the care of a torture scientist working for MKUltra. This is documented by David Talbot, whose source was Dulles' daughter (the sister of Allen Macy Dulles II, the victim/son of the article subject Allen Dulles). Its remarkable how this article doesnt include so many of the depraved, traitorous crimes that Allen Dulles committed. 2601:5CF:8000:6B60:883B:6D7:A3A7:2EA8 (talk) 00:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)