Talk:Afro-Arabs

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Afro-Arab → Zanj OR Black People#Arabia – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:43, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Original research , the term Afro-Arabs or Arabs of Africa "عرب أفريقيا" means arab countries in Africa Continent [1] [2] not arabs of sub-sahara origin, we simply use Zanj or "زنج" to refer to sub sahara ancestry --Prince jasim ali (talk) 14:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. Both the proposed titles are already occupied. What you are suggesting is a merge/redirect, not to move the present article. Try Wikipedia:Proposed mergers instead. Jenks24 (talk) 06:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Remove List of Afro-Arabs section

The section List of Afro-Arabs should be replace with a category FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:46, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality ?

@Brigade Piron: in order to help other editors to fix the problem you mentioned, could you please explain why you think the article is not neutral ? Thanks in advance, Rsk6400 (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Rsk, apologies - I left a summary but I see these are no longer included within the edit. I think the almost total lack of any reference to the Arab slave trade as a major cause of African migration to the Arab world is a major omission here which leaves the article with a POV-slant. This is the most important.

Although it is much less important, I think that "Afro-Arabs are Arabs of full or partial Black African descent" is also incorrect and potentially POV. The term Afro-Arab is widely used in African historiography to refer to the African Muslim "Swahili" peoples who spread across the region from the Zanj in the 1880s at the time of the slave trade (see here). The arabisé currently depicted in the image from the Congo is a good example of this and would probably not have described himself as an "Arab". In this context, Afro-Afrabs are Black Africans descent who have been influenced by Arab culture."—Brigade Piron (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Your first point is definitely worth looking into and finding the right sources to discuss.

Regarding your second point, I believe the definition of who is an Arab is important to consider. An Afro-Arab may not truly be an Arab if one sticks to an ethnic/racial definition that encompasses the natives of the Arabian Peninsula. However, if you subscribe to a broader definition of Arabs that considers language and culture, Afro-Arabs can be considered to be Arab. As an Arab, I personally believe in the latter. I think the phrasing you quoted is appropriate, even taking into account the historiographic convention you referred to. M89565c (talk) 18:40, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

"even taking into account the historiographic convention you referred to."

It would not in fact, be appropriate, in the context of the Afro-Arab Swahili to refer to them as 'Arab'. They do not and have never really regarded themselves as 'Arabs', with their revolt against the Sultan of Zanzibar and the subsequent pogrom against Arab dominance and colonization of the Swahili coast being the best example of their non-Arab character. They are an indigenous East African people that consider themselves kin to their Tanzanian countrymen, and they certainly do not consider themselves to be of the same people as the people of Saudi Arabia, Jordan or Iraq. Joehannaus (talk) 02:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Brigade Piron was saying that the term "Afro-Arab" is often used to refer specifically to Swahili people of East Africa, and that the sentence he quoted at the start of his second paragraph should be changed because of this.

I agree with you and Brigade Piron when you say that the Swahili are not Arabs, but I don't think the sentence he quoted needs to be changed. My reason is that I don't think the association of the term "Afro-Arab" with the Swahili people is exclusive enough to merit the change; I think the term "Afro-Arab" can be associated with other groups of full or partial black African descent that identify as and can be considered Arabs. M89565c (talk) 04:19, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The people we call Swahili definitely considered themselves Arabs in the past. Srnec (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Just like Afro-Asians are persons of mixed Asian and African ancestry. What I know completely is that the Arabs refuse to be called white or black (Afro), they consider themselves only "Arabs" or a synonym like nationality "Saudi" this applies to the naturalized Afro- Saudis. Sudanese are excluded some who consider themselves Afro-Arab. Removing nationalities and replacing them with those who live in the Arab world would be good.Sarah SchneiderCH (talk)

Should this article even exist?

What is the justification for the existence of this article? The term "Afro-Arab" feels way to Americo-centric and is irrelevant to the actual ethnic, color and "racial" divisions that exist. The term is much too ambiguous outside of an American context, considering that there are literally millions of non-Black Arabs who live in the continent of Africa and have lived there for generations (in the case of Egyptians and Arabized Berbers and perhaps some other groups, they have been there since the dawn of recorded history). If the article refers specifically to "Black Arabs", I believe that is what its title should be, otherwise it makes it sound like its making the racist claim that Arabized Berbers or Egyptians aren't "really African".

But even then, it sounds like too broad a group which is not well-defined, due to the range of skin colors in the Arab world without there necessarily being a clear racial divide, as well as the difficulty of talking of someone who is "of African descent" when there has constantly been movement of people between Africa and the Middle East over the millenia, and there have been dark-skinned people in the Middle East for thousands of years. It's completely uncomparable to groups like African Americans or Europeans of Black African descent. And that's without delving into the complicated relationship between "blackness/Africanness" and "Arabness" in countries like Sudan and Mauritania.

I believe this entire article should be erased, and if there is a need, it would be better to create articles for Black communities or individuals in particular Arab countries and their unique culture and/or history. I would be glad to hear people's opinion about this. --Zofthej (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with much of this comment. I am an Arab, although I have no known African ancestry, black or otherwise. I do not think the term "Afro-Arab" is America-centric, or that the heritage of non-black North Africans is disparaged by being defined separately from that of Black African Arabs. While there is not always a clear racial divide in Arab societies, these divides are most certainly visible in others. There are many distinct groups of Black African descent in the Arab world, and this article does contain links to the individual articles of several of these.

While the term "Afro-Arab" may seem large and ill-defined, I believe it is appropriate for a collection of different but related identities. I think this article should also be used as a place to cover the extensive history of migration and admixture between Arabs and Black Africans. M89565c (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

• The term doesn't seem to be widely used in sources, but I came here wondering why Sudan is barely mentioned, surely having the largest population that could fall under this term? FunkMonk (talk) 18:38, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

That’s like saying “should black people exist” ? There’s always some debate over mixed Afro people… we exist buddy 2601:8C:B80:6660:DA9:9CD8:D4A7:B44B (talk) 09:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This article should not exist, the logic for why is simple, it’s inherently racist, Afro arab makes it seem like it’s saying black arabs aren’t really as arab as other arabs which is strange and racist ,a Moroccan or Lebanese person for example may have no ancestry from any of the arab tribes that originated in Arabia or even stepped foot in Arabia but Wikipedia doesnt call them white/Caucasian/straight hair-Arabs lol. On the other hand there are Arabs who come from famous and ancient Arab tribes that have “Afro features” and a longer family history of arab culture but this article undermines this. The king of Jordan has a white European non arab mother, should we make an article that says euro-arab? It wouldn’t happen, why? The colorism is showing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:2A00:8730:900C:FE61:D5C6:97F7 (talk) 05:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)