Talk:Abu al-Fadl, Ramle

Your text Stored version Line 1: Line 1: - Abu al-Fadl (أبو الفضل/السطرية in Arabic) was a village in the district of al-Ramla, about 13 km Southeast of Jaffa in, what was until 1948, Palestine. The village was also known as al-Satariyya. In 1945/44 the village had a population of 510. The village land was owned by the Islamic waqf of al-Fadl ibn al-'Abbas, possibly a cousin of the prophet Muhammed, after whom the village was named. + Abu al-Fadl (أبو الفضل/السطرية in Arabic) is a district of al-Ramla. It is located 75 meters above sea level. The village is also known as al-Satariyya. In 1945/44 the village had a population of 510. The village land was owned by the Islamic waqf of al-Fadl ibn al-'Abbas, possibly a cousin of the prophet Muhammed, after whom the village was named.

- The villagers probably left their homes in the second week of May 1948 during Operation Barak. This campaign was undertaken by the Giv'ati Brigade commanded by Shimon Avidan; its objective was to clear the villages South of Tel Aviv and "cause a wandering of the inhabitants of the the smaller settlements in the area". Each ground assault started with a mortar bombardment, followed by the expulsion of the remaining residents and the demoliton of houses. + Abu al-Fadl was occupied by Isreali Troops in May 9, 1948 and was "Ethnically Cleansed" in the Arab-Israeli war. The district was taken under the First stage of Operation Dani. Either Har'el Brigade or Giva'ti Brigade commenced the genocide. Abu al-Fadl was mostly destroyed except for five houses which remained standing. Villagers are able to trace their roots back to nomadic Bedouins from nearby Khan Yunis. Walid Khalidi said in reference to the occupation.

- The village was probably permanently occupied during the first stage of Operation Dani, 9-12 July, 1948. This offensive, commanded by Yitzhak Rabin, resulted in the expulsion of some 70,000 people from the neighbouring towns of Lydda and al-Ramla. + "Of the original village houses, no more than five still stand, deserted and nearly collapsing. One of these houses, located at the edge of a citrus grove, is made of cement blocks, with rectangular doors and windows and a tiled, sloping roof". - - "Of the original village houses, no more than five still stand, deserted and nearly collapsing. One of these houses, located at the edge of a citrus grove, is made of cement blocks, with rectangular doors and windows and a tiled, sloping roof. Another house, composed of three units, is located in the middle of a citrus grove. A few cypress trees, castor oil (ricinus) plants, and cactuses grow on the site, and Israeli buildings have been constructed near by. The surrounding lands are cultivated by Israelis.". Padres Hana (talk) 21:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

What is Talmey Menashe today??

I redirred Talmey Menashe to Be'er Ya'akov, as that was where Talmei-Menashe was redirred to. However, Khalidi says that Talmey Menashe has been absorbed into Rishon LeZion. So what is correct? Huldra (talk) 23:07, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

The current map shows Talmey Menashe on the east side of Be'er Ya'akov but it isn't listed by the IBS as a separate locality, so it must be a suburb of Be'er Ya'akov. Anyway it is on the far side of Be'er Ya'akov from Rishon LeZion, so it is hard to see how it could be part of Rishon LeZion. Also Talmey Menashe is now on the exact location where Abu al-Fadl was before. Zero^talk 09:44, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Per my understanding, and see here (Hebrew) - [1] - Talmey Menashe is still an Moshav. There is a neighborhood in Be'er Ya'akov that was built on some Talmey Menashe farm land (and is alternatively named as Talmey Menashe neighborhood - which causes confusion). The Moshav itself is under the regional council of Be'er Ya'Akov - but still is a moshav.Icewhiz (talk) 13:10, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

It sounds as if Talmey Menashe needs its own article, then? Huldra (talk) 20:38, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

There is on on hewiki.Icewhiz (talk) 02:19, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Icewhiz, ok, you wouldn't mind translating it, to a new article here, would you? Huldra (talk) 20:20, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

@Huldra: Done, just because you asked. I don't do geographic locations usually - and working without the automated content translation (on the translation tool) - is a chore (getting all the internal links working etc., references - the text is easy to rewrite, all the stuff around is a chore).Icewhiz (talk) 13:00, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! I think it still need some cat.s , or template, though? Huldra (talk) 20:30, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Huldra: @Icewhiz: To see the precise location of Abu al-Fadl, see map "13-15.1942" here (click "+" at the bottom to bring up the list of maps). Grid 135/150. In this map of 1955, exactly the same cluster of buildings is labelled "Talmei Menashe". A 1957 update shows extra buildings and roads. From this we can see that it is correct to write that Talmei was founded on the site of Abu al-Fadl. Zero^talk 18:56, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I cannot see any on the 2 first maps, only the last. Which indeed shows us Talmey Menashe at 135/150, Huldra (talk) 20:30, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Sometimes the maps at NLI take time to load, or won't load until you try repeatedly or use a different browser. By the way, this useful source that Icewhiz brought gives Abu Fadl as the former name of Talmey Menashe. Zero^talk 22:05, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree regarding the village proper (the built up area). Note that the more complex issue here (as with most Ottoman era land in Israel and outside of Israel) is determining farm land claims - which are for starters a form of a lease that is gained from working the land (and continuing to do so), are usually not registered exactly (not surveyed, described generally), claims being maximal, and lack of accurate maps. The farm lands of this particular village extended quite a bit according to sources, but there are issues of reliability and location. Some villages also had lands quite distant from the village (abu kishak IIRC). It is from the farm land that you get to Rishon Letziyon here.Icewhiz (talk) 19:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)