Talk:Africa (Saint-Saëns)/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 08:12, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. AM

Review comments

Lead section / infobox

Link Op. (Opus number); compositional (Musical composition); movement (Movement (music)); G minor In the infobox).. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Despite being premiered – the date of the premiere would be of use here. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) soon performed - ‘soon afterwards performed’ to improve the prose? Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) himself seems redundant imo. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) lesser-known work – in comparison with what? I think something is needed here. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC) I’m unclear why the number of movements is mentioned in the infobox—surely such a work doesn’t have movements? Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Consider listing the location of the premiere (the Concerts du Châtelet) in the infobox. That's not a location; that's a concert series which took place, presumably, at the Théâtre du Châtelet, but this is not explicitly mentioned by any source. intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Understood. AM More comments to follow shortly. I will cross out comments once they have been addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Background

Consider changing the title from Background to ‘History’, as the section provides more than background information connected with the work. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Unlink Cairo (MOS:OL). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) To avoid sandwiching (MOS:SANDWICH), the superfluous painting of Cairo is best removed. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Saint-Saëns and Durand should be introduced, linked and given their full names at the start of the main part of the article (i.e. in the first paragraph of this section). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Link composition (Musical composition); depression (Depression (mood); fantasia. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) incapacitated – I would avoid using this word. Saint-Saens never used it in the letter referred to, and it could be misinterpreted by readers. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) sketching the composition – consider amending to ‘sketching out the composition’ or perhaps simply ‘the composition’. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Saint-Saëns began sketching the composition in March 1891 while he was in Cairo and completed it by 1 April - This statement appears to be uncited, and also gives no information about how long Saint-Saens took to compose the work—presumably the reason why the sentence is included. {There needs to be an indication of how long was spent between "March" and "1 April"—a week? a fortnight? Amitchell125 (talk) 07:33, 10 July 2023 (UTC) I can't find a precise date, so I've amended the sentence to "completed within a month". intforce (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC) The score was first published in Paris by Durand. - Ratner provides dates for the work’s publication, which I would include. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) embraced - is idiomatic and so should be avoided (see MOS:IDIOM. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) performed by Roger-Miclos herself – why herself? Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Analysis

Because of copyright issues, the external link in this section cannot be used, and needs to be deleted (see WP:COPYVIOEL). The linked video was provided to YouTube by Warner Classics and is there not a copyright violation intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Understood. AM Link musicologist; folk-like (folk music); key (Key (music)); tempo; G major; sixteenth note (a term that may be unfamiliar to some readers —I would add 'semiquaver' in brackets; octave. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Link cad. (Cadenza), consider leaving it unabbreviated (see MOS:ABBR). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Arab music has a link (Arabic music), but as the genre is so diverse, I am unclear the term is appropriate here. Sadly that is what the source says: "The effect of such successions resembles not only that of Hungarian rhapsodies but also Arab music" intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Understood, but my point is valid, and I wouldn't be the only reader/editor to query the text here. One way forward here is to quote the text (as you have done above), which would make it clear where the phrase originates from. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC) It's perhaps best to remove this part entirely. intforce (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC) Avoid counterbalance (as it is an idiom). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Instrumentation

Link range (Range (music)); cross-rhythms (Cross-beat); autograph (Autograph (manuscript), in the caption). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) A typical performance takes around 9 to 11 minutes - is uncited. I can not find a reliable source which gives a direct figure. If the recordings are primary sources, I'm not sure if the state constitutes WP:SYNTH. intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) As the information can be found in the Recordings section, it is not needed here. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC) Resolved  – intforce (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Legacy

Unlink New York (MOS:OL). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Link critic. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) The link to political resentments doesn’t lead to where readers might expect it to. I would amend the text here to something more like the linked article’s title. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) in the shadows is idiomatic and so should be avoided. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) "exquisite finesse", its "captivating and stylish finish", and its "truly ingenious details in the orchestration" - I cannot access Stegemann, do we know who praised the work in this way? Stegemann cites "L'Art musical" XXX/20 (25.10.1891) intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) In the years after; locations around the world, including – as the dates and places are given in the text, both these phrases seem redundant. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Throughout his correspondence – Throughout implies “all the way through” or “during all of”, neither of which can possibly be the case here. I would replace the phrase with something like ‘In much of his correspondence during this period’, or something similar. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) I’m unclear why the second paragraph is placed here and not in within the first section, which discusses the premiere and its aftermath. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) his fifth piano concerto – currently this sounds as if Taubert wrote it. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) perhaps also due to political resentments – other reasons are presented in the sources (e.g. that the composer hadn’t been to Germany for many years), which I would include. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) The last sentence in this section needs to be cited, as it is debatable. I remember reading this somewhere during my research, but I can't remember where. Oh well, I removed the sentence. intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Recordings

The table's Source column consists of external links, and external links are not supposed to be placed within the text of the article. The external links are to commercial websites, and so should not be used as references. Also, there is no indication that the table is complete. Other GAs on famous compositions have either not included a discussion of recordings (e.g. Violin Concerto (Mendelssohn); The Planets; String Quartets, Op. 50 (Haydn)), or have focussed on a few historic recordings (e.g. Requiem (Fauré); Magnificat (Bach)).It may be easier to cut this section out. Further information—WP:LINKSTOAVOID (#5) and WP:ELPOINTS (#2). I've removed the external links; since these are in essence primary sources on their own, a citation for each may not be necessary. intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) first concerted works to be recorded with its composer in the role of soloist – needs to be paraphrased, as it appears to have been taken directly from the source. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Link rpm (Revolutions per minute). Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) More comments to follow. AM

References

Ref 7 (Pasler), Ref 8 (Pasler), Ref 14 (Ratner) and Ref 15 (Pasler) should read ‘pp’, not p, as they are page ranges. Resolved  – intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) What makes you think Ref 18 20 (Stephenson) is a reliable source? I sadly can not find a better source. If desired, the source can be removed and the sentence rephrased to cite the 1904 recording itself. intforce (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC) Happily, this source, p.281 appears to have what you need. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC) Good find! intforce (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Sources
There is a url available for Ratner (here), which I would consider adding (not required for GA). I would also consider adding this url for Flynn, and this url from the Internet Archive for Pasler.(registration needed).

On hold

I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 11 July to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 20:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Passing now

Everything looks sorted, many thanks on producing an informative and well-written article. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.